101 replies to this topic

[betsy]

Actually they do. They believe something so, through science they determine whether it is viable or not. Their beliefs may change when they discover new information, or the new information will be evidence to support the theory that they believe to be true.

I think from what I interpret that ToadBrother is saying is that for example when scientists are working on let's say about the universe...they did not set out to prove that God created it or not.
I may be wrong in interpreting his question...

To another atheist, it is irrelevant. And why the Christian god?? What about the jewish god, or the catholic god or buddah or allah? Why does it seem you are hung up on the Christian version of a god? I will guess because that is what you were brought up with?

It will be interesting to know that.

If you are not willing to move to the agnostic camp, then you cannot expect any atheist to move to the agnostic side.

Again, you're missing my point. I've already explained this somewhere.

If it was not for science, you'd have no Internet to tell people what you think. No TV, no radio, no technology. Healthcare would not be where it is if it was not for science, Science is everywhere,

I agree with you up to this point. As for omnipotence and all that....you're entitled to your own opinion.

Perhaps it's the next step for you as well. But not like you are willing to open your mind to that possibility. But for whatever reason it is the atheist scientists who must be agnostic. You put the onus on the them.

Well, we're starting to go on the big circular again....and I do not have much time to waste in a discussion that isn't going to go anywhere. As you must've noticed I post sporadically....and do not post as much as I used to. So I'll just say again, you're entitled to your own opinion.

I'd say this is related more to the human condition in total. Not just atheists or believers.

If you're speaking in general... outside the context of what I was talking about.

It's hard to maintain a meaningful discussion if we take statements out of context. I guess this signals that we've ran the course of this subject.

Edited by betsy, 03 September 2010 - 10:58 AM.

[GostHacked]

Are you "baiting" me?

Not baiting you, you came back to the site after a year absence on your own. But while you are here, I will engage in some discussion.

What you choose to do is your business. As for grave implications that you wanna know....what do you want me to say?

And what other people chose is their business as well. But you would rather atheists become agnostics. My guess is that you feel it's one step towards being a Christian/believer in god.

If agnosticism is really the only way to go (because a believer and an atheist can't know with 100% certainty that their position is right.

So when are you becoming an agnostic? It really is a serious question.

Of course speaking as a Christian, I pray and hope that you find salvation through Christ. That's all I can do. The choice is yours.

I won't find salvation in Christ, I already tried that method. It did not work out for me, I did not get any answers or direction. So I did the next best thing. I found salvation within myself. And it has worked for me since that revelation. As the saying goes God helps those who help themselves. I am helping myself.

Also you have not answered my other questions which I really want to know. What if I chose another religion that does not follow Christ, or any prophet or god? What are the implications of that?

And another you avoided is if Einstein's Theory of Relativity was just a theory, why do we use it then? What in your mind, is wrong with it?

[GostHacked]

Well, we're starting to go on the big circular again....and I do not have much time to waste in a discussion that isn't going to go anywhere. As you must've noticed I post sporadically....and do not post as much as I used to. So I'll just say again, you're entitled to your own opinion.

We end up going in circles because the original question has yet to be answered.

Working scientific theories are not opinions. I suspect the reason you don't post here much is because there are not many who share your exact views. And to me it seems like you would rather discuss this topic with like minded individuals (on the other forums) to reinforce your own beliefs. This is your validation. When you get challenged on it in any way you could state that it is 'opinion' and leave it at that without any real discussion.

[betsy]

Not baiting you, you came back to the site after a year absence on your own. But while you are here, I will engage in some discussion.
And what other people chose is their business as well. But you would rather atheists become agnostics. My guess is that you feel it's one step towards being a Christian/believer in god.

If agnosticism is really the only way to go because a believer and an atheist can't know with 100% certainty that their position is right.

I have a big problem with that word "if"....makes it sound like I agree with that statement. Which I definitely don't!

I remember you now! I got upset with you the last time we were having a very heated debate on one of the evolution/religion threads because of your method of debating. If I'm not mistaken you deliberately twisted my statements or taken it out of context, and tried to pass it off to support your argument. I refused to have any more further discussion with you at the time for really....dishonest methods have no place in a mature or any discussion (and I'm hoping for a mature discussion in this forum)....because what's the point?

