894 replies to this topic

[Wild Bill]

You should cite your sources. Most of us have already read Dawkins et al. The mantra is becoming tiresome. If they're not prepared to provide reasonable evidence that God does not exist, they should at least provide reasonable evidence to support their theories as to how the universe and life did begin. It's really not my concern whether they believe in God - what they believe doesn't change the truth. But atheists should accept the fact that their god - science - is turning on them. he is showing them that the universe did begin. It hasn't always been there. he even lets them call it the "big bang."

As for the evolutionary theories, they would've been dropped a hundred years ago had atheists not been so determined to avoid God. Just come up with a viable theory to explain how life began, never mind God. That's all that's required of atheists.

Well done, Betsy. You successfully ignored and avoided every point I made! I thought I was quite careful to take no stand on whether or not there is a God. You made that the point of your rebuttal and ignored everything else I had said.

Tell us the truth. Do you believe in the Genesis stories of the Bible? Do you also feel you already know how God did everything and anything, making every new Science discovery a contradiction to your faith?

Are YOU one of those who tells God how he did his works?

Edited by Wild Bill, 30 January 2011 - 05:16 PM.

[CANADIEN]

Good thing that God revelaed itself,because what is written by some of His self-proclaimed defenders would be enough to make an atheist out of me ;-)

If they're not prepared to provide reasonable evidence that God does not exist, they should at least provide reasonable evidence to support their theories as to how the universe and life did begin.

Demanding people to prove the non-existence of something, or someone, or god, is illogical. Non-existence cannot be proven.

As for the evidence supporting the Big Bang Theory, or the evolution of species... it's there for anyone to see. That atheist admit that they do not know what was before the Big bang does not change that the Big Bang did occur.

But atheists should accept the fact that their god - science - is turning on them.

Science is noone's God, and noone is cliaming it is. As for science turning on atheists... To believe that, one would have to believe that science and faith are opposite to each other... Interstingly enough, a misconception you share with at least a few atheists.

[betsy]

Well done, Betsy. You successfully ignored and avoided every point I made!

with your reply:

Well, for a start, that watch did NOT come to happen in a quick explosion. We had the explosion and it took about 11 BILLION YEARS of things coming together to make that watch happen!

Moreoever, while the creation of life took the larger first part of those 11 billion years, once it happened things were no longer entirely random. Some things work better than others once the groundwork has been prepared. Once mankind came on the picture, things started to develop at a HUGELY faster rate! We went from sundials to inventing that watch within a couple of hundred years, because there were all sorts of people all over the place busy inventing and developing all the pieces necessary to make that watch.

This is MUCH different than your analogy paints!

Looks like you had a front row seat when it all began!
Of course I believe that there's more to the fine-tuning of the universe than just chance. It's not my theory. I read it. Just like you did.

But if it's not chance and it isn't - mathematicians had shown that the odds are totally impossible, etc. - cosmologists indicate that there was in fact a beginning of the universe, it hasn't been here eternally.

If it's not chance, what are the other options? Intelligent Design, anybody? Any other suggestions?

I thought I was quite careful to take no stand on whether or not there is a God. You made that the point of your rebuttal and ignored everything else I had said.

I remember saying I don't care in fact whether you believe there is a God. Anyway, I was addressing atheists....

Tell us the truth. Do you believe in the Genesis stories of the Bible?

Yes. I don't have to defend my belief in the Scriptures. That's not the question here. The question seems to have come to be, how did the universe begin?
I, like many scientists today, can see how clearly the creation story in Genesis describes the framework of 21st century science.

Do you also feel you already know how God did everything and anything, making every new Science discovery a contradiction to your faith?

Since you brought up God.....of course I don't know God's mind. But I do know science since 1929 has increasingly supported the existence of a first-cause. If you think that's contradicting my faith, I can understand why you're not a believer.

I'm accepting your geological knowledge. What was is. None of what you said refutes the probability of a Divine Mover.

Edited by betsy, 30 January 2011 - 05:59 PM.

[betsy]

Good thing that God revelaed itself,because what is written by some of His self-proclaimed defenders would be enough to make an atheist out of me ;-)
Demanding people to prove the non-existence of something, or someone, or god, is illogical. Non-existence cannot be proven.

