I have a big problem with that word "if"....makes it sound like I agree with that statement. Which I definitely don't!
I remember you now! I got upset with you the last time we were having a very heated debate on one of the evolution/religion threads because of your method of debating. If I'm not mistaken you deliberately twisted my statements or taken it out of context, and tried to pass it off to support your argument. I refused to have any more further discussion with you at the time for really....dishonest methods have no place in a mature or any discussion (and I'm hoping for a mature discussion in this forum)....because what's the point?
I think when it came to talking about the science itself and how it's done, that is where you got upset. It showed you had no idea how the scientific method works and how scientists come to a theory and why a scientific theory is just more than a theory. If you want to get into a philysophical debate about god and religion, that's cool with me, I like those debates they kind of fascinate me. Trust me, I am curious of religion, not because I want or need to beleive in god, it's because I want to understand why others beleive in it. Call it understanding the human condition. If you think I am being dishonest in anyway, then you don't have to reply to me anymore.
With the last thread or two, I even asked you those questions. You discarded them and me as being dishonest and dropped off the threads. I was not genuine in my asking. I am not out to corner you into anything or convert you. To each his own.
But it's the 'IF' you don't want to deal with or even remotely consider. You ask of others to consider it, but not yourself. And that is where I have the problem.
One of Christ's teachings is do unto others as you would have them do to you. It can also be interpreted as, if you are not willing to do something, there is no way you can ask others to do it.
I am giving it the benefit of the doubt that you have only misunderstood (again)....or just a typo error on your part and that you're not implying I am endorsing Agnosticism for EVERYBODY.
Why endorse it at all then? Why for one group and not another? And why ask of it of others, if you are not willing to do it yourself? It's a serious question. One you don't have to answer, but at least consider it.
I hope you're not using that style now....because that is definitely a deal-breaker when it comes to debate in a forum!
Maybe a deal breaker for you, but after you leave again, I'll still engage in debate here on MLW. With or without you, life goes on. It's bit harsh, but that is reality. If you find a nice forum where people hold your views as well, then by all means, enjoy. But this is why we go on these forums to talk to others who don't hold the same view as your own.
If you understood my posts, treating that question as a joke or taking it as an attempt at humor on your part is actually an attempt at diplomacy on my part. I have no wish to spoon-feed you. Read my posts in whole and understand what you read....don't just skim over it
Now, this part is interesting. Why didn't it work for you? What answers were you seeking? Did you read the Bible and try to understand it?
If god was there before the book, then the book does not have the answers. I tried to engage god in a one on one. I did not get any replies. Not because I was not open to it, as a child I was. However when many cries went unanswered, I started to seek out the answers myself. This is part of my salvation. If anything is going to get done in my life, it is of my doing. If I fail, I can't blame god, just like if I succeed, I can't give god credit for it.
You used the word "salvation." What do you exactly mean when you say "salvation?" What do you really mean by having found "salvation within yourself?"
Salvation might not be the right term, but it's one the religous use often to describe themselves after finding god. At peace with themselves and the world around them. They found salvation, or comfort if you will, when they engage in their religion. For me, I found salvation and comfort in myself, because I am the one making it all happen. I don't really like to rely on others, but I know I can, when I need it. Maybe because I am confident in myself and my life that I have no reason to seek out someone who has answers to questions I have long answered myself.
That quote above, plus the way you used the word, "salvation."
Salvation is a very highly significant Christian term, and you used it in the spiritual context....plus your reference to God This actually means asking for the help of God. In your subconscious perhaps....
I used the term as something you can relate to. Again it may not be the proper term, but I'll use it for now untill I find a better one that fits.
Somehow, the existence of God is not just a possibility for you.. You still believe He does exists.
Wrong. I am open to the idea that he possibly exists. There is nothing definitive to show me that god is 100% real. And this is why athiests exist, the lack of any evidence (other than a book) logically leads them to come to the conclusion that no evidence means that god is not real.
The parable of The Shepherd looking for His lost Sheep. The sheep are not the non-believers....for how can something which has not been found get lost. The sheep are Christians who had gone astray.
Christ has a way of finding them.... even in most unlikely of places. You never know....
But that's all I see the bible as. Parables, tales, stories, analogies. It was written by man over centuries and I would guess the original intent and meaning of the book has been lost in translations over the eons. How can we be sure that this is the word of god, when it has changed so much.
I was a "lazy" Christian.....didn't take it seriously....strayed away....disillussioned with the Catholic religion.
One thing I don't understand is how and why people convert from one religion to another. From Christianity to Catholocism or Judiasm, or whatever. I guess it is because they believe a certain way, and sometimes they find out that the religion they were brought up in, no longer has the answers they seek.
Although I've always verbally maintained my belief in Christ, it was not enough. Something was hollow deep inside. Something was terribly missing.
I re-discovered Christ and this time would like to really understand God and what He really want....not what I want.
So I'm reading the Bible (because if I wish to know Him, I should read His book), I finished it once....second go is with the help of a study....and I will read and keep re-reading it until the day I die. Because it gives me comfort. It gives me strenght. I have no fear. Come what may. It helps me keep my focus.
I said it before, and I'll say it again....belief is very personal.
Oh I agree it is very personal. My late Oma was a very religous person but I never really knew about it untill she passed. Not even really sure what religion she followed, if it was a 'traditional' religion. My parents had told me that. But it worked for her, and eventhough she knew I was more of an agnostic/athiest, she still kept her religion to herself. This is her salvation. She did not need anyone else but her own god, however she interpreted it. That's what kept her at ease.
But again it comes down to an interpretation of god.
Personally I have no use for a god. Whether I believe in him or not, does not affect how I life my life and how I treat others. If I find god, I don't see it racically changing mylife for the better. It's pretty good as it is.
Now your persistence with this question is quite intriguing because I've already answered this. Your preoccupation with the implication of not following Christ.....all I can advise you is to read the Bible on your own or talk to a pastor. I read the King James version. I hardly goto church (I know I should)....but when I do, I find that the Baptist is pretty close in following the exact Word of God. It is important to know the Bible so you'll know whether you're being misled or what.
You don't need to go to church to be a good christian. You just need to keep doing what you are doing, read the book daily and follow the teachings yourself. You don't need someone every week to remind you or tell you how to do it.
I would highly recommend listening to Charles Price....he actually was an instrument in my re-found faith. He made understanding the Bible seem so easy that I got into it. I pray and hope that you re-discover Christ.
Thing is, I have yet to discover Christ. So I can't rediscover it.
I like the live let live when it comes to religion. I don't care what you essentially beleive in. If it truely works for you then go for it and find all the salvation and comfort in it. I have chosen to believe in myself, because at least that much I know is true.
Edited by GostHacked, 04 September 2010 - 07:07 AM.