I am giving it the benefit of the doubt that you have only misunderstood (again)....or just a typo error on your part and that you're not implying I am endorsing Agnosticism for EVERYBODY.

I hope you're not using that style now....because that is definitely a deal-breaker when it comes to debate in a forum!

So when are you becoming an agnostic? It really is a serious question.

If you understood my posts, treating that question as a joke or taking it as an attempt at humor on your part is actually an attempt at diplomacy on my part. I have no wish to spoon-feed you. Read my posts in whole and understand what you read....don't just skim over it.

I won't find salvation in Christ, I already tried that method. It did not work out for me, I did not get any answers or direction. So I did the next best thing. I found salvation within myself. And it has worked for me since that revelation. As the saying goes God helps those who help themselves. I am helping myself.

Now, this part is interesting. Why didn't it work for you? What answers were you seeking? Did you read the Bible and try to understand it?

You used the word "salvation." What do you exactly mean when you say "salvation?" What do you really mean by having found "salvation within yourself?"

As the saying goes God helps those who help themselves. I am helping myself

That quote above, plus the way you used the word, "salvation."
Salvation is a very highly significant Christian term, and you used it in the spiritual context....plus your reference to God.

...God helps those who help themselves. I am helping myself.

This actually means asking for the help of God. In your subconscious perhaps....

By the sound of it, the existence of God is not just a possibility for you.. You believe He definitely does exists.

The parable of The Shepherd looking for His lost Sheep. The sheep are not the non-believers....for how can something which has not been found get lost. The sheep are Christians who had gone astray.
Christ has a way of finding them.... even in most unlikely of places. You never know....

I was a "lazy" Christian.....didn't take it seriously....strayed away....disillussioned with the Catholic religion. Although I've always verbally maintained my belief in Christ, it was not enough. Something was hollow deep inside. Something was terribly missing.
I re-discovered Christ and this time would like to really understand God and what He really want....not what I want.
So I'm reading the Bible (because if I wish to know Him, I should read His book), I finished it once....second go is with the help of a study....and I will read and keep re-reading it until the day I die. Because it gives me comfort. It gives me strenght. I have no fear. Come what may. It helps me keep my focus.
I said it before, and I'll say it again....belief is very personal.

Also you have not answered my other questions which I really want to know. What if I chose another religion that does not follow Christ, or any prophet or god? What are the implications of that?

Now your persistence with this question is quite intriguing because I've already answered this. Your preoccupation with the implication of not following Christ.....all I can advise you is to open and read the Bible and talk to a pastor. I can only stress that you have to!
Your question about the grave implication - consequence- of not following Christ, when you claimed to have been an ex-Christian, is quite alarming!
For a Christian...or a former Christian to not know the full grave implication of not following Christ....suggests that you didn't even know the basic principle of the religion you were following. And for you to not know or understand the very heart and BASIC principle of that religion....it obviously suggests the big possibility that you also don't understand your claimed position now as an agnostic. You are confused....and I don't say that as an insult.

I read the King James version. I hardly go to church (I know I should)....but when I do, I find that the Baptist is pretty close in following the exact Word of God. It is important to know the Bible so you'll know whether you're being misled or what.

I would highly recommend listening to Charles Price....he actually was an instrument in my re-found faith. He made understanding the Bible seem so easy that I got into it. I pray and hope that you re-discover Christ.

Edited by betsy, 04 September 2010 - 07:18 AM.

[GostHacked]

I have a big problem with that word "if"....makes it sound like I agree with that statement. Which I definitely don't!

I remember you now! I got upset with you the last time we were having a very heated debate on one of the evolution/religion threads because of your method of debating. If I'm not mistaken you deliberately twisted my statements or taken it out of context, and tried to pass it off to support your argument. I refused to have any more further discussion with you at the time for really....dishonest methods have no place in a mature or any discussion (and I'm hoping for a mature discussion in this forum)....because what's the point?

I think when it came to talking about the science itself and how it's done, that is where you got upset. It showed you had no idea how the scientific method works and how scientists come to a theory and why a scientific theory is just more than a theory. If you want to get into a philysophical debate about god and religion, that's cool with me, I like those debates they kind of fascinate me. Trust me, I am curious of religion, not because I want or need to beleive in god, it's because I want to understand why others beleive in it. Call it understanding the human condition. If you think I am being dishonest in anyway, then you don't have to reply to me anymore.