I didn't say to prove it. I said provide evidence.

As for the evidence supporting the Big Bang Theory, or the evolution of species... it's there for anyone to see. That atheist admit that they do not know what was before the Big bang does not change that the Big Bang did occur.

Nobody's refuting that the Big Bang did not occur. But atheists see what they want to see, and avoid what they want to avoid.

Do you believe there was nothing before? Oh I don't expect you to fall for that.

Creating this universe from nothing will be more than amazing. What do you think was there before? I imagine what I believe was there before is more probable. Science and Philosophy back me up. To say nothing of the Bible.

Science is noone's God, and noone is cliaming it is.

Oh then it's Dawkins...and all his goddettes?

As for science turning on atheists... To believe that, one would have to believe that science and faith are opposite to each other... Interstingly enough, a misconception you share with at least a few atheists.

I'm not entirely clear what you're saying here but perhaps I shouldn't have been so figurative. Let me put it another way. The scientific evidence that atheists rely on is no longer as supportive of the atheistic view.

[Michael Hardner]

Betsy Before this discussion continues, may I ask you what an 'atheist' is ?

Is it someone who doesn't believe in God ? Or someone who believes there is no God ?

[betsy]

Betsy Before this discussion continues, may I ask you what an 'atheist' is ?

Is it someone who doesn't believe in God ? Or someone who believes there is no God ?

believes there's no God.

If he believes there is a God, but doesn't believe in God, what does he believe in? Defying God?

Edited by betsy, 30 January 2011 - 06:55 PM.

[dre]

You should cite your sources. Most of us have already read Dawkins et al. The mantra is becoming tiresome. If they're not prepared to provide reasonable evidence that God does not exist, they should at least provide reasonable evidence to support their theories as to how the universe and life did begin. It's really not my concern whether they believe in God - what they believe doesn't change the truth. But atheists should accept the fact that their god - science - is turning on them. he is showing them that the universe did begin. It hasn't always been there. he even lets them call it the "big bang."

As for the evolutionary theories, they would've been dropped a hundred years ago had atheists not been so determined to avoid God. Just come up with a viable theory to explain how life began, never mind God. That's all that's required of atheists.

If they're not prepared to provide reasonable evidence that God does not exist, they should at least provide reasonable evidence to support their theories as to how the universe and life did begin.

Why? Evidence will be provided as and when its found just like it always has been.

As for the evolutionary theories, they would've been dropped a hundred years ago

No thats just silly, sorry. You reject evolution for no other reason than you find it incompatible with what you want to believe. This same kind of conflict has been playing itself out for hundreds of years.

Lemme tell you a little story.

In 1615 the Church, through the Spanish Inquisition, forced Galileo to denounce his findings and forced him never to teach what he had discovered. But his work went on. Nearly 20 years later in 1633, Galileo again published his findings on the observed orbits of the planets and again the Spanish Inquisition was called into action. But they refused even to look through Galileo’s telescope, as they thought the devil could create illusions with such an instrument.

Youre trying to do the same thing evolution that the church in the 1600's did when Galileo published his theories on planetary orbits. They saw it as a threat, and they not only refused to accept it, but they tried to crush it, and suppress it.

Your rejection of modern day science is just a modern day version of that same story. Youre ALSO scared to look through Galileo's telescope because youre ALSO afraid and threatened by what you might see.

But youre fighting a losing game. Eventually Christians accepted Galileos teachings... it just took a long time. And more and more Christians are accepting evolution today as well.

People are looking through that telescope Betsy! Why doncha have a little peek?

Edited by dre, 30 January 2011 - 07:49 PM.

[eyeball]

believes there's no God.

If he believes there is a God, but doesn't believe in God, what does he believe in? Defying God?

I've often said if there really is a God, She can expect an awful earful from me come Judgement Day.

I have a host of issues...take rust for example...who in their right mind would also say "let there be rust" when they created the world? Rust has got to be the clearest evidence against intelligent design there ever was.

It's like the Designer never ran things by a focus group before releasing the final product or ever tried using it Herself.

[CANADIEN]

I didn't say to prove it. I said provide evidence.

Nice hairsplitting. Won't work.

Nobody's refuting that the Big Bang did not occur.

