[lictor616]

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 07:15 AM, said:

I question the veracity of your quotes as applied to world wide jewry, never mind the ones in Canada. And society seems to have actually advanced quite a bit over the last some decades, despite the presence of all those Jews. The aspects of society which I find most troubling, where I think we have fallen apart somewhat, can be traced to other sources, such as the Liberals trying to destroy English culture in their naive and stupid view that this would lead to less conflict with Francophones.

I agree, however you should also take account of the correlation between Jews and "liberalism". Jews are overwhelmingly majority liberal, and many of the liberal crochet and crazes are actually constructed by jews. Previously I named Marcuse and many other creators of cultural marxism (which is the foremost destroyer of "English culture" as well as european civilizationcraft).

I think we do ourselves a great disservice when we refuse to identify who's who and what's what.

[JB Globe]

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

I have never claimed "Islam is evil". What I am stating is that the cultural values espoused by huge numbers of those who interpret Islam today are socially backward, often to the point of barbarism,

Well thank you for clarifying which ignorant and false belief you subscribe to.

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

Do you have some kind of hack in to my computer to know what web sites I visit?

If you're so learned about Islam how come you never quote any information from a respected scholar on the subject?

News reports on websites and analysis from biased sources doesn't count as serious study - and the only way you could even attempt to make a statement like "Islam is backward" is if you have done some serious study, which you haven't.

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

nor have you or anyone else attempted to challenge any of the facts presented with regard to Islam.

I rebut your arguments (which often do not contain facts, or contain facts taken out of context) on a regular basis. This Goebbelesque tactic of repeating something often enough in the hopes that people will start believing it speaks to the fact that you really don't have much of a case to stand on.

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

No one can know what is in another man's heart. You think you know Islam because you know a few Muslims and they're polite to you. Most people are polite to your face, and very few talk openly about how nice it would be if all the Jews died of a plague in front of a Jew.

Did you really just say "no one can no what is in another man's heart" then in the next sentence, claim to know what is in another man's heart?

It's really amusing when you claim to know what goes on in the heads of people you've never met. Perhaps you don't know this, but I'm a filmmaker and writer, I interview people on a regular basis, I'm willing to put good money down that I have much more experience speaking about difficult subjects with people than you do - meaning I'm pretty good at getting people to open up with how they really feel - because it's part of my job.

Also - how can you even speculate when you're not privy to the conversations? Things have gotten quite heated, and sometimes ugly, but usually all of us leave the convo with our perceptions changed (usually for the better) so I can say that Muslims (much like most people) seem to be much more rational and open-minded than you.

So please spare me this "I know best because I'm a White Nationalist who sees the truth in the world that everyone else is blind to" nonsense. Especially when your basing your opinion on "what Muslims REALLY think" on one column in a statistical study . . .

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

But I'm not talking about anecdotal information. I'm talking about the world at large, and Muslims as a group. And if half the Muslims in Canada desire Sharia law that does not strike me as an indication of their integration.

This is what I mean when I say you take things out of context . . .

If you're referring to the same poll I'm thinking of, that poll also found that Muslim-Canadians also feel strong allegience to Canada, take pride in the rule of law, good government, and Multiculturalism, to the tune of over 80% - which is actually pretty equal to their non-Muslim counterparts. But you wouldn't mention that part, because it doesn't fit in with your "Muslims are backward" theory.

Also consider that the support for Sharia law is for Sharia law for non-criminal disputes like family matters - that 50% is not advocating for a separate justice system.

Also consider close to half of Jews would like Jewish law for non-criminal disputes as well - are Jews backward as well? Wait - your White Nationalist-self doesn't need to answer that one.

So while I don't agree with Sharia law being used at all, this issue is not as bad as your making it out to be (which really is par for the course - Molehills ---> Mountains).

Now either you're unaware of the context of the fact that "50% of Canadian Muslims support Sharia" or you're deliberately excluding it.

So you're either ignorant about Islam in Canada, or completely dishonest about it.

Take your pick.