With the last thread or two, I even asked you those questions. You discarded them and me as being dishonest and dropped off the threads. I was not genuine in my asking. I am not out to corner you into anything or convert you. To each his own.

But it's the 'IF' you don't want to deal with or even remotely consider. You ask of others to consider it, but not yourself. And that is where I have the problem.

One of Christ's teachings is do unto others as you would have them do to you. It can also be interpreted as, if you are not willing to do something, there is no way you can ask others to do it.

I am giving it the benefit of the doubt that you have only misunderstood (again)....or just a typo error on your part and that you're not implying I am endorsing Agnosticism for EVERYBODY.

Why endorse it at all then? Why for one group and not another? And why ask of it of others, if you are not willing to do it yourself? It's a serious question. One you don't have to answer, but at least consider it.

I hope you're not using that style now....because that is definitely a deal-breaker when it comes to debate in a forum!

Maybe a deal breaker for you, but after you leave again, I'll still engage in debate here on MLW. With or without you, life goes on. It's bit harsh, but that is reality. If you find a nice forum where people hold your views as well, then by all means, enjoy. But this is why we go on these forums to talk to others who don't hold the same view as your own.

If you understood my posts, treating that question as a joke or taking it as an attempt at humor on your part is actually an attempt at diplomacy on my part. I have no wish to spoon-feed you. Read my posts in whole and understand what you read....don't just skim over it
Now, this part is interesting. Why didn't it work for you? What answers were you seeking? Did you read the Bible and try to understand it?

If god was there before the book, then the book does not have the answers. I tried to engage god in a one on one. I did not get any replies. Not because I was not open to it, as a child I was. However when many cries went unanswered, I started to seek out the answers myself. This is part of my salvation. If anything is going to get done in my life, it is of my doing. If I fail, I can't blame god, just like if I succeed, I can't give god credit for it.

You used the word "salvation." What do you exactly mean when you say "salvation?" What do you really mean by having found "salvation within yourself?"

Salvation might not be the right term, but it's one the religous use often to describe themselves after finding god. At peace with themselves and the world around them. They found salvation, or comfort if you will, when they engage in their religion. For me, I found salvation and comfort in myself, because I am the one making it all happen. I don't really like to rely on others, but I know I can, when I need it. Maybe because I am confident in myself and my life that I have no reason to seek out someone who has answers to questions I have long answered myself.

That quote above, plus the way you used the word, "salvation."
Salvation is a very highly significant Christian term, and you used it in the spiritual context....plus your reference to God This actually means asking for the help of God. In your subconscious perhaps....

I used the term as something you can relate to. Again it may not be the proper term, but I'll use it for now untill I find a better one that fits.

Somehow, the existence of God is not just a possibility for you.. You still believe He does exists.

Wrong. I am open to the idea that he possibly exists. There is nothing definitive to show me that god is 100% real. And this is why athiests exist, the lack of any evidence (other than a book) logically leads them to come to the conclusion that no evidence means that god is not real.

The parable of The Shepherd looking for His lost Sheep. The sheep are not the non-believers....for how can something which has not been found get lost. The sheep are Christians who had gone astray.
Christ has a way of finding them.... even in most unlikely of places. You never know....

But that's all I see the bible as. Parables, tales, stories, analogies. It was written by man over centuries and I would guess the original intent and meaning of the book has been lost in translations over the eons. How can we be sure that this is the word of god, when it has changed so much.

I was a "lazy" Christian.....didn't take it seriously....strayed away....disillussioned with the Catholic religion.

One thing I don't understand is how and why people convert from one religion to another. From Christianity to Catholocism or Judiasm, or whatever. I guess it is because they believe a certain way, and sometimes they find out that the religion they were brought up in, no longer has the answers they seek.

Although I've always verbally maintained my belief in Christ, it was not enough. Something was hollow deep inside. Something was terribly missing.
I re-discovered Christ and this time would like to really understand God and what He really want....not what I want.
So I'm reading the Bible (because if I wish to know Him, I should read His book), I finished it once....second go is with the help of a study....and I will read and keep re-reading it until the day I die. Because it gives me comfort. It gives me strenght. I have no fear. Come what may. It helps me keep my focus.
I said it before, and I'll say it again....belief is very personal.

