Jump to content


Photo

Curveball admits WMD lies, Colin Powell PO'd at CIA


147 replies to this topic

#16 bush_cheney2004

bush_cheney2004

    Senior Mocker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,736 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA! USA! USA!

Posted 26 February 2011 - 11:19 AM

Of course Canada would like to have seen a regime change, lots of countries would but that doesn't mean they thought invading the place was an acceptable way of doing it. That is why they wouldn't join the Coalition. The issue is the method used to justify invading a sovereign country and give it a facade of legality, not whether or not it was US policy.


Great, then we can dispense with the concern over deaths, because that was happening as a part of that policy long before the invasion. The method used included but was not totally dependent on unfounded WMD claims; there was a long shopping list of noncompliance and violations of original 1991 surrender instruments. AS I have long stated, justification was not required...all Bush needed were continuing reasons and a post 9/11 political environment. Clinton and Blair didn't even need that to attack Iraq in December 1998.
Economics trumps Virtue.
"Access to a wait list is not Access to healthcare" - Chief Justice Beverly McLauchlin

#17 Wilber

Wilber

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,589 posts
  • Location:Abbotsford BC

Posted 26 February 2011 - 11:23 AM

Great, then we can dispense with the concern over deaths, because that was happening as a part of that policy long before the invasion. The method used included but was not totally dependent on unfounded WMD claims; there was a long shopping list of noncompliance and violations of original 1991 surrender instruments. AS I have long stated, justification was not required...all Bush needed were continuing reasons and a post 9/11 political environment. Clinton and Blair didn't even need that to attack Iraq in December 1998.



Of course justification was required, why else try and sell the WMD story?
"Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC

#18 bush_cheney2004

bush_cheney2004

    Senior Mocker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,736 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA! USA! USA!

Posted 26 February 2011 - 11:27 AM

Of course justification was required, why else try and sell the WMD story?


Because Bush sought UN approval to trigger more support, which was not forthcoming. Obviously, it was desired but not essential in the end. War was authorized in October 2002....the invasion was in March 2003.


From Michael Ignatieff's Year of Living Dangerously:


I supported war as the least bad of the available options. Containment -- keeping Saddam Hussein in a box -- might have made war unnecessary, but the box had sprung a series of leaks. Hussein was evading sanctions, getting rich through illegal oil sales and, so I thought at the time, beginning to reconstitute the weapons programs that had been destroyed by United Nations inspectors. If he were acquiring weapons, he could be deterred from using them himself, but he might be able to transfer lethal technologies to undeterrable suicide bombers. Such a possibility might have been remote, but after 9/11 it seemed unwise to trifle with it. Still, I thought, force had to be a last resort. If Hussein had complied with the inspectors, I would not have supported an invasion, but the evidence, at least till March 2003, was that he was playing the same old games. Getting Hussein to stop these games depended on a credible threat of force, and the French, Russians and Chinese weren't ready to authorize military options. So that left disarmament through regime change. Where I live -- in liberal Massachusetts -- this was not a popular view.


The discovery that Hussein didn't have weapons after all surprises me, but it doesn't change my view of the essential issue. I never thought the key question was what weapons he actually possessed but rather what intentions he had. Having been to Halabja in 1992, and having talked to survivors of the chemical attack that killed 5,000 Iraqi Kurds in March 1988, I believed that while there could be doubt about Hussein's capabilities, there could be none about the malignancy of his intentions. True, there are a lot of malignant intentions loose in our world, but Hussein had actually used chemical weapons. Looking to the future, once sanctions collapsed, inspectors had been bamboozled and oil revenues began to pick up, he was certain, sooner or later, to match intentions with capabilities.




http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/14/magazine/14WWLN.html
Economics trumps Virtue.
"Access to a wait list is not Access to healthcare" - Chief Justice Beverly McLauchlin

#19 Sir Bandelot

Sir Bandelot

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4,099 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 26 February 2011 - 12:09 PM

Actually believe it was Powell who strongly wanted UN involvement, and not to go into Iraq unilaterally. Others in the admin maybe did not care so much about that. So if true then in this sense, it was his baby. I believe that Cheney was quoted as saying, if Powell should fall on his sword over this speech, Cheney would not mind that happening. This tells me there was considerable doubt and speculation over the data. But that, as B_C points out was not terribly important.