This post has been edited by JB Globe: 30 August 2009 - 01:56 PM

[Argus]

lictor616, on Aug 30 2009, 01:17 PM, said:

I agree, however you should also take account of the correlation between Jews and "liberalism". Jews are overwhelmingly majority liberal, and many of the liberal crochet and crazes are actually constructed by jews. Previously I named Marcuse and many other creators of cultural marxism (which is the foremost destroyer of "English culture" as well as european civilizationcraft).

I think we do ourselves a great disservice when we refuse to identify who's who and what's what.

Jews, as a group, have tended to favour education. One can hardly criticize them for that. And as a group, the Left, is primarily made up of those who are post-secondary grads. They do, after all, have more time on their hands to bother themselves over political philosophy and how to socially engineer society so as to be more equitable.

So what do you want to do? Pass laws again anyone with an education and a soft heart and head?

It is a fundamental aspect of human nature that people who have a hardscrabble existence tend to be a lot less concerned with the other fellow's problems, or with what they would see as irrelevant and minor issues which do not affect their own ability to put food on the table.

Let someone grow in comfort, safety, and relative luxury, however, never knowing want or need or danger, and they tend to get soft-headed and soft-hearted and start getting silly ideas about helping people to have the same life they do. That is not, after all, a bad thing. The problem really lies in their philosophies and beliefs not having much of a grounding in cold, hard reality.

[lictor616]

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 06:18 PM, said:

Jews, as a group, have tended to favour education. One can hardly criticize them for that. And as a group, the Left, is primarily made up of those who are post-secondary grads. They do, after all, have more time on their hands to bother themselves over political philosophy and how to socially engineer society so as to be more equitable.

So what do you want to do? Pass laws again anyone with an education and a soft heart and head?

It is a fundamental aspect of human nature that people who have a hardscrabble existence tend to be a lot less concerned with the other fellow's problems, or with what they would see as irrelevant and minor issues which do not affect their own ability to put food on the table.

Let someone grow in comfort, safety, and relative luxury, however, never knowing want or need or danger, and they tend to get soft-headed and soft-hearted and start getting silly ideas about helping people to have the same life they do. That is not, after all, a bad thing. The problem really lies in their philosophies and beliefs not having much of a grounding in cold, hard reality.

Well again you're straying from the fact that Jews do think tribally (which is certainly a very natural and good thing... something we gentiles lack, and lack to our great undoing). But again, we have to see if their behavior and acts HELP this country or HURT IT.

Many of the anti-discrimination nonsense is heavily influenced by such baneful organizations as the ADL of Bnai Brith and other so called human rights groups... Many of these same organizations are ENEMIES of the West and our culture...

anyways, I really think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one...

[jbg]

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 07:18 PM, said:

Jews, as a group, have tended to favour education. One can hardly criticize them for that. And as a group, the Left, is primarily made up of those who are post-secondary grads. They do, after all, have more time on their hands to bother themselves over political philosophy and how to socially engineer society so as to be more equitable.

So what do you want to do? Pass laws again anyone with an education and a soft heart and head?

True as far as it goes. I think, however that Jewish liberalism owes more to the historical animus right-wingers (think Lictor666) have towards Jews. Allegiances and alliances often last far beyond the time of their usefulness.

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 07:18 PM, said:

It is a fundamental aspect of human nature that people who have a hardscrabble existence tend to be a lot less concerned with the other fellow's problems, or with what they would see as irrelevant and minor issues which do not affect their own ability to put food on the table.

I find that totally at variance with my experience, at least as to the first phrase. They are often far more concerned with the problems of others, though not ones they see as minor or irrelevant.

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 07:18 PM, said:

Let someone grow in comfort, safety, and relative luxury, however, never knowing want or need or danger, and they tend to get soft-headed and soft-hearted and start getting silly ideas about helping people to have the same life they do. That is not, after all, a bad thing. The problem really lies in their philosophies and beliefs not having much of a grounding in cold, hard reality.

Actually, many who grow up in comfort have little concern for others or their problems. Abe Lincoln was a lot more compassionate for the "little man" than Paul Martin ever was.