Oh I agree it is very personal. My late Oma was a very religous person but I never really knew about it untill she passed. Not even really sure what religion she followed, if it was a 'traditional' religion. My parents had told me that. But it worked for her, and eventhough she knew I was more of an agnostic/athiest, she still kept her religion to herself. This is her salvation. She did not need anyone else but her own god, however she interpreted it. That's what kept her at ease.

But again it comes down to an interpretation of god.

Personally I have no use for a god. Whether I believe in him or not, does not affect how I life my life and how I treat others. If I find god, I don't see it racically changing mylife for the better. It's pretty good as it is.

Now your persistence with this question is quite intriguing because I've already answered this. Your preoccupation with the implication of not following Christ.....all I can advise you is to read the Bible on your own or talk to a pastor. I read the King James version. I hardly goto church (I know I should)....but when I do, I find that the Baptist is pretty close in following the exact Word of God. It is important to know the Bible so you'll know whether you're being misled or what.

You don't need to go to church to be a good christian. You just need to keep doing what you are doing, read the book daily and follow the teachings yourself. You don't need someone every week to remind you or tell you how to do it.

I would highly recommend listening to Charles Price....he actually was an instrument in my re-found faith. He made understanding the Bible seem so easy that I got into it. I pray and hope that you re-discover Christ.

Thing is, I have yet to discover Christ. So I can't rediscover it.

I like the live let live when it comes to religion. I don't care what you essentially beleive in. If it truely works for you then go for it and find all the salvation and comfort in it. I have chosen to believe in myself, because at least that much I know is true.

Edited by GostHacked, 04 September 2010 - 07:07 AM.

[betsy]

I think when it came to talking about the science itself and how it's done, that is where you got upset. It showed you had no idea how the scientific method works and how scientists come to a theory and why a scientific theory is just more than a theory. If you want to get into a philysophical debate about god and religion, that's cool with me, I like those debates they kind of fascinate me. Trust me, I am curious of religion, not because I want or need to beleive in god, it's because I want to understand why others beleive in it. Call it understanding the human condition. If you think I am being dishonest in anyway, then you don't have to reply to me anymore.
With the last thread or two, I even asked you those questions. You discarded them and me as being dishonest and dropped off the threads. I was not genuine in my asking. I am not out to corner you into anything or convert you. To each his own.
But it's the 'IF' you don't want to deal with or even remotely consider. You ask of others to consider it, but not yourself. And that is where I have the problem.
One of Christ's teachings is do unto others as you would have them do to you. It can also be interpreted as, if you are not willing to do something, there is no way you can ask others to do it.
Why endorse it at all then? Why for one group and not another? And why ask of it of others, if you are not willing to do it yourself? It's a serious question. One you don't have to answer, but at least consider it.
Maybe a deal breaker for you, but after you leave again, I'll still engage in debate here on MLW. With or without you, life goes on. It's bit harsh, but that is reality. If you find a nice forum where people hold your views as well, then by all means, enjoy. But this is why we go on these forums to talk to others who don't hold the same view as your own.

If god was there before the book, then the book does not have the answers. I tried to engage god in a one on one. I did not get any replies. Not because I was not open to it, as a child I was. However when many cries went unanswered, I started to seek out the answers myself. This is part of my salvation. If anything is going to get done in my life, it is of my doing. If I fail, I can't blame god, just like if I succeed, I can't give god credit for it.

Salvation might not be the right term, but it's one the religous use often to describe themselves after finding god. At peace with themselves and the world around them. They found salvation, or comfort if you will, when they engage in their religion. For me, I found salvation and comfort in myself, because I am the one making it all happen. I don't really like to rely on others, but I know I can, when I need it. Maybe because I am confident in myself and my life that I have no reason to seek out someone who has answers to questions I have long answered myself.
I used the term as something you can relate to. Again it may not be the proper term, but I'll use it for now untill I find a better one that fits.

Wrong. I am open to the idea that he possibly exists. There is nothing definitive to show me that god is 100% real. And this is why athiests exist, the lack of any evidence (other than a book) logically leads them to come to the conclusion that no evidence means that god is not real.

