407 replies to this topic

[Shwa]

The fighter on the end of such an exchange must be engaged in an "active defense". The stoppages usually come very quickly when that active defense isnt there, and the UFC gets a fair ammount of critisism for quick stoppages.

Gimme a break, that us almost as useless a reply as Shady or Kimmy. Many fighters are no longer in an "active defense" because they are already pooched. And when do they usually get pooched? When they are in an active defense. All you have said here is that once a guy is knocked out or gives up, the other guy has to stop beating on him. Nooo....

Not really. You need to win the fight. And with the rise of Brazilian Jujitsu a lot of fights are actually won by the guy on the bottom. In fact I would say that when the guy on the top is the "full guard" of the guy on the bottom that position is basically a coin toss. Silva beat Sonnen from the bottom at UFC 118, and Fedor Emelianenko was beaten from the bottom a few weeks ago as well.

So from the few examples you cite, where do you get "a lot of fights?" The fact is, delivering a downward blow to a defended head is still going to cause damage regardless of who has the advantage. And sitting on a guy, pouding away at his head is going to cause damage. Really.

Fighting on the ground is just part of the sport.

Hence, gutless.

Its probably actually LESS dangerous than standing up and trading blows.

Yes, cowardly things usually are "LESS dangerous." That's why they are cowardly things.

[Shady]

Yes, cowardly things usually are "LESS dangerous." That's why they are cowardly things.

Yes, like when boxers continue to punch an opponent that's been hurt and is already staggering. Pathetic and cowardly.

[Jack Weber]

Yes, like when boxers continue to punch an opponent that's been hurt and is already staggering. Pathetic and cowardly.

That's the referee's fault,in most cases...Or the corner of the fighter who's getting beaten on...

Question...

When Roberto Duran beat Davey Moore to a bloody pulp was it Duran's fault because he continued in a fight that was'nt stopped???

Or

Was it Moore's corner,and an incompetent referee,who allowed a senseless beating to continue?

When Larry Holmes was matched up wit an obviously overmatched Marvis Frazier,on national TV no less,was it Holmes fault that he kept on beating up Marvis,even after pleading with the referee to stop the fight?

Or

The referee,who did nothing while Holmes asked him to stop the fight?

[Jack Weber]

Holmes vs Frazier



And Mills Lane is the referee!!!Not exactly a hack!!!

Holmes motions to him to stop the fight 3 times before Lane steps in!!!

That's Holmes being cowardly and pathetic???

[Jack Weber]

Duran vs Moore

[Jack Weber]

Duran vs Moore continued...





Now,it should be noted that Moore was the WBA Champion at 154 lbs at the time.He beat Charlie Wier in Johannesburg,S.A. earlier that year and Duran was the #1 ranked challenger.But clearly,this is a total mismatch and the outcome is not in doubt at all by Round 5.However,who is the real pathetic coward here???

1.Roberto Duran,who is fighting for a belt and simply doing his "job"?

2.The referee,who seems to be unale to see that Moore is bleeding profusely and cannot see out of his right eye by the end of Round 5,and only seems to stop the fight in Round 8 because Jose Torres is shouting at him to do so from ringside?

3.Moore's corner,who has the real reponsibility to protect their fighter when he's clearly overmatched,and taking a horrendous beating,regardless of the fact that he's holding a belt?

[Shwa]

Yes, like when boxers continue to punch an opponent that's been hurt and is already staggering. Pathetic and cowardly.

Nope.

A fighter who is still on his feet hasn't submitted and can still defend himself by moving away. It would be pathetic and cowardly only if said hurt and staggering fighter fell and the other fighter jumped on him and started wailing away.

I didn't say that boxing wasn't violent or boxers don't get hurt. I am saying it is gutless and cowardly to hit a man while he is down and this applies to a ring, cage or street. Every man knows this. Every man also knows it is gutless and cowardly to hit a woman. Different side of the same coin.

[kimmy]

Nope.

A fighter who is still on his feet hasn't submitted and can still defend himself by moving away. It would be pathetic and cowardly only if said hurt and staggering fighter fell and the other fighter jumped on him and started wailing away.

Watch the videos Jack just posted for a stunning rebuke of the premise that a fighter can defend himself as long as he's still on his feet.

-k

[Shady]

Watch the videos Jack just posted for a stunning rebuke of the premise that a fighter can defend himself as long as he's still on his feet.

-k

Exactly. That was pretty brutal. And the thing about boxing that's kind of screwed up, it that if you get hurt really badly. They allow you a bit of time to get up and recover, just to get pounded again. And if you get hurt again, you're given some more time to recover, to get pounded again. Over and over. In MMA, if you get hurt like that once, the fight is stopped.

[Jack Weber]

Exactly. That was pretty brutal. And the thing about boxing that's kind of screwed up, it that if you get hurt really badly. They allow you a bit of time to get up and recover, just to get pounded again. And if you get hurt again, you're given some more time to recover, to get pounded again. Over and over. In MMA, if you get hurt like that once, the fight is stopped.