[Argus]

JB Globe, on Aug 30 2009, 04:43 PM, said:

If you're so learned about Islam how come you never quote any information from a respected scholar on the subject?

Well, I didn't really see a need to. But simply to please you, let us consider the kindly, peaceful words of Sheikh Abdul Rahman Al-Sudais, the Imam of the Grand Mosque of Mecca itself!

Those whom Allah cursed, got angry with, and turned into monkeys and pigs, the tyrant worshippers among the Jewish aggressors and criminal Zionists. Their course is supported by the advocates of usury and worshippers of the Cross, as well as by those who are infatuated with them and influenced by their rotten ideas and poisonous culture among the advocates of secularism and Westernization.... The enemies of Muslims among the atheists insist on their arrogance and aggression against our people and our holy places in Chechnya? The idol-worshipping Hindus indulge in their open hatred against our brothers and holy places...in Muslim Kashmir, threatening an imminent danger and a fierce war in the whole Indian sub-continent?... O Allah, support our brother Mujahedeen for your sake and the oppressed everywhere. O Allah, support them in Palestine, Kashmir, and Chechnya. O Allah, we ask you to support our Palestinian brothers in Palestine against the aggressor Jews and usurper Zionists. O Allah, the Jews have oppressed, terrorized, and indulged in tyranny and corruption. O Allah, deal with them for they are within your power.


One can just feel the sense of peace and interfaith harmony, can't one?

And then there's Yousef al-Qaradawi.
Now according to Salim Mansur in the Sun:

"Within the Arab Sunni world the Egyptian-born Sheikh Qaradawi, 80, of Qatar, is the face of institutionalized Islam. He is the closest to what might pass for a titular head of Muslims akin to the Pope. Qaradawi's words, now broadcast by television network al-Jazeerah, are taken as authoritative pronouncements of Islam. He is the "spiritual" leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, a movement formed to repudiate freedom and democracy, and a defender of Islam's war against the West by any means, including suicide bombings."

"Oh Allah, take your enemies, the enemies of Islam. Oh Allah, take the Jews, the treacherous aggressors. Oh Allah, take this profligate, cunning, arrogant band of people. Oh Allah, they have spread much tyranny and corruption in the land. Pour Your wrath upon them, oh our God. Lie in wait for them. Oh Allah, You annihilated the people of Thamoud at the hand of a tyrant, and You annihilated the people of 'Aad with a fierce, icy gale. Oh Allah, You annihilated the people Thamoud at the hand of a tyrant, You annihilated the people of 'Aad with a fierce, icy gale, and You destroyed the Pharaoh and his soldiers — oh Allah, take this oppressive, tyrannical band of people. Oh Allah, take this oppressive, Jewish, Zionist band of people. Oh Allah, do not spare a single one of them. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them, down to the very last one."[

He also, incidentally, issued a fatwa against pokeman, so I guess he can't be all bad.

Quote

News reports on websites and analysis from biased sources doesn't count as serious study - and the only way you could even attempt to make a statement like "Islam is backward" is if you have done some serious study, which you haven't.

I suppose just hearing all those reports from biased sources, like the CBC, BBC, Reuters, et all, about all the barbarism in Muslim countries, the brutality, the hanging of teenage girls from cranes in Iran, the family gatherings to murder teenage girls seen as dishonouring them, the removal of the clitoris' from girls, the bedsheets they force women into, even shoving them back into burning buildings if they try to escape without them, the machine gunning of schoolgirls for daring to try to get educated, the national laws carrying death penalties for insulting God, or for trying to convert to another religion, I guess all the thousands and thousands of such reports I've read over my lifetime, the bombing of airplanes, the cutting off of prisoners' heads, combined with the thousands of wild-eyed loony Muslim wackos brandishing Ak-47s and grenades might have influenced me to some degree. Maybe.

Quote

Did you really just say "no one can no what is in another man's heart" then in the next sentence, claim to know what is in another man's heart?

No, but I can easily see how you haven't the intelligence to have properly mastered comprehension.

