[August1991]

I have seen too often on this forum and elsewhere the argument that Quebec threatens independance to get more. (Quebec doesn't really want independance; they're bluffing.)

Some have even viewed this idea positively! Quebec is smart. Other provinces should imitate Quebec. In negotiation, play the tough guy then settle. My province (insert name) should do the same.

I strongly, strongly, strongly disagree with this opinion.

At its base, this English-Canadian viewpoint sees 7 million Quebecers as "One Person" (or maybe Two: Good cop, Bad cop.)

[Aside: The USA is about 300 million people. (Do you have any idea what the number 300 million means?) Yet, George W. can speak as one person and pretend to speak for America.]

So, who speaks for French-Canada in English-Canada? Unfortunately, it is the Liberal Party. (Not the NDP or the Tories.)

It is the Liberal Party of Canada that has played the good cop/bad cop routine. It is the Liberal Party that has used blackmail. The Liberal Party has said "If you don't vote for us, Canada is finished." It is not all Quebecers who make this threat. It is the federal Liberal Party who makes the threat and benefits.

Quebec as a whole does not play the blackmail card. It is Quebec Liberals who threaten blackmail.

I start this thread because I feel that the subject is an undercurrent in Canadian politics. Something many are afraid to speak about.

[Bakunin]

August1991, on Apr 16 2005, 12:52 AM, said:

I have seen too often on this forum and elsewhere the argument that Quebec threatens independance to get more. (Quebec doesn't really want independance; they're bluffing.)

Some have even viewed this idea positively! Quebec is smart. Other provinces should imitate Quebec. In negotiation, play the tough guy then settle. My province (insert name) should do the same.

I strongly, strongly, strongly disagree with this opinion.

At it's base, this English-Canadian viewpoint sees 7 million Quebecers as "One Person" (or maybe two: good cop, bad cop.)

[Aside: The USA is about 300 million people. (Do you have any idea what the number 300 million means?) Yet, George W. can speak as one person and pretend to speak for America.]

So, who speaks for French-Canada in English-Canada? Unfortunately, it is the Liberal Party. (Not the NDP or the Tories.)

It is the Liberal Party of Canada that has played the good cop/bad cop routine. It is the Liberal Party that has used blackmail. The Liberal Party has said "If you don't vote for us, Canada is finished." It is not all Quebecers who make this threat. It is the federal Liberal Party who makes the threat and benefits.

Quebec as a whole does not play the blackmail card. It is Quebec Liberals who threaten blackmail.

I start this thread because I feel that the subject is an undercurrent in Canadian politics. Something many are afraid to speak about.

I agree and id like to point out that all the quebec provincial party are at a point autonomist. The PQ is sovreignist. The PLQ want asymetrical federalism. The ADQ voted yes at the 1995 referendum, now they want something a bit more drastic than asymetrical federalism.

So thei are all uncomfortable with the PLC vision.

[cybercoma]

I think more than anything French Canada would be happy with a TRULY bilingual nation. What we have right now is hardly bilingualism, it is French Québec and English Everywhere-Else. Even more than creating a seperate nation, I think it's important for all of us to realize our combined contribution to the birth of this country (including the First Nations).

Québec, in my opinion, is just trying to remain distinct and keep it's culture alive. The other option would be to sit back and risk assimilation as we've tried doing to the Aboriginals. If it appears as though they're always fighting, it's because they are.

[kimmy]

August1991 said:

So, who speaks for French-Canada in English-Canada? Unfortunately, it is the Liberal Party. (Not the NDP or the Tories.)

I'm not sure I agree with this part. Do not Quebecers speak for themselves in the form of public opinion polls that presently show strong preference for voting BQ federally and PQ provincially? There doesn't seem to be any great mystery as to how Quebecers feel.

August1991 said:

It is the Liberal Party of Canada that has played the good cop/bad cop routine.  It is the Liberal Party that has used blackmail.  The Liberal Party has said "If you don't vote for us, Canada is finished." It is not all Quebecers who make this threat.  It is the federal Liberal Party who makes the threat and benefits.

Quebec as a whole does not play the blackmail card.  It is Quebec Liberals who threaten blackmail.

This part I can agree with.


-kimmy

[cybercoma]

eureka, on Apr 16 2005, 10:28 AM, said:

Quebec is not trying to keep its culture alive. It is trying to create a unilingual nation apart from Canada on one part. On the other, it is trying to create a unilingual, autonomous region within Canada. Neither wants a bilingual Canada nor cares about it.

I don't know how it is that people cannot understand that Quebec is not and never has been a French society or a bilingual society. It is a dual language province where history, law, and every principle of justice and freedom makes it a province of Canada like every other except that both French and English live in equality, side by side.

