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#1 betsy

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 08:35 AM

I remember on one occasion being in a high school in England. And I was talking to a class of kids when a girl put her hand up and she said to me, “Do you believe in creation?”
So I said, “Yes, I do.”
And she said, “Eww, nobody believes that these days.”
I said, “You’re wrong. I do.”
She said, “Eww, I don’t.”
I said, “So what do you believe?”
She said, “I believe we just happened.”
“What do you mean we just happened?”
“Well, there was a piece of matter that exploded.”
“Where did that matter come from?”
“It just happened.”

And I am not doing justice to her now – I am going to just shorthand what she
said, but basically a piece of matter exploded and was blasted across the universe
in little pieces. Some pieces were hot; some pieces were cold. The hot pieces
created a gravitational pull that caused the cold pieces to revolve around the hot
pieces. One hot piece was the sun; one cold piece was the earth.
On the earth there was land and there was sea and there was algae that formed in
the sea and the algae began to swim and develop some fins. And one day the
algae fell out of the pond, began to walk, climbed a tree, ate a banana, scratched
itself, came down the tree and became a human being.

Now I’m speeding up the process, but that’s basically what she said.
I said, “Do you believe that?”
She said, “Yes.”
I said, “Eww.”
I said, “Let me tell you something.” I said, “I have got a watch here. But let me
tell you where I got my watch from.” I said, “You may find this hard to believe
but I’ll tell you where I got this from.”
“In the town where I live” I said, “there is a main street and on the main street
there are several shops. There is a jewellers, there is a leather shop, there is a
paint shop, there is a glass shop, there is an ironmonger and there is a gas mains
that runs down that street.”
“And one day that gas mains exploded and these shops just blew up into
smithereens and pieces of metal were flying around and pieces of glass were
flying around. And some of these pieces of metal came together, a few jewels
came and landed on them, another piece of metal came and landed on the top and
then a paint pot flew by; the lid happened to come off, a paintbrush happened to
dip inside and go “boop, boop, boop, boop twelve times and then another little
paintbrush went doodldoodlo 60 times and then two little skinny little bits of
metal landed, and another like that.”
“And then a piece of glass flew by, landed on the top, a screwdriver flew by,
stopped, screwed in four places. And then a piece of leather smashed into the
side, another piece of leather smacked into the other side. And the whole thing
landed in the rubble and I went through the rubble, picked it up and found it and
it’s kept perfect time ever since.”
Do you know what she said? “Eww.”
She said, “You didn’t get your watch that way.”
I said, “You have never seen my watch before. You have no idea where my
watch came from.”
She said, “You didn’t get your watch that way. You are lying to me.”
I said, “How do you know that?”
She said, “It is obvious.”
I said, “You are dead right. Of course it is obvious.”

“Do you think this watch is smart? You are smarter than this watch. What did
you have for breakfast this morning? Corn Flakes – you shovelled it in? What is
going to happen to that Corn Flakes during today? It is going to somehow inside
get broken down and going to become flesh and bone and blood.”
“I mean you tell me a machine you can just shove corn flakes into and it kind of
transforms it into itself. You are a million times smarter than this watch and you
know it’s obvious this watch is not a fluke.”

Now you say, well that’s naďve. That’s not naďve at all – that’s not naďve at all.
Effects have causes.


From: Ecclesiastes: Life Under The Sun (Part 5)
Pastor Charles Price
http://www.livingtru...s/ELS/ELS_5.pdf



As the title declares, this topic refuses to go away.

#2 Shakeyhands

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 08:40 AM

.....

Edited by Shakeyhands, 30 January 2011 - 08:42 AM.

"They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." - Friedrich Nietzsche

#3 Wild Bill

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 09:38 AM

As the title declares, this topic refuses to go away.


Betsy, that is the most illogical parable I have read since I picked up a WatchTower magazine about 20 years ago!

It paints the Big Bang theory of Creation in a childish, simplistic, totally unscientific light, completely different from how the scientific community describes it, and then having made it into something silly proceeds to label it so!

Talk about your straw men! These guys wrote the book!

Just because their understanding of science stopped in Grade 5 when their bean sprouts up and died, trying to grow out of that jar full of wet tissue paper, doesn't make them competent to comment!
"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."

-- George Bernard Shaw


"There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."

#4 BubberMiley

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 10:38 AM

I agree with Betsy that it's ridiculous to think that a god created itself. If it exists, where did it come from?
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." -George Carlin

#5 kimmy

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 11:24 AM

Betsy is the internet's answer to that wild-eyed dude who stands on the street corner and hands out Jack Chick tracts.

The easiest way to be left alone is to just take one, nod and smile, and move along quickly.


-k
"The essence of my happiness is fighting for the happiness of others." -Roza Shanina, Red Army sniper 1943-1945.