Quote

It's really amusing when you claim to know what goes on in the heads of people you've never met.

You mean like you do?

Quote

Perhaps you don't know this, but I'm a filmmaker and writer,

How many films or books have you produced without a government grant? I tend to call people like you "welfare writers", because you haven't got the talent or skill to produce anything anyone will buy without the government forking over money for subsidies first.

I also am a writer. I bought my house, in large measure, out of my writing. But I've never taken a penny from the government. Perhaps that's among the many differences between us.

Quote

Also - how can you even speculate when you're not privy to the conversations?

Can you BE any more inane? Speculation is just that. It does not require one being privy to any particular event.

Quote

So please spare me this "I know best because I'm a White Nationalist who sees the truth in the world that everyone else is blind to" nonsense.

I don't think I've ever made any of the claims in that sentence. But if you allow me to speculate here, I'd say that someone so blindly addicted to his own rabid ideological views would have no trouble lying about what someone else says, and then condemning them for it. So maybe you actually do believe what you wrote there, though that just makes you a fool, as opposed to a liar.

In either event your words are meaningless drivel.

[jbg]

Good summation of Lictor's views (in someone else's more direct words) (link):

You cannot find a single nation, a single country or people in the whole wide world who likes the Jews. Hatred of them is in the hearts of all people. If you say to someone - whatever his religion or faith may be – "you Jew," he will not like it one little bit. He will consider this a curse, an offense and dishonor, regardless of his religion. No one likes them. Allah instilled hatred towards them in the hearts of His servants. They took control over the Muslims. - Sheikh Ali Saud Al-Kuleib on Kuwait TV, April 29, 2005

[JB Globe]

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

Well, I didn't really see a need to. But simply to please you, let us consider the kindly, peaceful words of Sheikh Abdul Rahman Al-Sudais, the Imam of the Grand Mosque of Mecca itself!

Those whom Allah cursed, got angry with, and turned into monkeys and pigs, the tyrant worshippers among the Jewish aggressors and criminal Zionists. Their course is supported by the advocates of usury and worshippers of the Cross, as well as by those who are infatuated with them and influenced by their rotten ideas and poisonous culture among the advocates of secularism and Westernization.... The enemies of Muslims among the atheists insist on their arrogance and aggression against our people and our holy places in Chechnya? The idol-worshipping Hindus indulge in their open hatred against our brothers and holy places...in Muslim Kashmir, threatening an imminent danger and a fierce war in the whole Indian sub-continent?... O Allah, support our brother Mujahedeen for your sake and the oppressed everywhere. O Allah, support them in Palestine, Kashmir, and Chechnya. O Allah, we ask you to support our Palestinian brothers in Palestine against the aggressor Jews and usurper Zionists. O Allah, the Jews have oppressed, terrorized, and indulged in tyranny and corruption. O Allah, deal with them for they are within your power.

You pulled this from either Islam-Watch or Militant-Islam-Monitor: both are blatantly anti-Islamic websites, which goes to prove my earlier claim that one of the two primary sources of information on Islam for you are biased sources. I'll discuss the quotes directly in the next segment.

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

And then there's Yousef al-Qaradawi.
Now according to Salim Mansur in the Sun:

"Within the Arab Sunni world the Egyptian-born Sheikh Qaradawi, 80, of Qatar, is the face of institutionalized Islam. He is the closest to what might pass for a titular head of Muslims akin to the Pope. Qaradawi's words, now broadcast by television network al-Jazeerah, are taken as authoritative pronouncements of Islam. He is the "spiritual" leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, a movement formed to repudiate freedom and democracy, and a defender of Islam's war against the West by any means, including suicide bombings."