Language is, and has been since the concept of the nation state came into being, the tool for the creation of nations. The Quebec nationalists know this and are using it to create a nation that has no present existence. They are using it to expel the parts of Quebec society that are alien to their sh..ty dream.

If Quebec didn't distinguish itself as distinctly french, they would be a bilingual province, while all the other provinces (save NB, I know...but for all intents and purposes it's an english speaking province) would be english speaking. Eventually the french will be pushed off the map.

If Quebec wasn't the only place in the country that french was still alive and well, perhaps they would be more likely to move for a truly bilingual nation. As it stands, they're just trying to keep their identity alive.

Of course, we're arguing opinions....and y'know what they say about opinions.

[Bakunin]

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Yet, no one seems very interested. All want to wax indignantly over what are minor abuses in comparison.

Thats because what you say doesn't make sens... you see a genocide because there are less english in quebec but if there are less french in alberta or ontario i guess your very happy with it. when its bad for the french its always good when its bad for the english then its the end of the world...

[Argus]

cybercoma, on Apr 16 2005, 01:44 AM, said:

  What we have right now is hardly bilingualism, it is French Québec and English Everywhere-Else.  Even more than creating a seperate nation, I think it's important for all of us to realize our combined contribution to the birth of this country (including the First Nations). 

Québec, in my opinion, is just trying to remain distinct and keep it's culture alive.  The other option would be to sit back and risk assimilation as we've tried doing to the Aboriginals.  If it appears as though they're always fighting, it's because they are.

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I think more than anything French Canada would be happy with a TRULY bilingual nation.

No. Have you ever been to Quebec, by any chance? I think I can tell you with some assurance that Quebecers don't give a crap whether the signs on the cerial in Vancouver and Regina are in French or not. Quebecers are a naval gazing people. Their interest is in what is happening in Quebec. They are only peripherally aware of what happens in Canada outside Quebec, and even then only, for the most part, of what affects them.

All those parents in BC and Toronto earnestly sending their little ones to French immersion class no doubt provides Quebecers with a little warm feeling inside - but it's the same feeling any Francophone, be he in Quebec or France would feel at hearing others learning their language. Francophones are in love with their language the way no one else can imagine, especially Anglos who, for the most part, regard their language as more of a tool than a mistress. Quebecers would be happy, I guess, if all of Canada were French, but having Anglos learn their language is not really going to affect how they feel about Canada or their place in it.

As for "assimilation", it's a desperate fear among Francophones, and only Francophones, for the most part. Even in France they have their language police, and the English laugh and jeer at them. Our language was born out of assimilation, of the co-mingling of various peoples and ethnicities. It continues to grow, to adopt foreign phrases and words with blissful ease. This is the nature of a living language. As different groups co-mingle, their languages grow closer and closer together until little is left of the originals. The English understand that, even if they rarely think about it. The French can't abide the thought their beloved language might change or adapt to the world around them.

With the ease of communication and travel, and the power of English in culture, entertainment, business and technology, English is becomeing the world language. Some day everyone will speak it. Except of course, those desperate little Frenchmen huddled alone in France and Quebec, determined to cling to a dead language which will increasingly make it more difficult for them to communicate with the rest of the world.

Some day Chinese tourists will float past on their hovercars, snapping pictures of the funny little French guys and listening to them talk. And one will turn to the other and say "What'd he say?" and the other will shrug and say "They don't speak any other language. Aren't they quaint?"

[Bakunin]

Argus, on Apr 17 2005, 05:15 PM, said:

cybercoma, on Apr 16 2005, 01:44 AM, said:

  What we have right now is hardly bilingualism, it is French Québec and English Everywhere-Else.  Even more than creating a seperate nation, I think it's important for all of us to realize our combined contribution to the birth of this country (including the First Nations). 

Québec, in my opinion, is just trying to remain distinct and keep it's culture alive.  The other option would be to sit back and risk assimilation as we've tried doing to the Aboriginals.  If it appears as though they're always fighting, it's because they are.

Quote

I think more than anything French Canada would be happy with a TRULY bilingual nation.

No. Have you ever been to Quebec, by any chance? I think I can tell you with some assurance that Quebecers don't give a crap whether the signs on the cerial in Vancouver and Regina are in French or not. Quebecers are a naval gazing people. Their interest is in what is happening in Quebec. They are only peripherally aware of what happens in Canada outside Quebec, and even then only, for the most part, of what affects them.

All those parents in BC and Toronto earnestly sending their little ones to French immersion class no doubt provides Quebecers with a little warm feeling inside - but it's the same feeling any Francophone, be he in Quebec or France would feel at hearing others learning their language. Francophones are in love with their language the way no one else can imagine, especially Anglos who, for the most part, regard their language as more of a tool than a mistress. Quebecers would be happy, I guess, if all of Canada were French, but having Anglos learn their language is not really going to affect how they feel about Canada or their place in it.