But that's all I see the bible as. Parables, tales, stories, analogies. It was written by man over centuries and I would guess the original intent and meaning of the book has been lost in translations over the eons. How can we be sure that this is the word of god, when it has changed so much.
One thing I don't understand is how and why people convert from one religion to another. From Christianity to Catholocism or Judiasm, or whatever. I guess it is because they believe a certain way, and sometimes they find out that the religion they were brought up in, no longer has the answers they seek.

Oh I agree it is very personal. My late Oma was a very religous person but I never really knew about it untill she passed. Not even really sure what religion she followed, if it was a 'traditional' religion. My parents had told me that. But it worked for her, and eventhough she knew I was more of an agnostic/athiest, she still kept her religion to herself. This is her salvation. She did not need anyone else but her own god, however she interpreted it. That's what kept her at ease.

But again it comes down to an interpretation of god.

Personally I have no use for a god. Whether I believe in him or not, does not affect how I life my life and how I treat others. If I find god, I don't see it racically changing mylife for the better. It's pretty good as it is.

You don't need to go to church to be a good christian. You just need to keep doing what you are doing, read the book daily and follow the teachings yourself. You don't need someone every week to remind you or tell you how to do it.

Thing is, I have yet to discover Christ. So I can't rediscover it.

I like the live let live when it comes to religion. I don't care what you essentially beleive in. If it truely works for you then go for it and find all the salvation and comfort in it. I have chosen to believe in myself, because at least that much I know is true.

I must've confused you for somebody else because sometime last year, I did get upset with someone not because he/she did not share my views....but because of the way my statement was deliberately taken out of context or twisted about (I don't remember the exact detail). And for that I apologise.

I've had a lot of differences of opinion all the way back from when I first started on this forum. The several debates last year got heated up for sure but they were not as heated up nor as fiery as the ones I've had before way way back (most of the hardcore debates then were about homosexuality, religion, aftermath of 9/11, Harper, Child Molesting Priests, etc). So I'm used to toxic debates and as you can see I'm still around...still carrying the same position, waving the same flag. I don't think having everyone agreeing with my view makes for an interesting debate. There won't be anything to argue about.

Look, the question you're asking about (the one with the if)....it doesn't make any sense to me considering I've already explained my position. I just wanted to make a correction so it doesn't get misconstrued that I said anything remotely like that (since the statement could also be misunderstood in that context). As for ignoring the question...I don't like to repeat myself as much as possible. I've already given explanations/opinion that makes that question sort of redundant....since those opinion/explanation apply as answers to that question.
As I've told you before....I don't have enough time now to spare sitting in front of the computer.
That's why I was also reluctant to get into any lengthy debates.

The reason I dropped off was because I found myself spending too much time in front of the computer tinkering away at the forum. It was beginning to interfere...to be some sort of a bad habit on my part....like an addiction (I even found myself sneaking in to post during break-time at work)...so I weaned myself away from it. I think every now and then some posters drop off for a break then pop up again. I'm more like that lately. That's all. I'm not angry with anyone even though we've come to heated arguments. Just depends now what topic happens to grab my interest....and lately not that much. I guess I've reached a point of saturation with the subjects that used to interest me....

As for the rest, thank you for opening up and sharing your views. I wish you well.

Edited by betsy, 04 September 2010 - 12:37 PM.

[bloodyminded]

I must've confused you for somebody else because sometime last year, I did get upset with someone not because he/she did not share my views....but because of the way my statement was deliberately taken out of context or twisted about (I don't remember the exact detail). And for that I apologise.

While I doubt it was Gosthacked, who is an honest debater, no doubt someone or someones did deliberately twist your words out of context. This happens a lot, and as you know, it is intensely irritating.

The reason I dropped off was because I found myself spending too much time in front of the computer tinkering away at the forum. It was beginning to interfere...to be some sort of a bad habit on my part....like an addiction

I periodically drop out too. There are other things to do sometimes.

[GostHacked]

While I doubt it was Gosthacked, who is an honest debater, no doubt someone or someones did deliberately twist your words out of context. This happens a lot, and as you know, it is intensely irritating.

It could have been me. People do get frustrated with my posting style. Something I have worked on in the last year or so.

I periodically drop out too. There are other things to do sometimes.