So now having thought this over, it hints that Powell et al may well have known this story to be false, but what hangs in the balance is UN involvement. They went ahead and made the case because, either way, this war was going to happen.

Edited by Sir Bandelot, 26 February 2011 - 12:11 PM.


#20 bush_cheney2004

bush_cheney2004

    Senior Mocker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,736 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA! USA! USA!

Posted 26 February 2011 - 12:51 PM

....So now having thought this over, it hints that Powell et al may well have known this story to be false, but what hangs in the balance is UN involvement. They went ahead and made the case because, either way, this war was going to happen.



Agreed...the orchestrated drama complete with modeled anthrax in a bottle was just for extra credit, the decision had been made long before. One doesn't mass 240,000 troops just to play poker in the desert. The logical mistake is to believe that UNSC action was required to "morally" or "legally" justify the invasion as PM Chretien insisted; he didn't give a damn about UNSC approval when NATO attacked Serbia (Kosovo War - 1999).

Edited by bush_cheney2004, 26 February 2011 - 12:52 PM.

Economics trumps Virtue.
"Access to a wait list is not Access to healthcare" - Chief Justice Beverly McLauchlin

#21 Wilber

Wilber

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,589 posts
  • Location:Abbotsford BC

Posted 26 February 2011 - 12:56 PM

Because Bush sought UN approval to trigger more support, which was not forthcoming. Obviously, it was desired but not essential in the end. War was authorized in October 2002....the invasion was in March 2003.




Not essential from a diplomatic point of view, which is after all just deal making between governments but certainly essential in order to gain some public support for an invasion. Point is, the administration played fast and lose with the truth in order to advance its own aims.

Hopefully this country will never find itself in a position where it invades another country because of what Ignatieff thinks might happen. After all, you are foremost invading a country and its people, not its leader.
"Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC

#22 ToadBrother

ToadBrother

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,574 posts

Posted 26 February 2011 - 01:04 PM

Agreed...the orchestrated drama complete with modeled anthrax in a bottle was just for extra credit, the decision had been made long before. One doesn't mass 240,000 troops just to play poker in the desert. The logical mistake is to believe that UNSC action was required to "morally" or "legally" justify the invasion as PM Chretien insisted; he didn't give a damn about UNSC approval when NATO attacked Serbia (Kosovo War - 1999).


There are some that feel there are no such things as righteous or unrighteous wars, only well-executed and poorly executed wars. I'm somewhat uncomfortable with that, because taking that to its logical end leads to the state of affairs we had in Europe from the Thirty Years War onward, and culminating in such delightful struggles as the Napoleonic Wars and WWI. How you divide right and wrong wars is very often subjective. A lot of people viewed toppling Hussein as simply cleaning up the mess from the First Gulf War, and quite frankly I didn't exactly shed a lot of tears at the thought of him swinging from the end of a noose. My judgment of the Iraq invasion isn't that it was right or wrong, but rather that Rumsfeld and Co., being ideologues and not soldiers, buggered it up.

People will, of course, note that the Serbian bombing campaign ultimately didn't deliver flowers in the streets of Kosovo, and some of the folks the liberators put in charge turned out to be rather criminal deviant sorts. Again, as much as we can debate the rightness or wrongness of larger powers effectively cutting out chunks of smaller nation states to make new nation states, I wasn't exactly crying tears watching the Serbs get bombed back into the stone age, it taught them a good deal of humility which they were in desperate need of.

#23 Jack Weber

Jack Weber

    Proud 4 time member of the MLW Cooler Cabal!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,861 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:movies,music,sports,history

Posted 26 February 2011 - 01:12 PM

There are some that feel there are no such things as righteous or unrighteous wars, only well-executed and poorly executed wars. I'm somewhat uncomfortable with that, because taking that to its logical end leads to the state of affairs we had in Europe from the Thirty Years War onward, and culminating in such delightful struggles as the Napoleonic Wars and WWI. How you divide right and wrong wars is very often subjective. A lot of people viewed toppling Hussein as simply cleaning up the mess from the First Gulf War, and quite frankly I didn't exactly shed a lot of tears at the thought of him swinging from the end of a noose. My judgment of the Iraq invasion isn't that it was right or wrong, but rather that Rumsfeld and Co., being ideologues and not soldiers, buggered it up.