As for "assimilation", it's a desperate fear among Francophones, and only Francophones, for the most part. Even in France they have their language police, and the English laugh and jeer at them. Our language was born out of assimilation, of the co-mingling of various peoples and ethnicities. It continues to grow, to adopt foreign phrases and words with blissful ease. This is the nature of a living language. As different groups co-mingle, their languages grow closer and closer together until little is left of the originals. The English understand that, even if they rarely think about it. The French can't abide the thought their beloved language might change or adapt to the world around them.

With the ease of communication and travel, and the power of English in culture, entertainment, business and technology, English is becomeing the world language. Some day everyone will speak it. Except of course, those desperate little Frenchmen huddled alone in France and Quebec, determined to cling to a dead language which will increasingly make it more difficult for them to communicate with the rest of the world.

Some day Chinese tourists will float past on their hovercars, snapping pictures of the funny little French guys and listening to them talk. And one will turn to the other and say "What'd he say?" and the other will shrug and say "They don't speak any other language. Aren't they quaint?"

lol , its funny to read.

I agree with most of it but i would like to point out that we learn english too. We will become billingual in the near futur.

[August1991]

I'll get around to my initial rant after responding to a few unrelated points.

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You don't seem to grasp, Bakunin, what I have posted a few times now that more than 50% of "Anglophones have been forced out of Quebec by the "race" laws.

You are right eureka. Quebec's apartheid laws are truly unjust and the requirement that anglophones wear a Maple Leaf on their clothing abominable. Have you ever seen the appalling living conditions in Westmount, Montreal's Soweto?

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Argus is right in that France also has its language police and academies to keep the "purity" of the French language and are thus dooming it to extinction.

I have come to the conclusion that the confusion aboput this idea of "language police" stems from the peculiar Anglo-Saxon legal system and the legal system practiced in the wider world. Common law and the civil code are two very different ways of approaching the law, and in this case language.

The civil code tends to standardize whereas the common law relies on precedent. Similarly, the French language is standardized whereas English usage varies.

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As for "assimilation", it's a desperate fear among Francophones, and only Francophones, for the most part.

Given the history of francophones in North America, the fear is arguably not misplaced. After all, it is a small community of several million surrounded by almost 300 million anglophones.

Only francophones? Many English-speaking Canadians on this forum seem to fear assimilation from the US.

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With the ease of communication and travel, and the power of English in culture, entertainment, business and technology, English is becomeing the world language. Some day everyone will speak it.

Only an anglophone could state such nonsense.

There is every likelihood that Chinese or Arabic will become a world language. But debating this question really misses the point.

Language is an aspect of local reality or culture. This will never be homogeneous given the natural diversity of individuals. There is a reason the world today has different languages and I would imagine that in the future, there will still be differences.

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All those parents in BC and Toronto earnestly sending their little ones to French immersion class no doubt provides Quebecers with a little warm feeling inside...

No, it doesn't.

And I suspect that many parents in BC or Toronto choose immersion as a way to avoid the regular public system.

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Quebecers would be happy, I guess, if all of Canada were French, but having Anglos learn their language is not really going to affect how they feel about Canada or their place in it.

Most Quebecers are acutely aware of the fact that North America was first discovered by French speaking people. But they are resigned to the fact that places like Detroit, Portage-la Prairie, Butte, Eau-Claire, Sioux Falls, Sault-Ste-Marie are now mispronounced.

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I think I can tell you with some assurance that Quebecers don't give a crap whether the signs on the cerial in Vancouver and Regina are in French or not. Quebecers are a naval gazing people. Their interest is in what is happening in Quebec. They are only peripherally aware of what happens in Canada outside Quebec, and even then only, for the most part, of what affects them.

True.

If Canada is to exist as a country, it will never be a place with a homogeneous nationalism. There will never be a common collective identity nor common idealistic goals. At best, it will be an arrangement - a practical marriage (although I really dislike such metaphors).

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In every aspect of daily life in Quebec it is impossible yo be other than French.

And I suppose to be properly integrated into life in Winnipeg or Halifax, it is impossible to be other than English-speaking.

Eureka:

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Quebec is not trying to keep its culture alive. It is trying to create a unilingual nation apart from Canada on one part. On the other, it is trying to create a unilingual, autonomous region within Canada. Neither wants a bilingual Canada nor cares about it.
I don't know how it is that people cannot understand that Quebec is not and never has been a French society or a bilingual society. It is a dual language province where history, law, and every principle of justice and freedom makes it a province of Canada like every other except that both French and English live in equality, side by side.
Language is, and has been since the concept of the nation state came into being, the tool for the creation of nations. The Quebec nationalists know this and are using it to create a nation that has no present existence. They are using it to expel the parts of Quebec society that are alien to their sh..ty dream.