"Oh Allah, take your enemies, the enemies of Islam. Oh Allah, take the Jews, the treacherous aggressors. Oh Allah, take this profligate, cunning, arrogant band of people. Oh Allah, they have spread much tyranny and corruption in the land. Pour Your wrath upon them, oh our God. Lie in wait for them. Oh Allah, You annihilated the people of Thamoud at the hand of a tyrant, and You annihilated the people of 'Aad with a fierce, icy gale. Oh Allah, You annihilated the people Thamoud at the hand of a tyrant, You annihilated the people of 'Aad with a fierce, icy gale, and You destroyed the Pharaoh and his soldiers — oh Allah, take this oppressive, tyrannical band of people. Oh Allah, take this oppressive, Jewish, Zionist band of people. Oh Allah, do not spare a single one of them. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them, down to the very last one."[

This article currently only exists on Jihad Watch, another blatantly anti-Islamic website. Again - you sit there and try and tell us that you don't get your info from amateurish, prejudiced websites, but you do. Now either your whole worldview is so warped that you don't believe these sites are biased (ie - you really do believe "Islam is backward," so a website that says as much isn't being biased, it's telling the truth in your warped world), or you know these sites are junk - but it's more important for you to "win" in a debate than it is to be truthful. Of course, now you've been outed, so I would hope that the few people here who still actually don't laugh when you write take you even less seriously.

But even if you pulled these quotes from the BBC, they're still accurate right? True - but the thing is they're not representative of all the world's Muslims.

I counter your two quotes from two Arab Sunni scholars with the Topkapi Declaration (part of the Amman Message) which was crafted and signed by hundreds of the world's most influential religious leaders and scholars (both Shia & Sunni, and representative by population of the Muslim world).

To summarize, the Declaration says that Muslims in Western countries have a duty to uphold the laws of the nations they reside in precisely because those nations allow them freedom of worship and social justice - they also need to take pride in these nations, be good neighbours and citizens, and defend these nations from aggressors, while acknowledging Islamophobia exists - it makes clear it is no justification for breaking the law. It also completely condemns terrorism.

The problem with your whole position on Islam is that you go overboard with confirmation bias (look it up, please). ie - you seek out information that confirms your prejudices and ignore or discredit information that goes against (hence why you spend so much time on anti-Islamic websites). Everyone does this SOMETIMES when it comes to SOME ISSUES, (we're all human) however, when it comes to Islam - you go above and beyond - you do this almost all the time.

These quotes are a perfect example - you used biased sites to cherry pick two quotes from two religious figures, and tried to present them as representative of the opinions of 1.5 billion Muslims. Now either you think that's enough proof of Islam's "backwardness" (because you never actually had to argue a point like this in a moderated setting, or in an academic paper), or you know it's not enough proof but you posted it anyways because it's more important to you to "win" than it is to argue honestly. Because if you did argue honestly, you might have to ask yourself the tough questions that many of us have had to do throughout our lives either in our personal lives, school, or professionally: "Am I basing my views on sound information? Have my life experiences ingrained biases in me that I might not be aware of? How are these biases influencing how I perceive reality? Am I reinforcing these biases in terms of what information I seek out/don't seek out?"

It doesn't appear like you've ever really taken a long, hard look in the mirror before. And that's sad because it limits your growth as a human being - no matter what your opinions may be.

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

I suppose just hearing all those reports from biased sources, like the CBC, BBC, Reuters, et all, about all the barbarism in Muslim countries, the brutality, the hanging of teenage girls from cranes in Iran, the family gatherings to murder teenage girls seen as dishonouring them, the removal of the clitoris' from girls, the bedsheets they force women into, even shoving them back into burning buildings if they try to escape without them, the machine gunning of schoolgirls for daring to try to get educated, the national laws carrying death penalties for insulting God, or for trying to convert to another religion, I guess all the thousands and thousands of such reports I've read over my lifetime, the bombing of airplanes, the cutting off of prisoners' heads, combined with the thousands of wild-eyed loony Muslim wackos brandishing Ak-47s and grenades might have influenced me to some degree. Maybe.

Of course they have influenced you. If I spent my lifetime only taking in negative information about a group of people, I would probably end up with a negative view of them. But to only hear negative information about Islam also means ignoring all of the positive and NORMATIVE (key word here) information about Islam. It also means ignoring the same kinds of stories of brutality perpetuated by non-Muslims (be they Christian, atheist, Hindu, Jew, etc), because acknowledging that non-Muslims can be just as brutal as Muslims, means that Muslims aren't inherently more brutal than non-Muslims.

