154 replies to this topic

[betsy]

No they don't pack heat. Mostly harmless the JWs are. The Christians came with armies.....

JWs - are you referring to Jehovah's Witness? Aren't they Christians?

[DogOnPorch]

JWs - are you referring to Jehovah's Witness? Aren't they Christians?

Not as such in that they don't believe in the holy trinity of your God.

[DogOnPorch]

So no matter how one views the Crusades, given your two examples, your answer is 'a loooong time ago;' and therefore it has no bearing on today's world.

Understanding how the Muslims aquired Jerusalem when they did and why it became a Muslim 'holy site' is key to understanding today's situation in the Levant.

[betsy]

Because that's never been tried before...

Yes it's been done before.....not too openly in most dangerous places I guess. That's why there are Arab Christians. It was mentioned in a talk show that there are even small Christian communities in the midst of Muslims (Can't recall what country).

Some countries are chasing away missionaries because Muslims are bleeding out to the Christian faith!

What she's suggesting is really to go after the immigrant Muslims - a concerted effort between Christians (showing a benign God), feminists (to show them that they - especially women - need not put up with oppression), and humanists (to show them that they are not alone).

Right now Hirsi Ali is an Atheist. With her painful experience as a Muslim, it's not surprising. But given time, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that she becomes a Christian convert!

Edited by betsy, 13 September 2010 - 01:03 PM.

[ToadBrother]

Agreement. Folks often wrongly view the Crusades as Christian aggression...but it was a response (in slow-motion) to Islamic invasions.

It's a delightful story. In reality it was the Papacy and the Christian princes of Western Europe hoping to seize control of one of the most important trade routes on the planet. You'll notice that the Crusader states founded in the Holy Land weren't giving a nod to Byzantium, or in any way restoring that territory to the Byzantine Emperors. Quite the opposite, the Fourth Crusade saw the Crusaders seize Constantinople, loot the place of its riches and set up the Latin Empire in its place. The Fourth Crusade not only was the final event that lead to the complete schism between the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Churches, it's by and large the reason that the Byzantine Empire was so horrifically weakened that it was ultimately toppled by the Turks.

[ToadBrother]

Yes it's been done before.....not too openly in most dangerous places I guess. That's why there are Arab Christians.

I would suspect most Arab Christians in the Middle East, like the Copts and the Palestinian Christians, are in fact the descendants of the Christians who occupied the region since before the Muslim invasions. The same for the Syrian Christians and other such groups. They're not the products of any kind of evangelistic effort, but survivors from pre-Muslim times.

Edited by ToadBrother, 13 September 2010 - 01:00 PM.

[ToadBrother]

Understanding how the Muslims aquired Jerusalem when they did and why it became a Muslim 'holy site' is key to understanding today's situation in the Levant.

They acquired Jerusalem by toppling the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, which was about as native a state as the Turkish state that followed. I mean, the Kingdom's rulers has names like Baldwin and Amalric, not exactly what one would call good Palestinian names. On top of that, they even imposed some level of Catholic dominance over the Orthodox church hierarchy in the region.

Perhaps the history of the region is a tad bit more complex than you stated.

[betsy]

deleted. double posting.

Edited by betsy, 13 September 2010 - 01:09 PM.

[betsy]

Look up "Crusades" some day. For related reading, look up what happened to the Moors when Ferdinand and Isabella completed the re-Christianization of the Iberian Peninsula.

A lot of horrors done in the name of Christianity. Don't forget the dreadful Inquisition. Even the present-day horrors committed by molesting priests.

But again I must stress out that these transgressions were and are being made by MEN!

In my view - and I must stress that this is my pov - Satan was, and still is prolific and resourceful in getting mankind to turn away from God!

Edited by betsy, 13 September 2010 - 01:08 PM.

[ToadBrother]

A lot of horrors done in the name of Christianity. Don't forget the dreadful Inquisition. Even the present-day horrors committed by molesting priests.

But again I must stress out that these transgressions were and are being made by MEN!

Isabella was a woman.

In my view - and I must stress that this is my pov - Satan was, and still is prolific and resourceful in getting mankind to turn away from God!

Which has precious little to do with what I said. As a non-Christian, I'm not bound by your particular rationalizations or apologetics.

Edited by ToadBrother, 13 September 2010 - 01:10 PM.

[betsy]

I would suspect most Arab Christians in the Middle East, like the Copts and the Palestinian Christians, are in fact the descendants of the Christians who occupied the region since before the Muslim invasions. The same for the Syrian Christians and other such groups. They're not the products of any kind of evangelistic effort, but survivors from pre-Muslim times.

There are missionaries in some dangerous places. Charles Price didn't name the countries (for obvious reasons).....but he talked about smuggling Bibles into those places!

[DogOnPorch]

They acquired Jerusalem by toppling the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, which was about as native a state as the Turkish state that followed. I mean, the Kingdom's rulers has names like Baldwin and Amalric, not exactly what one would call good Palestinian names. On top of that, they even imposed some level of Catholic dominance over the Orthodox church hierarchy in the region.

Perhaps the history of the region is a tad bit more complex than you stated.

Incorrect. Jerusalem fell to the Muslims in 637 AD. Omar was the one that made the claim that Jerusalem was infact the 'furthest mosque' mentioned in the Koran.

[betsy]

Isabella was a woman.

She can be a lesbo for all I care! Or a transvestite!

Oh boy, details really get in the way of a nice little discussion. Details that actually mean nothing!

[ToadBrother]

There are missionaries in some dangerous places. Charles Price didn't name the countries (for obvious reasons).....but he talked about smuggling Bibles into those places!

I don't exactly see a flood of Evangelical Christians in the Middle East. If there were, I would suspect the largest outcry wouldn't come from Muslims, but rather from the Copts, Palestinian and Lebanese Christians, the Syriac Church, the Nestorians and so forth. A lot of these churches, like the Coptic Church, in fact have a special status in their home countries, and the Coptic Church is probably the oldest single extant tradition of Christianity on the planet.

[ToadBrother]

She can be a lesbo for all I care! Or a transvestite!

Oh boy, details really get in the way of a nice little discussion. Details that actually mean nothing!

You blamed men in general, and I pointed out a woman, and not just any woman, but probably one of the most powerful women of the period who quite gleefully contributed to the exile and tens of thousands of Moors and Jews, and no few tortures, recantations and murders as well, even of Moors and Jews who had publicly espoused Christianity.

The problem here is that you don't like being a co-religionist with some nasty people, so you invent rationalizations to get around it.