This quote deserves a new thread. If you want, start one on Quebec independance because that it is the issue you raise.

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So, who speaks for French-Canada in English-Canada? Unfortunately, it is the Liberal Party. (Not the NDP or the Tories.)

I'm not sure I agree with this part. Do not Quebecers speak for themselves in the form of public opinion polls that presently show strong preference for voting BQ federally and PQ provincially? There doesn't seem to be any great mystery as to how Quebecers feel.

Thanks Kimmy for addressing the point of my original rant.

IME, most English-Canadians only know French -Canadians as politicians or hockey players. I will list a few names and check which ones you know: (Roy Dupuis, Bernard Derome, Jean Chrétien, Marie-Michèle Desrosiers, Jose Théodore, Pauline Marois, Michel Vastel, Robert Lepage, Jean Béliveau, Pascale Bussières, Julie Snyder, Pierre Pettigrew, Michèle Richard, Janette Bertrand).

All of these names are familiar to people in Quebec.

English and French Canada are joined by politics and sports. Since hockey players are not particularly eloquent ("I hit da puck, it go in da goal and we win dat game, you know."), the Liberal Party of Canada has obtained a monopoly as the authoritative voice of French Canada ("Canada is da greatest country, you know.").

Mulroney made an effort to present a different line-up. For his efforts, he has been considered a traitor. The last time English Canadians got a glimpse of another French Canada was under Diefenbaker. Pierre Sévigny died recently, a casualty, like Lucien Bouchard.

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Allow me to reiterate my rant.

There is a strong feeling in English- Canada (or ROC, or whatever) that Quebec is just bluffing. Quebec has no intention of separating. Quebec is like a wily mistress who takes advantage of a well-intentioned, but naive man.

My point was that this perception is wrong. People like Gilles Duceppe, Bernard Landry and René Lévesque do not play games like this. In this respect, they are or were sincere. They would like nothing more than to be done with this kind of "blackmail".

Who makes the claim that Canada will end if the Conservatives or any other party forms a government in Ottawa?

The Liberal Party has created this notion that it alone speaks for French Quebec. They are the blackmailers. They are ferocious.

[cybercoma]

eureka, on Apr 17 2005, 07:31 PM, said:

You don't seem to grasp, Bakunin, what I have posted a few times now that more than 50% of "Anglophones have been forced out of Quebec by the "race" laws.

That is the biggest displacement of people, proportionately, since the flight of East Germans to the West following WWII.

And, it was a deliberate policy of the Quebec governments of Bourassa and Levesque to do this. It has also been made virtually impossible for Canadians other than French speakers, to move to Quebec.

In every aspect of daily life in Quebec it is impossible yo be other than French. Argus is right in that France also has its language police and academies to keep the "purity" of the French language and are thus dooming it to extinction. But France does not go one tenth the distance in outlawing others.

Don't you see that it's impossible for someone who ONLY speaks french to get along in any other part of our country besides Quebec?

They have one province that you have difficulty in. You have 9 provinces that they have difficulty in.

We're a BILINGUAL country...you do know that means BOTH languages should be equally accepted everywhere, right?

This most certainly is not the case and there is no indication that English speaking Canada is willing to meet the French halfway and learn their language. So tell me, why should the french have to learn English or furthermore CATER to them?

French at one point in time was in a position to be the only language anyone would speak in the world. It just so happens that at this time that language is English. It's almost a certainty that will end sometime. It's already said that the EU and USA do more business with China than they do with each other.

It may not be in our lifetime, but there is a distinct possibility that we will all be learning Chinese in the future.

[Bakunin]

There is one thing that fascinate me, i don't know if you saw that too august1991, among the quebec federalist their are some that are nationalist(quebec) and some canadian nationalist. The english canadian prolly can't see that.

The hard line like trudeau and chretien are canadian nationalist. just like many but not all PLC federalist. Those are very rare. Only those would think about cheating to fight the sovreignist movement. Only those would think about sending the army in quebec if there is a winning referendum or to try to partitionate quebec.

What the english canada see are the canadian nationalist wich do not represent the quebec culture proprely. It is sad for the few good federalist politician.

Im sure english canada doesn't know how much quebecers are proud and unconditional democrate.Maybe they can feel it with the reaction of the sponsorship scandal in quebec, but they can't fully understand it since the responsible for this scandal are almost all quebecers(canadian nationalist).