And most importantly it means ignoring the context these incidents occur in. ie - it's very disingenuous (see: dishonest) to imply that machine gunning schoolgirls is commonplace throughout Islam, when such an attack has only occurred in Afghanistan, at the hands of the Taliban, which does not have popular support even among Afghanis.

What information you don't pick up from anti-Islamic websites, you filter through your already prejudiced worldview.

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

You mean like you do?

Actually, my opinions of your personal life are formed by what you've written here . . .

You regularly post about how terrible Islam is, and how Muslims are threatening to destroy Canada.

When pressed on your personal interaction with Muslims, you have two responses:

1 - You live in a part of Ottawa with a high Lebanese-Canadian population.

2 - Some of your ex-coworkers used to be Muslim.

It's telling that you never said you have had any friends who are Muslims, just casual acquaintances. That's important because usually people will not casually open up about potentially explosive topics like religion and/or its relationship to violence with people they don't know well, or who are of a different religion/ethnicity (especially the ethnicity to which most Islamophobes belong). What that tells me is that you have never had an opportunity to engage in an honest and respectful discussion about these serious issues with Muslims and (here's the most important part) see things from their perspective, even if you don't necessarily agree with them (having empathy is not the same thing as condoning something). This is why I say you simply do not understand how most Canadian Muslims live and view the world - because you don't really know any of them (and as I pointed out before, the information you do/don't seek out doesn't inform you of their experiences either).

Add to this your self-admited negative view on Islam - and these kinds of interactions seem as likely as a fundamentalist Christian having a casual heart-to-heart with an atheist at the local fruit market.

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

How many films or books have you produced without a government grant? I tend to call people like you "welfare writers", because you haven't got the talent or skill to produce anything anyone will buy without the government forking over money for subsidies first.

I think this qualifies as a gross assumption.

The three TV/film projects I have worked on start-to-finish since graduating recently did not receive any government grants. One was featured on the CBC, one is an educational product for Ontario schools, the other is being broadcast this fall in on Omni.

How does that foot taste?

As for "welfare writing" - I don't see anything wrong with new artists receiving some government assistance when they're first starting up, especially when those grants are given out based on merit. Many of our country's most well-known artists who make a lot of money now, had a helping hand in the past. If it wasn't for that, I don't think Canada would have much of an indigenous art scene - it's part of the problem of living next door to a cultural goliath.

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

I also am a writer. I bought my house, in large measure, out of my writing. But I've never taken a penny from the government. Perhaps that's among the many differences between us.

What do you write? And does it taste like Gouda or more like Blue Cheese?


Can you BE any more inane? Speculation is just that. It does not require one being privy to any particular event.

Argus, on Aug 30 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

I don't think I've ever made any of the claims in that sentence.

So you're not a White Nationalist? So what are you exactly? I mean - you think Islam is backward, as well as pretty much all non-Christian, non-Anglo cultures to varying degrees. And you have alluded to wanting discriminatory immigration and domestic policies, against non-Christian, non-Anglo people (including citizens). You've even made casual references to wanting to get rid of such people from Canada.

Of course, when asked to be more specific about these views, you never answer directly, which leads me to believe that you are in fact a White Nationalist, but you don't want to admit that to yourself, and/or to us because you realize that White Nationalism in the Canadian context is a reactive and discriminatory ideology, and you don't want to think of yourself/be thought of as a bad guy.

But hey, this could all be resolved if you actually laid out your beliefs, and actually said what you think the solutions are to the "Muslim/immigrant problem"

[jbg]

JB Globe -

Are you saying those statements weren't made?

[noahbody]

JB Globe, on Aug 29 2009, 12:49 PM, said:

The "facts" which you claim prove your "Islam is evil" idea are actually a prime example of confirmation bias.

Would you agree that a segment of the Islamic religion is uncivilized and incompatible with Canada?