Indeed there are. I spent the better part of the weekend working on music stuff, and some gamin! Had not played TF2 in a couple months. I still got it though!!

[Oleg Bach]

True enough. This whole argument stinks of Appeal to Authority.

In my tiny mind I do not view the idea of God as authoritarian...if he or "it" was an authoritarian bully we would be much better behaved. As for "moral principles" - "God rains on the wicked as well as the good"...The other mis-adventure in human thought concerning God is that there is this on going battle between good - God and evil - that is silly...GOD is ALMIGHTY..and he created evil as well as good..He controls both if he wishes - are game is to sort it out - and by doing so - seperating evil from the good - we survive...that's the game - to keep on living - and the wages of sinisterism is death

...as I have always said - to be sinful or sinister...and bring about your own demise...is just plain stupid - hence my idea that evil and stupidity are the same thing - the proof of the existance of God is the presense of intelligent life in the universe - conciousness...THAT'S ENOUGH FOR ME - THAT WE ARE THE MIRACLE...AND WE ARE A FAINT IMAGE OF SOME GRAND CREATOR - BUT WE ARE NOT HIM..JUST A COPY.......



SO if you stop believing in God - God stops believing in YOU ...and when we stop believing in God - He stops existing - and in time we also disappear.

[maple_leafs182]

Einstein was not an atheist....he was a deist.

To me it sounds like he has more of a pantheist view.

[Oleg Bach]

To me it sounds like he has more of a pantheist view.

Well as I mentioned the absence of intelligence is the absence of God - Einstein understood that our very existance and the fact that we know we are on some speck of dust in an endless universe...IS the miracle...those with more mundane mentalities look for silly magical things like turning water into wine...or some guy yelling out the window in regards to the mother of a great prophet "I did not have sex with that woman"... Firstly magic simply means "trick" - and why would anyone in their right mind make water into wine after a long drinking bout in a desert climate - at a wedding? Surely the reverse took place - the wine was gone and he served up water - cool water....hence "you have saved the best till last" - It was a godamned joke! People just don't get it - we are the miracle..what more proof do people need?


I can surely say that all evidence points at the fact that Steven Hawkins is a stupifed etheist..for God's sake look at the guy - God surely hates his guts.

[bloodyminded]

It could have been me. People do get frustrated with my posting style. Something I have worked on in the last year or so.



Indeed there are. I spent the better part of the weekend working on music stuff, and some gamin! Had not played TF2 in a couple months. I still got it though!!

Is it like riding a bicycle?

[GostHacked]

Is it like riding a bicycle?

A new mouse helped as well. Got that Razor Mamba, it's not cheap, its about $150, but super accurate and very responsive. Only drawback is the battery does not last long when using wireless.

My mouse wheel is also squeaking on it .. guess it needs some lube.

[wyly]

In my tiny mind I do not view the idea of God as authoritarian...if he or "it" was an authoritarian bully we would be much better behaved. As for "moral principles" - "God rains on the wicked as well as the good"...The other mis-adventure in human thought concerning God is that there is this on going battle between good - God and evil - that is silly...GOD is ALMIGHTY..and he created evil as well as good..He controls both if he wishes - are game is to sort it out - and by doing so - seperating evil from the good - we survive...that's the game - to keep on living - and the wages of sinisterism is death

...as I have always said - to be sinful or sinister...and bring about your own demise...is just plain stupid - hence my idea that evil and stupidity are the same thing - the proof of the existance of God is the presense of intelligent life in the universe - conciousness...THAT'S ENOUGH FOR ME - THAT WE ARE THE MIRACLE...AND WE ARE A FAINT IMAGE OF SOME GRAND CREATOR - BUT WE ARE NOT HIM..JUST A COPY.......



SO if you stop believing in God - God stops believing in YOU ...and when we stop believing in God - He stops existing - and in time we also disappear.

so two million men women children and babies get crushed in Haiti even though this all powerful god with of a twitch of his eyebrow could prevent it...your god sounds like a psychopath, or more likely there is no god...

[wyly]

I can surely say that all evidence points at the fact that Steven Hawkins is a stupifed etheist..for God's sake look at the guy - God surely hates his guts.

really?...I can't imagine what all those dead Haitian babies did that god hates them even more than Hawking...those babies must have been real bad asses...