#6 eyeball

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 11:32 AM

I agree with Betsy that it's ridiculous to think that a god created itself. If it exists, where did it come from?

How about the collapse of an observer's perspective?

Every observer views a universe from it's center and when observers die and collapse around this perspective the light may just go out with wink here and in with a bang somewhere else. Eventually new generations of observers protrude their eye-stalks and what have you to renew the process of reflecting on their own perspectives.

Of course this could all just be the 'religion' that goes on in the privacy and utter isolation of my own mind - an egoistic manifesto of individualism. Oh well it is my universe I'm talking about after all. How can I help but position myself at the very center of the story when reality has placed me so squarely there?

I'm still trying to work out the physics of it all but Stephan Hawking's observation that awareness gives the universe a capacity to appreciate itself has left me wondering if there is more to that capacity than meets the eye. Creation like genesis is probably fractal in nature and maybe in or through our case it's also biological.

#7 Michael Hardner

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 11:55 AM

I agree with Betsy that it's ridiculous to think that a god created itself. If it exists, where did it come from?


That's not what the story says. It encapsulates anti-creation theory as being "the big bang just happened". It doesn't attribute any gods to that theory.

#8 Michael Hardner

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 11:56 AM

The topic refuses to go away because science will never have 100% of the answer.

#9 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 12:13 PM

I agree with Betsy that it's ridiculous to think that a god created itself. If it exists, where did it come from?


This has already been discussed in the form of logic and limit theory. If one assumes that something cannot come from nothing, then clearly some initial state must have existed.


Definition of Nothing

Economics trumps Virtue.

 

Antarctic ice melt...enough to raise global sea levels by a whopping 0.45 millimetres each year.
 


#10 betsy

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 12:25 PM

Betsy, that is the most illogical parable I have read since I picked up a WatchTower magazine about 20 years ago!

It paints the Big Bang theory of Creation in a childish, simplistic, totally unscientific light, completely different from how the scientific community describes it, and then having made it into something silly proceeds to label it so!

Talk about your straw men! These guys wrote the book!

Just because their understanding of science stopped in Grade 5 when their bean sprouts up and died, trying to grow out of that jar full of wet tissue paper, doesn't make them competent to comment!



What's illogical about the analogy?

#11 kimmy

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 12:30 PM

This has already been discussed in the form of logic and limit theory. If one assumes that something cannot come from nothing, then clearly some initial state must have existed.


Definition of Nothing


Something positive can be created from nothing, provided a corresponding negative be created simultaneously.


Reed Richards explained it in an episode of The Fantastic Four. That's why they always had to travel to the Negative Zone to fight menaces.


-k
"The essence of my happiness is fighting for the happiness of others." -Roza Shanina, Red Army sniper 1943-1945.

#12 Michael Hardner

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 12:31 PM

What's illogical about the analogy?


It's a strawman. You set up a badly worded summation of your opponent's argument (in this case, a dumb high school student articulates it) and then you tear that apart instead of the real argument.

The real answer to the big bang origin is "we don't know". You can attack that if you like.

#13 betsy

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 12:37 PM

Betsy is the internet's answer to that wild-eyed dude who stands on the street corner and hands out Jack Chick tracts.


The wild-eyed dude also screams "REPENT! THE END IS NEAR!"
One day, I might try posting along that line perhaps....:)


The easiest way to be left alone is to just take one, nod and smile, and move along quickly.
-k



I know...

And yet somehow those that you'd think would do as you suggest seem to get pulled somehow and can't resist clicking on the thread even if they totally claim to disagree. Don't get me wrong, I welcome that...whether they just came on to make their statement.

#14 betsy

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 12:43 PM

It's a strawman. You set up a badly worded summation of your opponent's argument (in this case, a dumb high school student articulates it) and then you tear that apart instead of the real argument.

The real answer to the big bang origin is "we don't know". You can attack that if you like.



Isn't that the whole point? Of course it's illogical. It's totally absurd that the universe would start that way!
That's what evolution and BIg Bang is trying to tell us. In fact the odds are better that Charles' watch would be put together that way than that of the universe.

#15 WIP

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 12:53 PM

As the title declares, this topic refuses to go away.

This topic won't go away because there's always purveyors of the latest version of the Watchmaker Argument, and a crowd of believers who believe it actually explains something! The people who believe it stay in the churches that claim they've got the answers to everything; and those of us who realized early in life that they are full of it, quietly walked out the back door and either left religion entirely, or may have ended up in one that wasn't such an insult to the intelligence of anyone seeking answers that didn't demand going to war with scientific evidence all the time.

I'm quitting for good this time.  I can't stand most of the people who post here.  Most of what passes for debate is pointless bullshit and retreaded propaganda. And I'm fed up with wasting time trying regain use of the quote feature. Time to move on to somewhere that will match my interests and concerns.




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