People will, of course, note that the Serbian bombing campaign ultimately didn't deliver flowers in the streets of Kosovo, and some of the folks the liberators put in charge turned out to be rather criminal deviant sorts. Again, as much as we can debate the rightness or wrongness of larger powers effectively cutting out chunks of smaller nation states to make new nation states, I wasn't exactly crying tears watching the Serbs get bombed back into the stone age, it taught them a good deal of humility which they were in desperate need of.


Interesting...

I remember watching a program on this very subject and seeing Dick Armitage getting visibly upset on this point...

He said that he noticed that it was the ones in the Administration that had actually shouldered guns in combat (He and Powell) that has the most misgivings about the use of the flimsey evidence available,AND,it was the ones who had spent thier lives as policy ideologues that had never shouldered a gun that were the most gung ho about going tinto Iraq...

I share your views on Hussein,as well...The problem I have was therationale of regime change because either

(a) He had the capability to use weapons of mass destruction


(b ) He was an unhinged despot


(c ) All of the above

That criteria could apply to a whole host of other "leaders" on this planet that require the very same treatment...

And little,or nothing,was going to be done about them....

Edited by Jack Weber, 26 February 2011 - 01:31 PM.

The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!

#24 bush_cheney2004

bush_cheney2004

    Senior Mocker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,736 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA! USA! USA!

Posted 26 February 2011 - 01:29 PM

... How you divide right and wrong wars is very often subjective. A lot of people viewed toppling Hussein as simply cleaning up the mess from the First Gulf War, and quite frankly I didn't exactly shed a lot of tears at the thought of him swinging from the end of a noose. My judgment of the Iraq invasion isn't that it was right or wrong, but rather that Rumsfeld and Co., being ideologues and not soldiers, buggered it up.


This is a completely valid criticism and I concur....the planning and execution of the invasion had several false expectations and assumptions. Winning the peace became the sticking point and cost driver, in money and lives, and had that gone better, much of the disdain for the invasion itself would have been muted. Yours is the fairest approach possible, stripping out the "moral" considerations entirely and focusing on results, just as you suggest for any other conflict in history.
Economics trumps Virtue.
"Access to a wait list is not Access to healthcare" - Chief Justice Beverly McLauchlin

#25 GostHacked

GostHacked

    Watching you watching me.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,337 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ottawa, ON Canada

Posted 26 February 2011 - 02:33 PM

This is a completely valid criticism and I concur....the planning and execution of the invasion had several false expectations and assumptions. Winning the peace became the sticking point and cost driver, in money and lives, and had that gone better, much of the disdain for the invasion itself would have been muted. Yours is the fairest approach possible, stripping out the "moral" considerations entirely and focusing on results, just as you suggest for any other conflict in history.


It was a debacle even before Iraq was invaded. The country is in no better shape now than it was under Saddam.
Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser
ohm on soundcloud.com

#26 bloodyminded

bloodyminded

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,411 posts

Posted 26 February 2011 - 02:48 PM

It was a debacle even before Iraq was invaded. The country is in no better shape now than it was under Saddam.



In many ways worse. Religious fanaticism is way up; sectarian violence; a refugee problem of catastrophic proportions.

Many intial supporters, being decent and intelligent human beings, have changed their tune, in accord with reality.

Those who still support the travesty are intellectual and moral cowards.

Or--to be fair to the ignorant--are simply unaware of what was wrought in that country.

Edited by bloodyminded, 26 February 2011 - 02:49 PM.

As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand.
--Josh Billings

#27 ToadBrother

ToadBrother

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,574 posts

Posted 26 February 2011 - 03:11 PM

It was a debacle even before Iraq was invaded. The country is in no better shape now than it was under Saddam.


The problem, at the heart, seems to have been a small cabal of men who were torn between two entirely different extremes; on the one hand they wanted to duplicate the exporting of democracy carried out in post-war Europe and Japan, but on the other hand they also wanted to play the game conservatively. Or to put it another way, these were not big men, there were no MacArthurs or Marshalls or Claytons, big thinkers with political masters with, if not the vision, then at least the confidence and intelligence to recognize the vision.