[Argus]

JB Globe, on Aug 31 2009, 09:59 PM, said:

You pulled this from either Islam-Watch or Militant-Islam-Monitor: both are blatantly anti-Islamic website

And once again, rather than dealing with the actual matters under discussion you swan off into irrelevancies in a frantic effort at demonizing your opponent in the discussion. It doesn't matter to you what I say so much as why I dare say it, and how you can demonize me so as to divert attention from the actual discussion.

In point of fact, it came from the London Evening Standard, which was doing stories on his coming to the UK, and calling him a "hate preacher".

Not that that makes a bloody bit of difference, because the quote was exactly what you demanded. You asked for someone authoritative, and I give you the Imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, and you delete it without comment and launch into a sniveling complaint about where I got it. What kind of debating tactic do you call that, anyway?

Quote

But even if you pulled these quotes from the BBC, they're still accurate right? True - but the thing is they're not representative of all the world's Muslims.

No? Why not? Ten thousand fatal terrorist attacks since 911. Go over a list of the nations of the Organization of the Islamic Conference and what does a neutral eye see? Corruption, violence, barbarism, depravity, vicious, brutal religious intolerance and hatred. You gloss over the statements of Abdul Rahman Al-Sudais yet he was appointed by the Saudi government. I literally cannot imagine a western government appointing a man with such views to a high position, and then not being horrified and immediately firing him after he makes a speech like that. But hey, it's no big deal among Muslims. One can find any number of vicious, violent people like that in respected positions. Was it this thread or another one where last week someone posted a lively interview with a Kuwait university science professor discussing how anthrax could kill hundreds of thousands of Americans, and how gleeful he would be to see it done, and speculating on another weapons of mass destruction and how wonderful the world would be with all the Americans and Jews dead?

Not representative of the world's Muslims? Should I go through today's media and pull out story after story from the Islamic world which has no counterpart in the west? Iran is about to appoint a new Defense minister, I see. There is a lot of opposition to many of the new wacko president's appointees, but none to him. Oh, well, the Argentines have a warrant out for his arrest for mass murder but he only killed Jews, so that's no big deal. In fact, he's applauded for it. That's from the BBC, btw.

I see Indonesian police claim to be making progress in their investigation of the latest anti-western terrorist bombing by Islamists. Malaysia is going ahead with its big sodomy trial for Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim. Sodomy is bad, but those kinky Malaysians are still into BDSM as they plan on caning model Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno for drinking alcohol. Videos to be sold on ebay. Libyans are still joyously celebrating the return of mass murderer Abdul Baset Ali al-Megrahi. The Lebanese are still trying to put together a government, difficult when Hezbollah controls half the country. Nigerian police are still holding down the city of Potiskum after armed Muslim mobs ran rampant and killed over a hundred people last month. The African Union is trying to put in more peacekeepers to keep Sudan's Muslims from murdering Christians in Darfur. Phillipino soldiers are still trying to track down the rest of that Muslim rebel group which killed dozens of soldiers in an ambush two weeks ago. There was a suicide bomb attack on a police station in Mingora, Pakistan the other day which killed 18.

I'm not even getting into the violence in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Quote

I counter your two quotes from two Arab Sunni scholars

You just don't get it, do you? I fed you those quotes because that was what you demanded. I'm not going to go back and forth throwing quotes from "respected scholars" around.

I'm quite sure there are some who say the right things. After all, Australia's big Muslim cheese knew he had to say the right things around westerners too. Ooops, he didn't expect people to translate what he was saying in Arabic during visits back in the "homeland" did he? When Sheik Taj Din al-Hilal, the mufit of Sydney's biggest mosque, sued a radio station for calling him a dangerous racist the courts sided with the radio station and said he was indeed a dangerous racist.

But that's not the point either. The point is a long history of the kinds of stories I posted above, one after the other, from all over the Muslim world, of vicious, brutal religious fanaticism and the violence it inspires in people throughout the Muslim world.

