25 replies to this topic

[WIP]

A Polish friend of mine who went on vacation to his homeland about six years ago said that his home country is starting to look like Iran....except with crosses. I would have thought he was joking until I read some of the details of the Concordat agreement the Catholic Church has with the state authorities http://www.concordat..._header_id=1331

But this little story about a Polish pop singer who is threatened with two years of incarceration for blasphemy because she said that: "the Bible was written by drunks and people with a fondness for "herbal cigarettes," illustrates once again the folly of secularists believing that they are safe taking sides with Christian fundamentalists against Muslim extremism. Both of the world's largest religions have moderates and hardline fundamentalists, and now Poland is giving us a glimpse of what a Catholic country will end up with if they give the Catholic Church everything on their wish list.

Edited by WIP, 17 May 2010 - 02:43 AM.

[Michael Hardner]

Countries that don't separate church and state will not thrive, in my opinion, because they can't offer an open framework for people to pursue their own happiness. Normally, I would say let them go their own way - however in the example of freedom of expression, this is a universal right that needs to be protested from outside as well as inside.

[Shady]

It's not just Muslim countries where this sort of thing happens

Lets not pretend that there's an equal risk of this kind of behavior. It's dishonest and disingenuous. Aside from that, I think this law is ridiculous, and hopefully these charges will be dropped.

However, I'm glad to see violence wasn't involved.

[bush_cheney2004]

Countries that don't separate church and state will not thrive, in my opinion, because they can't offer an open framework for people to pursue their own happiness. Normally, I would say let them go their own way - however in the example of freedom of expression, this is a universal right that needs to be protested from outside as well as inside.

Then protest this:

From (THE BRITISH NORTH AMERICA ACT, 1867)

Education.

93. In and for each Province the Legislature may exclusively make Laws in relation to Education, subject and according to the following Provisions:--

(1) Nothing in any such Law shall prejudicially affect any Right or Privilege with respect to Denominational Schools which any Class of Persons have by Law in the Province at the Union:

(2) All the Powers, Privileges and Duties at the Union by Law conferred and imposed in Upper Canada on the Separate Schools and School Trustees of the Queen's Roman Catholic Subjects shall be and the same are hereby extended to the Dissentient Schools of the Queen's Protestant and Roman Catholic Subjects in Quebec:

(3) Where in any Province a System of Separate or Dissentient Schools exists by Law at the Union or is thereafter established by the Legislature of the Province, an Appeal shall lie to the Governor General in Council from any Act or Decision of any Provincial Authority affecting any Right or Privilege of the Protestant or Roman Catholic Minority of the Queen's Subjects in relation to Education:

(4) In case any such Provincial Law as from Time to Time seems to the Governor General in Council requisite for the Execution of the Provisions of this Section is not made, or in case any Decision of the Governor General in Council on any Appeal under this Section is not duly executed by the proper Provincial Authority in that Behalf, then and in every such Case, and as far as the Circumstances of each Case require, the Parliament of Canada may make remedial Laws for the due Execution of the Provisions of this Section and of any Decision of the Governor General in Council under this Section.(50)

93A. Paragraphs (1) to (4) of section 93 do not apply to Quebec. (50.1)

[Shady]

Then protest this:

From (THE BRITISH NORTH AMERICA ACT, 1867)

Exactly. What he meant to say is that countries that don't separate church and state and practice Islam, will not thrive.

[WIP]

Lets not pretend that there's an equal risk of this kind of behavior. It's dishonest and disingenuous. Aside from that, I think this law is ridiculous, and hopefully these charges will be dropped.

However, I'm glad to see violence wasn't involved.

That article doesn't explain the background of the story, but I suspect that the reason the state is stomping all over freedom of speech has something to do with the Concordat Agreement reached with the Catholic Church. Since the deal gives the Church power over law, education and even taxation policy, there's no doubt that laws against blasphemous speech also apply. The final word is Muslim majority nations aren't the only ones that face the prospect of theocracy.

[WIP]

Then protest this:

From (THE BRITISH NORTH AMERICA ACT, 1867)

Education.

93. In and for each Province the Legislature may exclusively make Laws in relation to Education, subject and according to the following Provisions:--

(1) Nothing in any such Law shall prejudicially affect any Right or Privilege with respect to Denominational Schools which any Class of Persons have by Law in the Province at the Union:

(2) All the Powers, Privileges and Duties at the Union by Law conferred and imposed in Upper Canada on the Separate Schools and School Trustees of the Queen's Roman Catholic Subjects shall be and the same are hereby extended to the Dissentient Schools of the Queen's Protestant and Roman Catholic Subjects in Quebec:

(3) Where in any Province a System of Separate or Dissentient Schools exists by Law at the Union or is thereafter established by the Legislature of the Province, an Appeal shall lie to the Governor General in Council from any Act or Decision of any Provincial Authority affecting any Right or Privilege of the Protestant or Roman Catholic Minority of the Queen's Subjects in relation to Education:

(4) In case any such Provincial Law as from Time to Time seems to the Governor General in Council requisite for the Execution of the Provisions of this Section is not made, or in case any Decision of the Governor General in Council on any Appeal under this Section is not duly executed by the proper Provincial Authority in that Behalf, then and in every such Case, and as far as the Circumstances of each Case require, the Parliament of Canada may make remedial Laws for the due Execution of the Provisions of this Section and of any Decision of the Governor General in Council under this Section.(50)

93A. Paragraphs (1) to (4) of section 93 do not apply to Quebec. (50.1)

Regardless of these laws, many provinces in Canada have overturned the old Protestant and Catholic education systems in favour of public education, because many courts have applied the principle of separation of church and state....well, at least that was before Harper came along! Now we can expect Catholic schools, Evangelical Protestant schools, Muslim schools, Sikh education schools, Jewish schools etc. etc.. because the Tories are trying to buy immigrant and minority voters the same way conservatives do in the U.S. -- by using religion. They already tried this and failed in Ontario, but no doubt they'll try it again.

