[bjre]

Thanks for Hardner's suggestion:

Michael Hardner, on Oct 25 2009, 12:01 PM, said:

You really are unable to look at the big picture, and consider all sides of the argument. You don't seem to be good at doing that.
I suggest that you take one case and focus on that - why not start a new thread on C51 ?

Quote

“Bill C-51 radically alters the Food and Drugs Act in ways that would allow government to control and restrict natural products, including herbs, vitamins and even foods like blueberries,” said Green Party leader Elizabeth May. “Many Canadians are shunning pharmaceuticals in favour of effective natural health foods and products, but Mr. Harper seems bent on helping the pharmaceutical industry stifle competition from natural products.”

http://www.greenpart...ases/12.05.2008

The following is from CBC:

Quote

• Up to 70 per cent of natural health products would fail more stringent testing requirements.
• The legislation would give Health Canada inspectors "police state" powers to search private property for illegal natural health products.

http://www.cbc.ca/he...l-products.html

Quote

Bill C-51 would also give Health Canada unprecedented power to take natural health products away from consumers.
Traditionally, in Canada we have had the rule of law. This meant that it was not okay for the government to take our property without a warrant or without court supervision to prevent arbitrariness and abuse.
It is troubling that to “protect” us the state can seize our property without prior court approval, without clearly defined reasons for the seizure, without time limit, and without court supervision. It is troubling that the state can commit trespass on our property without any recourse. It is troubling that we can be personally fined and jailed for corporate misdeeds. I am still in disbelief. Surely, we can draft consumer protection legislation that does not read like a police state handbook.
The Federal government is proposing to take away our right to choose and make our health decisions for us. We would then be forced to use other treatments such as chemical pharmaceutical drugs, which can be dangerous and ineffective. For those of us who only get relief from natural health products, the new law would force us to suffer and, in extreme circumstances, die.

http://commonground....bill_C-51.shtml

Quote

Canada’s Police State Bill C-51 Camouflaged as a health bill
.....
The government is using the slogan that we need this new bill to protect our health. That’s a complete fraud and deception.
......
Under Bill C-51 the State could:
• Enter private property without a warrant
• Take your property at their discretion
• Dispose of your property at will
• Not reimburse you for your losses
• Seize your bank accounts without a warrant
• Charge owners shipping and storage charges for seized property
• Store your property indefinitely
• Levy fines of up to $5,000,000.00 and/or seek 2 years in jail per charge
• Will not have to report seizures to a court.
• They can charge you just for talking about or promoting natural alternatives

This bill is a crime against our democracy and those involved in introducing it and passing it should be charged with treason against the kind and totally naive trusting Canadian people.
......
This bill is part of a much bigger New World Order depopulation, and longevity reducing UN agenda. Conducted under the Codex Alimentarium agenda that was started in 1962.
The communist European Union Government has already implemented the almost identical laws. EU civilians are now, unable to get natural health products that have been around for thousands of years.
Canada, The USA and Mexico have signed many secret agreements that are piece by piece, producing the North American Union.
This legislation was introduced in Canada because it is a place of least resistance. Because under one of the Security and Prosperity Partnership Agreements. It will automatically become law in the USA and Mexico. Since Canada has a very small and spread out population which pays little if no attention at all to what our elected officials do or say, and is being rushed through Parliament. I am sorry to say that soon Canada will no longer be a democracy. It will be a DESPOTIC DICTATORSHIP.
....

http://danieltowsey....-a-health-bill/

The following content is from Bill C-51

Quote

23. (4) An inspector who is carrying out their functions may enter on or pass through or over private property without being liable for doing so and without the owner of the property having the right to object to that use of the property.

23. (2) The inspector may
(a) examine or test anything — and take samples free of charge of an article to which this Act or the regulations apply — that is found in the place;

http://www2.parl.gc....P...&File=84#20

The interest groups never stop their effort to push the legislation to robber money from people after C-51, here comes C-52, C6
http://www.anhcampai...watch-back-door

Quote

Bill C-6 & The Dark Tower of Power
The brook Claxton building is threatening to replace Parliament as the symbol of dominant power in Canada. Health Canada, referred to by many professionals as the most corrupt agency in Canada, now wants total unchecked power to further their abuse and corruption.

http://www.billc6.com/www/stopc6/

Quote

"Bill C-6 gives powers to inspectors to stop the importation or sale of a product and to seize property and documents, based entirely on the inspector’s “belief” that a product may be harmful. There is no requirement for the inspector to produce any documented proof nor scientific evidence of harm. There is a requirement to get a warrant if the goods and evidence to be seized are in a personal dwelling; however, such warrant could be issued over the telephone by a judge who would base his decision entirely on the unsubstantiated “belief” of the inspector.."

http://www.newmediae..._as_bill_c6.htm

How similar this with CAS case, if a CAS social worker’s “belief” you are not qualified as a parent, they can take children away. So that they can do whatever they want to do. This is so called “human right” in Canada.