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To summarize, the Declaration says that Muslims in Western countries have a duty to uphold the laws of the nations they reside in precisely because those nations allow them freedom of worship and social justice - they also need to take pride in these nations, be good neighbours and citizens, and defend these nations from aggressors, while acknowledging Islamophobia exists - it makes clear it is no justification for breaking the law. It also completely condemns terrorism.

That's funny. Sheik al-Hilal said women in Australia who got raped deserved it because they dressed like sluts. And, in fact, the predilection among Muslim immigrants/refugees for committing acts of violence against women is quite well documented throughout the west - except in Canada, where we're too polite to take note of such things.

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The problem with your whole position on Islam is that you go overboard with confirmation bias (look it up, please). ie - you seek out information that confirms your prejudices and ignore or discredit information that goes against (hence why you spend so much time on anti-Islamic websites). Everyone does this SOMETIMES when it comes to SOME ISSUES, (we're all human) however, when it comes to Islam - you go above and beyond - you do this almost all the time.

Actually I spent most of my on-line time playing video games. My main news sites are the BBC, the Globe and Mail, the Post, the Citizen, and the LA Times. The only time I'm likely to be on "Islamophobic" web sites is when I google stuff for this web site because of discussions with ignorant, bleeding heart leftists.

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These quotes are a perfect example - you used biased sites to cherry pick two quotes from two religious figures

Oh bite me. You did the same. You deliberately looked for quotes from two religious figures which would support your views. And if the first quote you'd found had said "Death to evil western scum!" you'd have passed it by and looked for another.

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It doesn't appear like you've ever really taken a long, hard look in the mirror before. And that's sad because it limits your growth as a human being - no matter what your opinions may be.

My growth as a human being is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. And your inane efforts at psychoanalyzing me as an attempt to divert discussion is at an end.

This post has been edited by Argus: 01 September 2009 - 08:08 AM

[JerrySeinfeld]

Let's put it this way, multicultural societies in general have no identity of their own, they celebrate the fact that they have no speciffic belief and instead celebrate other peoples' beliefs.

This has a couple of effects.

First, the Quebecers - who do have an identity and seek to defend it - are less prone to acccept other societies seemingly hell bent on changing society to their favour.

Second, young people from strong cultures who DO have specific beelief systems (ie. Islam) find it much easier to latch on to the belief systems from "back home" which are strong and proud, rather than onto the watered down "belief in nothing", "not moral compass" cultural attitudes of the western multi culti.

As a result, over time the strong minority continues to grow stronger, and the boundless tolerance of the multiculti becomes weaker.

Am I afraid of muslims? Not really. But I'm cognisant of what's going on and suspicious of the future of healthy democracy if it continues.

[justme]

eyeball, on Aug 13 2009, 07:28 PM, said:

Nope, I'm an atheist.

So you're Kuffar.

[justme]

JerrySeinfeld, on Sep 1 2009, 01:55 PM, said:

Let's put it this way, multicultural societies in general have no identity of their own, they celebrate the fact that they have no speciffic belief and instead celebrate other peoples' beliefs.

Multiculturalism is a western liberal concept. Try finding ethnic diversity in any of the countries that ethnic minorities come from, and yet it is usually white people that are accused of being racist or xenophobic.

A good example of what multiculturalism can lead to, I think, is the Sri Lankan protesters in Toronto. They openly wave the flag of a terrorist group, block hospital doorways, shut down a highway, etc, but as the Toronto Star reported, the Liberal government was reluctant to do anything about it because they rely on them heavily for votes. They tried pressuring Canada to get involved in a fight that had nothing to do with this country. As the Star reported, there are 250,000 of them in the Toronto area, yet they want the Canadian military, with roughly 60,000 troop strength that has enough to do already, to fight their fight for them while they support a political party that has gutted the military for decades? I don't think so... either become a Canadian or go back and fight your own battle.

[tango]

justme, on Sep 2 2009, 02:35 AM, said:

Try finding ethnic diversity in any of the countries that ethnic minorities come from ...

Try finding a country that isn't multicultural.

http://www.infopleas...a/A0855611.html

This post has been edited by tango: 02 September 2009 - 01:20 AM