Now that we are seeing the same creeping influence of religion in politics that the U.S. has experienced over the last 30 years: The Armageddon Factor by Marci MacDonald, sounds like a book on the Christian Right in Canada has come out just in time! There's no point in just letting the same process that turned U.S. conservative politics into an article of faith overtake us without objection!

[Wilber]

Regardless of these laws, many provinces in Canada have overturned the old Protestant and Catholic education systems in favour of public education, because many courts have applied the principle of separation of church and state....well, at least that was before Harper came along! Now we can expect Catholic schools, Evangelical Protestant schools, Muslim schools, Sikh education schools, Jewish schools etc. etc.. because the Tories are trying to buy immigrant and minority voters the same way conservatives do in the U.S. -- by using religion. They already tried this and failed in Ontario, but no doubt they'll try it again.

As you point out, schools are a provincial jurisdiction so what does Harper have to do with it? In BC we have had all those schools and more for ages, they just aren't part of the public system.

[WIP]

As you point out, schools are a provincial jurisdiction so what does Harper have to do with it? In BC we have had all those schools and more for ages, they just aren't part of the public system.

Because the same theocrats that support Harper are also in the provincial parties, as I mentioned when John Tory tried to win them over here in Ontario by promising to send some of our education tax dollars to faith-based schools.

[ToadBrother]

As you point out, schools are a provincial jurisdiction so what does Harper have to do with it? In BC we have had all those schools and more for ages, they just aren't part of the public system.

Although they do receive public money, which has been a sticking point. However, in BC, even private parochial schools still have to teach a curriculum approved by the Ministry of Education, so there are clear limits on how far one could push, say, teaching Creationism. Most fundamentalist churches in BC put that sort of thing into their Sunday School curriculum, which, while I disagree with kids being taught crapola, certainly creates no substantial issues as far as taxpayers funding religious education per se.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Now that we are seeing the same creeping influence of religion in politics that the U.S. has experienced over the last 30 years: The Armageddon Factor by Marci MacDonald, sounds like a book on the Christian Right in Canada has come out just in time! There's no point in just letting the same process that turned U.S. conservative politics into an article of faith overtake us without objection!

Nonsense...it's a problem of your own Constitution's making. The Americans got right the first time, and can't be blamed for your domestic tribulations with a Lord and Father. Money was flowing to parochial schools years before you can try to blame it on Americans.

[Oleg Bach]

Countries that don't separate church and state will not thrive, in my opinion, because they can't offer an open framework for people to pursue their own happiness. Normally, I would say let them go their own way - however in the example of freedom of expression, this is a universal right that needs to be protested from outside as well as inside.

All evidence points to the fact that God has nothing to do with church or state - if godness or common goodness was involved with church and state, we would have seen evidence of good out comes to many problems - there are no good outcomes - just on going trouble.

When are people going to understand that church and state have always been intertwined and for all intent are the same entity? It is all about the carrot on the stick factor...The state abuses you while the church playing good cop tells you that you get your reward later. LATER never comes - when you are dead common sense dictates you get nothing - so the church is in partnership with the state to rip you off for your life.

WE SHOULD seperate God from the state! Seperate good and evil and figure out what is what - the state in partnership with the church adulterates good and evil and leave us in a befuddled state of weakness - hence enslaved.

[Wilber]

Although they do receive public money, which has been a sticking point. However, in BC, even private parochial schools still have to teach a curriculum approved by the Ministry of Education, so there are clear limits on how far one could push, say, teaching Creationism. Most fundamentalist churches in BC put that sort of thing into their Sunday School curriculum, which, while I disagree with kids being taught crapola, certainly creates no substantial issues as far as taxpayers funding religious education per se.

True but their parents also pay school taxes.

[Wilber]

Because the same theocrats that support Harper are also in the provincial parties, as I mentioned when John Tory tried to win them over here in Ontario by promising to send some of our education tax dollars to faith-based schools.

So, do you think they will go away if Harper is no longer PM? Chretien is a practicing Catholic. So what. Schools are a provincial matter, period, who constitutes the federal government is irrelevant. If you get a bunch of fundamentalist types running your province, don't blame the rest of the country.

[Oleg Bach]

So, do you think they will go away if Harper is no longer PM? Chretien is a practicing Catholic. So what. Schools are a provincial matter, period, who constitutes the federal government is irrelevant. If you get a bunch of fundamentalist types running your province, don't blame the rest of the country.

Corporate funamentalists are just as irritating.