For the most part,that has stopped...Since the death of Duk Ku Kim in '82,refree's and Athletic commissions have increasingly gone more to the medical community for diagnosis' regarding licences.For example,it used to be if you got knocked out,you could go to another commission and fight the following week.Now if you get KO'd,your license is supended for 90 days and to get it back you have to go through a battery of neurological tests,including at least 2 CAT scans...And that suspension and advice from the medical profession is honoured all across Europe and North America

But that's not what you said...You claimed it was cowardly and pathetic for a boxer to continue to do his job...But who's fault is it really when it's the referee that is in control of the combatants,the corners giving advice inbetween rounds,or,the medical doctor at ringside who can be called over at any time if the referee thinks it's warranted????

[dre]

Exactly. That was pretty brutal. And the thing about boxing that's kind of screwed up, it that if you get hurt really badly. They allow you a bit of time to get up and recover, just to get pounded again. And if you get hurt again, you're given some more time to recover, to get pounded again. Over and over. In MMA, if you get hurt like that once, the fight is stopped.

Yeah from a health perspective the standing eight count is definately a disaster.

[dre]

For the most part,that has stopped...Since the death of Duk Ku Kim in '82,refree's and Athletic commissions have increasingly gone more to the medical community for diagnosis' regarding licences.For example,it used to be if you got knocked out,you could go to another commission and fight the following week.Now if you get KO'd,your license is supended for 90 days and to get it back you have to go through a battery of neurological tests,including at least 2 CAT scans...And that suspension and advice from the medical profession is honoured all across Europe and North America

But that's not what you said...You claimed it was cowardly and pathetic for a boxer to continue to do his job...But who's fault is it really when it's the referee that is in control of the combatants,the corners giving advice inbetween rounds,or,the medical doctor at ringside who can be called over at any time if the referee thinks it's warranted????

Part of it comes down to how easy of an out the fighter has. In MMA its HONORABLE for you to tap out. Deciding youve had enough is part of the sport. If a boxer quits he might never get another fight.

[kimmy]

A couple months ago I saw a boxing match between Amir Khan of England, and Paulie Malignaggi-- a Brooklyn boy! From Noo Yawk! And it was quite a mismatch. Khan was just head and shoulders better, and just picked him apart and by the end of it was landing at will. And eventually-- in the 11th round, the referee finally said ok, that's enough. But the thing is, because Paulie never got knocked down, and because he kept his hands up right until the end, it looks like he's still got a chance, right? He's still standing, and his fists are up, so he's still in the fight, right?


Was Duran gutless to keep pounding Moore until the referee steps in? No. Is an MMA fighter gutless to throw punches from a mount position until the referee steps in? No.

Both sports rely on the referee to protect the participants. And personally, I've seen a lot of MMA and quite a bit of boxing, and I believe that MMA referees are more assertive in protecting the participants, and I believe the nature of the sport is the main reason why.

As Shady points out, in boxing if a guy gets hurt that badly, he gets a chance to recover and continue. In MMA, if a fighter gets hurt that badly, his opponent will be on him very quickly and end the fight. I was pretty surprised that Moore was allowed to continue after that huge knockdown in the 7th round. If that was an MMA fight, that knockdown itself most likely gets a referee stoppage. If the referee didn't stop the fight right then, Duran would have mounted Moore, thrown 3 punches, and the referee stops it. Instead, Moore gets enough time to shake out the cobwebs, convinces the referee he can continue, and goes on to absorb probably 15 or 20 kill-shots to the head before the referee ends it. Why? He stayed on his feet. He kept throwing punches. He couldn't protect his head at all, but Duran couldn't knock him down again. Khan finds Paulie's face with the consistency of a Swiss watch, but Paulie never goes down so there's not really a moment when it's obvious that the referee has to step in. In MMA, it tends to be very apparent when the referee needs to step in. In boxing you get this .. well, he's still standing, his fists are still up, he can probably tie him up and get time to recover, he still has a chance to land a big punch, that sort of thing.


I think the core of this argument over what's "gutless" is Da Shwa's misconception that if a guy is standing he can still defend himself but if he's not standing he can't defend himself.




-k

[Jack Weber]

Part of it comes down to how easy of an out the fighter has. In MMA its HONORABLE for you to tap out. Deciding youve had enough is part of the sport. If a boxer quits he might never get another fight.

That might be true...

I can't speak for MMA,but I know that boxers from early on as an amateur,are taught to never quit...

That's why,for example,Roberto Duran became a punchline in a joke after his "No Mas!" fight with Ray Leonard...You are simplt taught not to quit.

That works both ways,however...If a boxer does'nt hav all the skill necessary to continue in a fight,but has the heart,it is incumbent on the outside controlling people observing the fight to stop it,to save the fighter from himself.Conversely,how many times have we seen a boxer seemingly doomed to a knockout,get himself off the canvass and come back and win a fight?It's not an easy thing to say a fight should be stopped because someone seems to be in serious trouble...

An example of this would be the first Pacquiao vs Marquez fight in 2005...

[kimmy]

It's common for MMA fighters to submit. You can get into trouble that there's just no way out of other than to concede. There's nothing to be gained from attempting to continue except for a serious injury.

On the odd occasion when a fighter really is too stupid to submit, you get something like this... (for the record, I believe that remains the most serious injury ever to occur in a UFC fight. And another example of how the guy on the bottom is able to protect himself from the guy on top, btw.)


-k
{"Oh SNAP!" }

Edited by kimmy, 18 September 2010 - 03:14 PM.