Take General MacArthur, here was a larger than life man, just the kind of man to stare right into the eyes of a God Emperor and tell him what to do, who literally through force of will pushed through a new constitution and government, and more tellingly, an entirely new relationship between a people and that government.

You need big men, and you need deep pockets. Bush was no Roosevelt or Truman, who, whatever else you may think of them, were savvy guys who picked smart cabinets and advisers, and just as importantly gave these guys the latitude they needed. Yes, MacArthur went one step too far and Truman finally had to reign him in, but what MacArthur oversaw in Japan is probably one of the greatest state-building exercises of all time, and what was accomplished in Europe with the Marshall Plan, the transformation in particular of the Western zones of Germany from shattered, smashed and burned post-industrial zone into one of the great economic and political marvels of all time.

Guys like Rumsfeld probably had similar dreams, but they were little men, small, mean people with a audacity, but no coherency of vision, and ultimately insufficient will to impose a vision. They utterly miscalculated the cost of a post-invasion peace, of rebuilding a country brought very low by years of sanctions and a government that pissed what wealth it still had on to the sand.

I don't think Dubya and Rumsfeld should be thrown in chains into a deep dark hole for the invasion. If it had been done properly, much as the use of atomic bombs in Japan in 1945, the moral questions of the initial attack phase would have been largely academic. But it was done wrong, not just wrong but with gross incompetence by men whose ideology and perhaps greed overwhelmed that most critical faculty of leadership, and that is to listen to the experts. They were so busy slapping themselves on the back they couldn't see their own inadequacies. They remind me of the Brits during the Boer War, with a vast military arsenal at their fingertips, but little sense of what the end goal was going to be, beyond vague notions of projecting power and even vaguer ideas that somehow it would all create a more civilized, sensible world.

It wasn't that Bush and Rumsfeld and their other neo-con cronies were bad or evil men, I doubt you could find very many who reaches their high offices who could be considered good or moral in any conventional sense. But what they were were inept. If you're going to mount an invasion, you either do one of two things, you either kill or enslave everyone in the territory you seize, or you bloody well do the hard work and create new governmental systems to replace the ones you broke. You can make the new governing system friendly to your aims, and so you should, if you're going to go to all the trouble of busting the old one, but one way or the other you don't create a situation that is materially worse, and then make-believe that toppling some statues and putting on some elections is a replacement for a properly functioning government and infrastructure.

#28 Moonlight Graham

Moonlight Graham

    Whipping My Caucus

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,883 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:farting into the wind

Posted 27 February 2011 - 01:59 AM

Spare me the crocodile tears for poor dead soldiers and Iraqis, as neither were given a second thought by most Canadians when Iraq was attacked in 1991, strangled and sanctioned to death by the UN, patrolled and attacked from the air, and forced to comply with surrender instruments long before the invasion of 2003. Selective "disgust" has even less credibility than Colin Powell.


What does what "most Canadians" think have to do with my thoughts?

Yes, let's talk about the sanctions, which arguably caused even more death and suffering than the 2003 war.

The civilian casualties of the 1991 war are not even comparable, a few thousand are estimated. Never good, but the war was at least legitimate in that Iraq had invaded another country. The 2003 war was a preventive war (not "preemptive"), which is illegal under international law, as if that means anything anyways.

Listing all the "disgusts" i have would take far too long.

Now run along and continue being another tiny bolt that keeps the machine turning.
"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint." - Alexander Hamilton

"Did you know that today 27,000 children will die of preventable diseases such as diarrhea, measles, and malnutrition? That's the same as if an airplane full of children crashed every 16 minutes, killing everyone onboard." - Aug. 2005 edition of 'Warcry', official magazine of the Salvation Army

#29 Moonlight Graham

Moonlight Graham

    Whipping My Caucus

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,883 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:farting into the wind

Posted 27 February 2011 - 02:36 AM

Powell writes that he had reservations about making the speech at the time. Why? He was reluctant to do it, but the duty fell upon him. Lies or no, he did his "job". And he knew it, and now he carries the shame of it.


Exactly. He was being "the good soldier". A "good" military man like Powell is trained to take orders from his commanding officers, despite any personal or moral objections. Woops!