Ypu mean refuting that Big Bang occur, right. Which is what a lot of Bible litteralists, like you, do.

But atheists see what they want to see, and avoid what they want to avoid.

And so do you.

Do you believe there was nothing before? Oh I don't expect you to fall for that.

I beliee in God, but nice try. And nice try deforming the view point of the atheists. They don't say that there was nothing, or something, beofre the Big BVang, but rather that there is no answer yet to this question - and that if there was something it was not God.

I'm not entirely clear what you're saying here but perhaps I shouldn't have been so figurative.

Why not, God inspired a wonderful methaphor known as the Genesis.

Let me put it another way. The scientific evidence that atheists rely on is no longer as supportive of the atheistic view.

Science has never be, and is not now, supportive of the deistic or atheistic vision of the Universe. It is... science.

Edited by CANADIEN, 30 January 2011 - 09:30 PM.

[Bonam]

Science is noone's God, and noone is cliaming it is. As for science turning on atheists... To believe that, one would have to believe that science and faith are opposite to each other... Interstingly enough, a misconception you share with at least a few atheists.

Science can not "turn on" anyone... it is a process, not an entity possessed of its own will.

[Shakeyhands]

They're very entertaining little comic books that are conveniently left lying around on buses and in restaurants or handed out by true-believers.
I used to collect them in my youth. My favourite was the Dungeons and Dragons one.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

What an awesome story!!! I'm never playing D&D again.... Totally don't want to hang myself!!!!!

[Moonlight Graham]

They're very entertaining little comic books that are conveniently left lying around on buses and in restaurants or handed out by true-believers.
I used to collect them in my youth. My favourite was the Dungeons and Dragons one.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

Hilarious. Some people are so effed in the head it's scary.

[WIP]

You should cite your sources. Most of us have already read Dawkins et al. The mantra is becoming tiresome. If they're not prepared to provide reasonable evidence that God does not exist, they should at least provide reasonable evidence to support their theories as to how the universe and life did begin.

Where is your theory of how the universe and life began? In case you don't know it, making a claim to us that you know WHO made the Universe and created life does not tell us HOW either the Universe or life is made.

[WIP]

Good thing that God revelaed itself,because what is written by some of His self-proclaimed defenders would be enough to make an atheist out of me ;-)

It did for me many years ago! It was these self-righteous Christians who don't practice what they preach that started me down the road to questioning the existence or the merit of this god of theirs.

Demanding people to prove the non-existence of something, or someone, or god, is illogical. Non-existence cannot be proven.

It's a waste of time talking to fundamentalists that make decisions on how the universe works based on their own intuitions, but according to the physicists that study quantum mechanics, it's impossible for a state of nothingness to exist in the first place! We live in a Universe where force properties are transmitted through space by "virtual particle pairs" that briefly pop into existence, only to come back together and annihilate each other, disappearing back into the space-time fabric......it doesn't make sense in our everyday world, but these are the laws of physics that have made possible the invention of lasers and integrated circuits that make computers possible....so that creationists can tell us that nothing exists without a cause!

Science is noone's God, and noone is cliaming it is. As for science turning on atheists... To believe that, one would have to believe that science and faith are opposite to each other... Interstingly enough, a misconception you share with at least a few atheists.

Fundamentalists don't believe in faith any more than atheists do. Otherwise they would apply faith in their understanding of God, instead of trying to use empirical evidence to prove that they don't need faith to believe in God.

So, you're right! Many fundamentalists like Albert Moehler express their respect for anti-religious atheists like Dawkins and Hitchens, while the atheist evangelists Dawkins and Harris, who want to eradicate religion, say that they have more respect for fundamentalists than for the liberal or progressive religionists that want to keep their religious faith separate from science. And both sides of fundamentalism share contempt for believers and atheists that aren't interested in joining their winner-take-all religious war!

[betsy]

Science has never be, and is not now, supportive of the deistic or atheistic vision of the Universe. It is... science.

Wrong! Open your eyes. Just the topic "REJOICE ON THIS DAY" alone had effectively negated your statement above long, long time ago.

Remove your Dawkins-tinted glasses. Dawkins is nothing more than a self-proclaimed preacher of atheism.

Edited by betsy, 31 January 2011 - 04:59 AM.