Quote

But why would the government and the pharmaceutical industry conspire to be so evil? It's all too clear to Schapira:
"It's a desperate effort to destroy this industry that's threatening the profits and viability of conventional medicine. Natural medicine works so well — and is becoming so widely used — that both the Canadian and American governments have decided to 'nuke' the industries by passing new laws that effectively criminalize anyone selling such products. They simply cannot tolerate allowing consumers to have continued access to natural products. To do so will ultimately spell the destruction of Big Pharma and the outdated, corrupt and criminally-operated pharmaceutical industry that these criminally-operated governments are trying to protect."

http://www.ottawaske...e/191?task=view


Some other links:
http://www.infiniteu...-food-products/
http://www.geraldked...ealth_products/
http://www.communica...th_products.htm
http://www.facebook....gid=11529874237

This post has been edited by bjre: 25 October 2009 - 01:46 PM

[Moonbox]

GUYS! THE HEALTH INSPECTORS ARE COMING TO TAKE ME AWAY! HALP! REVOLT!

[Michael Hardner]

Start a separate thread about CAS, bjre

Most of the objections seem to center around what health inspectors do now: They enter private property without a warrant, then seize unapproved goods, without reimbursing you. This is exactly what we want an inspector to do, so I'm not concerned at all.

And prohibiting merchants from making false health claims is an acceptable limit on freedom of expression that works well for us in other areas related to health, such as drug claims and food ingredient declaration requirements.

These types of concerns:

Quote

This bill is a crime against our democracy and those involved in introducing it and passing it should be charged with treason against the kind and totally naive trusting Canadian people.
......
This bill is part of a much bigger New World Order depopulation, and longevity reducing UN agenda. Conducted under the Codex Alimentarium agenda that was started in 1962.
The communist European Union Government has already implemented the almost identical laws. EU civilians are now, unable to get natural health products that have been around for thousands of years.
Canada, The USA and Mexico have signed many secret agreements that are piece by piece, producing the North American Union.

This legislation was introduced in Canada because it is a place of least resistance. Because under one of the Security and Prosperity Partnership Agreements. It will automatically become law in the USA and Mexico. Since Canada has a very small and spread out population which pays little if no attention at all to what our elected officials do or say, and is being rushed through Parliament. I am sorry to say that soon Canada will no longer be a democracy. It will be a DESPOTIC DICTATORSHIP.

...are exaggerated. Dictatorship ? New World Order ?

If that's the case, didn't the slippery slope start when we allowed meat inspection.

[segnosaur]

bjre, on Oct 25 2009, 02:28 PM, said:

“Bill C-51 radically alters the Food and Drugs Act in ways that would allow government to control and restrict natural products, including herbs, vitamins and even foods like blueberries,” said Green Party leader Elizabeth May. “Many Canadians are shunning pharmaceuticals in favour of effective natural health foods and products, but Mr. Harper seems bent on helping the pharmaceutical industry stifle competition from natural products.”
http://www.greenpart...ases/12.05.2008

Of course the government should have the right to control or restrict "natural products".

Do people actually believe that just because something is "all natural" that it is completely safe? Frankly, I have no problem with companies having to ensure the safety and compostion of their products, and if necessary, give consumers warnings.

By the way, I do have to thank the green party... You see, in the past I've supported the conservative party, not because I'm a hardcore member, and not because I share all their policies/beliefs, but they were the closest. However, it always made me nervous supporting a party that also contained creationists and other assorted, ahem, quacks. But now, we can see from the claims of the Green party, that belief in non-sensical ideas goes clear across the political spectrum.

Quote

The following is from CBC:
• Up to 70 per cent of natural health products would fail more stringent testing requirements.
• The legislation would give Health Canada inspectors "police state" powers to search private property for illegal natural health products.
http://www.cbc.ca/he...l-products.html

Actuall, those particular claims are not actually being made by the CBC. Instead, they are reporting on some of the false claims.

Those claims were actually made by a webside called 'stopc51'. Should be pointed out that the stopc51 web site (as well as much of the other "support" the anti-C51 movement has) is funded by a "natural health product" called truehope.

Quote

The following content is from Bill C-51
23. (4) An inspector who is carrying out their functions may enter on or pass through or over private property without being liable for doing so and without the owner of the property having the right to object to that use of the property.