Bush either knew, or didn't know. If he knew, our judgement of it is obvious. If not, then he and the whole of the intelligence apparatus can be judged as either ignorant, incompetent or criminal.
Ignorant- they refused to listen to other intelligence agencies about the reliability of this "curveball".
Incompetent- they did not check the validity of the information, like fools they trusted illegitimate sources.
Criminal- they didn't care about the real truth, seeking only to pursue their aggressive military agenda.


Whether Bush himself I knew or not, who knows. The man was a puppet of Cheney and Rumsfeld, and is such a simplistic moron i have doubts he even knew to ask the right questions. Just read the teleprompter, George.

What is certain is that Cheney and Rumsfeld knew. Yellowcake claims, Curveball claims. The Bush admin knew these were garbage, but used them to sell the war. Former CIA officers are on record in video interviews claiming that Cheney would come down to the CIA HQ (which they said VP's NEVER do unless for ceremonial purposes) while the National Intelligence Estimate was being constructed and put intimidating pressure on them to find more "evidence" etc. "Many members of the CIA believed that the Vice President himself was determined to control the content of the NIE". link (Watch chapter 4, or read the extended former CIA interviews)

Using truth or lies was meaningless, the only thing that mattered to the admin was the effectiveness it had in convincing the public, the rest of the US gov, and other governments to the "justness" of an invasion.
"Why has government been instituted at all? Because the passions of men will not conform to the dictates of reason and justice, without constraint." - Alexander Hamilton

"Did you know that today 27,000 children will die of preventable diseases such as diarrhea, measles, and malnutrition? That's the same as if an airplane full of children crashed every 16 minutes, killing everyone onboard." - Aug. 2005 edition of 'Warcry', official magazine of the Salvation Army

#30 bloodyminded

bloodyminded

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,411 posts

Posted 27 February 2011 - 03:21 AM

Guys like Rumsfeld probably had similar dreams, but they were little men, small, mean people with a audacity, but no coherency of vision, and ultimately insufficient will to impose a vision. They utterly miscalculated the cost of a post-invasion peace, of rebuilding a country brought very low by years of sanctions and a government that pissed what wealth it still had on to the sand.



I agree. Their dreams, if we can call them that, were of "democracy," as if the word is sufficient. (Though I don't think even naive ideals were the sole reason, nor even the primary one.) And not only did they miscalculate, as you say (perhaps the single point that everyone, supporters and not, can agree upon), but they utterly lacked vision, and ultimately they lacked true respect for the democratic ideals they claimed to be exporting. They chose, imperial-style, with "viceroy" Bremer at the helm, to alter Iraqi law and constitution along ostensibly free-market principles. They abolished the Western-style, mildly socialist ideals--in a way that would be unacceptable to, oh, say, Americans themselves. Saddam's monstrous police state and murderousness were quite unrelated to the health and education programs, the best in the region after Israel's (pre-sanctions, anyway). Women were legally equal to men, another aspect currently being flushed down the toilet. And I don't think the administration gave a good goddamn about any of this, being, at heart, simpletons..including the intellectuals, like Paul Wolfowitz.


It wasn't that Bush and Rumsfeld and their other neo-con cronies were bad or evil men



No, it doesn't generally work that way.


,

You can make the new governing system friendly to your aims, and so you should, if you're going to go to all the trouble of busting the old one



But this takes careful navigation (which seems to be part of your point anyway). If one is "exporting democracy," then shutting the Iraqi people out of discussions, committing to torture, supporting even worse tortures (and murders) and imposing a sectarianism in a place where sectarianism is plainly a simmering danger anyway...this is where "friendly to your aims" becomes unreasonable.

More to the point, if you're genuine about "exporting democracy," then by definition your own aims are not of utmost importance. By definition. We can't have it both ways, no matter how much we might adore the glories of American empire.


As for President Bush...he now says that "the worst" part of his Presidency was hearing Kanye West remark that Bush was a racist!

Really, George? That's the worst thing that happened?

Bush and Rumsfeld and Cheney remain as blind as they ever were.

Edited by bloodyminded, 27 February 2011 - 03:24 AM.

As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand.
--Josh Billings



Reply to this topic