So? If someone is producing a product, then the inspectors have to be able to access the factory where that product is being made.

Quote

23. (2) The inspector may
(a) examine or test anything — and take samples free of charge of an article to which this Act or the regulations apply — that is found in the place;\

Yeah, and how else do you think that inspectors will be able to actually test something?

These are the types of regulations that food and drug producers have had to deal with for years, and they've survived.

[bjre]

segnosaur, on Oct 26 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

Of course the government should have the right to control or restrict "natural products".

People should have right to do anything, that is all about freedom and human right mean.
government should have no right at all unless people grant some to it unless it is a dictator or kingdom.

segnosaur, on Oct 26 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

Do people actually believe that just because something is "all natural" that it is completely safe? Frankly, I have no problem with companies having to ensure the safety and compostion of their products, and if necessary, give consumers warnings.

That is none of the business of government. They seeking for better life, better health, they take risk themselves with their braveness. That is all the reason the new discovery and invention comes. It makes society progress and have many different culture. Government is not the father of people, and people are not babies.

segnosaur, on Oct 26 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

So? If someone is producing a product, then the inspectors have to be able to access the factory where that product is being made.

Yeah, and how else do you think that inspectors will be able to actually test something?

These are the types of regulations that food and drug producers have had to deal with for years, and they've survived.

Police state theory.

[capricorn]

bjre, on Oct 26 2009, 06:20 PM, said:

People should have right to do anything, that is all about freedom and human right mean.
government should have no right at all unless people grant some to it unless it is a dictator or kingdom.

When you chose Canada to immigrate to, was this your impression of how things work here? Or is it your belief that this is the way things should work in all countries?

If you came to Canada thinking that people here have the right to do anything they want on the simple bases of freedom and human rights, I expect you're some disappointed dude or dudess.

[Shwa]

Yeah I can see how this legislation could be construed as friendly to the big multinational pharmacueticals. But I think if you have any legislation that is aimed at consumer protection you are going to get that angle. I mean, stores can no longer sell baby toys with toxic lead paint, but that doesn't mean legislation is intended to favour Mattel or Fischer Price.

I think this slate of legislation is aimed more towards snake oil salesmen and charlatans than legitimate naturopathic product producers. And I highly doubt that my favourite blueberry stand just outside of Bancroft is at risk despite the supersonic squels from E May and the Greens.

And if Gramma slaps some stinky poultice on your face to treat zits I am highly skeptical that the HC Gestapo is going to come a-calling. Unless... of course, you rat out Gramma...

[g_bambino]

bjre, on Oct 26 2009, 07:50 PM, said:

People should have right to do anything, that is all about freedom and human right mean.

No, that's what anarchy means.

Quote

government should have no right at all unless people grant some to it unless it is a dictator or kingdom.

Well, that might explain why you've a problem with Canadian government: Canada is a kingdom.

[kimmy]

bjre is coming from country where food inspection is not "ok culture". Back in glorious China bjre admire entrepreneurial food producer who boost healthful protein of food by adding healthful additive such as melamine. In China courageous food buyer may eat whatever he brave enough to put in mouth and he survive by lucky best wish or happy good fortune. In Canada fascist police state food inspectors not permit clever entrepreneur add healthful melamine to milk product and rob entrepreneur chance to make money and not allowing courageous food consumer to experience happy good fortune by surviving sexy flirtation with catastrophic kidney failure. In fascist Canada cowardly consumer having no freedom to eat melamine unless he buying can of cement mix additive.


Now fascist Canada make more bad luck by make herbal medicine not containing hemlock, strychnine, Draino, paint thinner, DDT, ammonia, acetate, and not even healthful melamine permitted. Why fascist Canada doing such bad to poor Canadian consumer?


-k

[TrueMetis]

Nice.

Anyway they just seem like they are increasing standards. Are standards not a good thing? (well they aren't in China...)

This post has been edited by TrueMetis: 26 October 2009 - 05:59 PM

[Melanie_]

What specific natural medicines are you concerned about, bjre? As an example, Canada is full of black bears, and each of them has a gall bladder worth $1000 or more in the Asian market. Asian bears are becoming endangered, so there is an increasing demand for North American bears. You seem to think freedom means doing what you want, when you want, but the destruction of animals to simply harvest one organ, with no true medicinal value, is not a freedom many Canadians will endorse.

[capricorn]

kimmy, on Oct 26 2009, 08:21 PM, said:

In Canada fascist police state food inspectors not permit clever entrepreneur add healthful melamine to milk product and rob entrepreneur chance to make money and not allowing courageous food consumer to experience happy good fortune by surviving sexy flirtation with catastrophic kidney failure. In fascist Canada cowardly consumer having no freedom to eat melamine unless he buying can of cement mix additive.
-k

Quote

As Chinese products come under increased scrutiny worldwide it is clothing that is now concerning officials in New Zealand.

High levels of toxic formaldehyde have been found in trousers made in China.

And there have also been two cases where children's pyjamas, also made in China and sold in The Warehouse, have caught fire.

http://tvnz.co.nz/vi.../411749/1311425

<Now, had the the garments contained a warning for the wearer to stay away from anything emanating heat, I'm sure these flaming garments would have been perfectly safe to wear. So it's the wearer's fault. Sad that these incidents caused a couple of hundred Chinese child workers to be thrown in the unemployment line due to declining Chinese exports. Not to worry. They'll be put to work quickly making bricks or painting toys.> That's my irony for today folks.

[Michael Hardner]

Quote

That is none of the business of government. They seeking for better life, better health, they take risk themselves with their braveness. That is all the reason the new discovery and invention comes. It makes society progress and have many different culture. Government is not the father of people, and people are not babies.

bjre,

Most believe that the government should protect people from charlatans. In China, for example, they even restrict Falun Gong who practice meditation.

What do you think ?

[bjre]

Michael Hardner, on Oct 26 2009, 08:36 PM, said:

bjre,

Most believe that the government should protect people from charlatans. In China, for example, they even restrict Falun Gong who practice meditation.

What do you think ?

Falun Gong is not an organization of ordinary people, They are fighters/army connected with US government.

Quote

Who is Col. Robert Helvey? He was an officer of the Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA) of the Pentagon, who had served in Vietnam and, subsequently, as the US Defence Attache in Yangon, Myanmar, (1983 to 85) during which he clandestinely organised the Myanmarese students to work behind Aung San Suu Kyi and in collaboration with Bo Mya's Karen insurgent group. He was subsequently based in Thailand where he organised the training of the student and Karen supporters of Aung San Suu Kyi. In 1988-89, he also trained in Hong Kong the student leaders from Beijing in mass demonstration techniques which they were to subsequently use in the Tiananmen Square incident of June,1989. He is now believed to be acting as an adviser to the Falun Gong, the religious sect of China, in similar civil disobedience techniques, which the sect is using with increasing effectiveness against the Chinese authorities. He has ostensibly retired from the DIA in 1991.

http://www.southasia...s2/paper198.htm


By the way:

Michael Hardner, on Oct 25 2009, 12:01 PM, said:

I suggest that you take one case and focus on that

[bjre]

kimmy, on Oct 26 2009, 05:21 PM, said:

bjre is coming from country where food inspection is not "ok culture". Back in glorious China bjre admire entrepreneurial food producer who boost healthful protein of food by adding healthful additive such as melamine. In China courageous food buyer may eat whatever he brave enough to put in mouth and he survive by lucky best wish or happy good fortune. In Canada fascist police state food inspectors not permit clever entrepreneur add healthful melamine to milk product and rob entrepreneur chance to make money and not allowing courageous food consumer to experience happy good fortune by surviving sexy flirtation with catastrophic kidney failure. In fascist Canada cowardly consumer having no freedom to eat melamine unless he buying can of cement mix additive.

Now fascist Canada make more bad luck by make herbal medicine not containing hemlock, strychnine, Draino, paint thinner, DDT, ammonia, acetate, and not even healthful melamine permitted. Why fascist Canada doing such bad to poor Canadian consumer?

-k

Can your so called “fascist Canada” prevent these things from happen by inspectors? Then why Maple Leaf Meat issue still happen and causes even more death than melamine milk in china?

Quote

BEIJING — Chinese courts sentenced two men to death and three other defendants, including a top dairy company executive, to life in prison on Thursday for endangering public safety in a tainted milk scandal that killed at least six children, according to state-run news media.

http://www.nytimes.c...3.19601372.html

Quote

On Monday, the Canadian health authorities revised from 4 to 12 the number of deaths from listeriosis that have been linked to contaminated cold meat cuts and the number of officially confirmed cases is now 26 and is expected to rise again, a health official told the press.

http://www.medicalne...cles/119305.php
What happened after that? Anyone in the company take the charge?

So, because Maple Leaf Meat cause the problem, now the freedom of other companies that have never cause problem should be taken away, to make sure the large companies who dominate the markets still have chance to cause problems again. Your baby foolish people don’t know what will harm to yourselves, need police state laws to assault you further, so that inspectors can search you private properties any time they want with no reason, need take more tax money to build jails and hire cops, need out-law most natural products from the market so that large companies can make even more money.

Is that the logic you want to tell me?