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#46 Michael Hardner

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 09:10 AM

The global cooperation that's needed is a joint pushback against the power of the large multinational corporations that control many governments and set global trade and economic policies. It's not as if civilization always existed with continual economic growth.


Over the long term, though, there has been continual growth. I'm wondering if you're confusing growth with consumption here.

For example - I'm a neolithic farmer in the fertile crescent 20,000 BCE. ( I'm not, actually, but this is an example. ) I start using a cart with my ox, so that allows me to bring more water from a canal to irrigate my farm, and increase my crop yields. That's economic growth from technology and improved processes.

One of the biggest booms for the economy was a centralized system of trade. That wasn't so much a new technology as it was a new social practice that greatly reduced waste while improving the economy.

As for the six points below, I could find six points of optimism too. For example, new technology is allowing America (which leads the consumer world) to consume less oil.

#47 WIP

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 11:50 AM

Here's an interesting study out today which puts the crisis of human over-consumption into focus:
Warning: Human's Devouring 40% of All Land and Sea Life

Humans are devouring 40 percent of the life that Earth's land produces and "take a similar proportion of what the coastal seas produce. For one midsized creature that collectively weighs just half a percent of the animal mass on Earth, that is a staggering proportion. It redefines 'dominion.' We dominate."

As the UN estimates Earth's human population will exceed 9 billion people by mid-century, Safina sees trouble ahead sustaining a growth equivalent to "two more Chinas." He explains, "We'd still probably have to expand agriculture onto new land, and that means using more water" when water supplies are drying up. "Since all growth depends on what plants make using sunlight, continuous growth of the human enterprise for more than a few decades may not be possible."

" By mid-century it would take about two planet Earths to provide enough to meet projected demand (add another half-Earth if everyone wants to live like Americans.") While Americans comprise just five per cent of the world's population, they use roughly 30 percent of the world's nonrenewable energy and minerals.

Safina warns, "We're pumping freshwater faster than rain falls, catching fish faster than they spawn. Roughly 40 percent of tropical coral reefs are rapidly deteriorating; none are considered safe. Forests are shrinking by about an acre per second."

Compared to the era of America's founding, ozone is thinner and carbon dioxide denser by a third; synthetic fertilizers have doubled the global nitrogen flow to living systems, washing down rivers and, since the 1970s, "creating hundreds of oxygen-starved seafloor 'dead zones.'"

" We've learned that we can eliminate the most abundant herds and birds, and the fishes of even the deepest haunts; take groundwater out faster than it goes in; change the composition of the atmosphere and the chemistry of the ocean," Safina writes.

" As a new force of nature, humans are changing the world at rates and scales previously matched mainly by geological and cosmic forces like volcanoes, ice-age cycles, and comet strikes. That's why everything from aardvarks to zooplankton are feeling their world shifting. As are many people, who don't always know why."

As humanity pushes the planet toward destruction, it is incredible that half of all the taxes collected from the American people---who are principal players in this rush---are used for warfare rather than to rebuild and rejuvenate the planet they are ravaging


Okay, now are some of you who still think the Earth is a giant candy store getting the picture? It's not mentioned here, but other studies claim that humans now represent the largest animal biomass on the planet. This is a big part of the reason why more and more plant and animal species are being driven to extinction. There are too many people, consuming resources exponentially for faint hopes and wishful thinking that some new-fangled technology will fix everything. Continued ignorance will lead to a peak mass extinction that likely includes our descendents....and that's reality, not alarmist rhetoric!

I'm quitting for good this time.  I can't stand most of the people who post here.  Most of what passes for debate is pointless bullshit and retreaded propaganda. And I'm fed up with wasting time trying regain use of the quote feature. Time to move on to somewhere that will match my interests and concerns.


#48 TimG

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 11:57 AM

Okay, now are some of you who still think the Earth is a giant candy store getting the picture? It's not mentioned here, but other studies claim that humans now represent the largest animal biomass on the planet.

You are missing the point. Technology is the only solution to deal with excess population if we don't want mass starvation. This means more fertilizer and GMOs and fossil fuels.

#49 Michael Hardner

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 12:02 PM

Your article had a spelling error in the headline, which made me pause to wonder about the quality of the information.

Again, the tone is full-on alarm bells with no substantiating links and few sources for the information. This person may have received fellowships, but it doesn't mean that I have to accept what he says without sourcing.

#50 Sir Bandelot

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 03:45 PM

For all things there is a natural cycle. That is, the cycle of creation and destruction. And I feel, despite the good intentions of people like WIP to try and warn us and get people to change, we are "hell-bent" on our own destruction because of several irreconcilable factors mainly to do with human nature, greed, shortsightedness and political/ ideological fanaticism. Among other things. But I have a certain faith in the human being, that people will come to know the difference between right and wrong, if not by being taught then by example of pain and suffering. The human being will survive, that is what we are good at. But this world about a come to an end

Edited by Sir Bandelot, 25 April 2011 - 03:46 PM.


#51 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 05:36 PM


Economics trumps Virtue.
"Access to a wait list is not Access to healthcare" - Chief Justice Beverly McLauchlin

#52 WIP

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 03:27 AM

For all things there is a natural cycle. That is, the cycle of creation and destruction. And I feel, despite the good intentions of people like WIP to try and warn us and get people to change, we are "hell-bent" on our own destruction because of several irreconcilable factors mainly to do with human nature, greed, shortsightedness and political/ ideological fanaticism. Among other things. But I have a certain faith in the human being, that people will come to know the difference between right and wrong, if not by being taught then by example of pain and suffering. The human being will survive, that is what we are good at. But this world about a come to an end

There is a natural instinct in every animal, to consume the limits of its natural environment. In nature, this is usually kept in check through disease and predation, but when animals swim to a new island with no predators, they will likely consume everything until they run out of food and mass starvation occurs. The blunt, disturbing messages coming to us from several different areas of environmental research are that the human animal is...so far...acting exactly like a small group of deer who've just swam across a lake to a new island, for example. The Earth is now our island, since we are a global civilization, and with all of our modern technology, we are free of the predator/prey cycle of nature. I'm not seeing a lot of encouraging signs that the dangers are being taken seriously by enough people to prevent a global catastrophe.

I'm quitting for good this time.  I can't stand most of the people who post here.  Most of what passes for debate is pointless bullshit and retreaded propaganda. And I'm fed up with wasting time trying regain use of the quote feature. Time to move on to somewhere that will match my interests and concerns.


#53 Michael Hardner

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 05:23 AM

There is a natural instinct in every animal, to consume the limits of its natural environment. In nature, this is usually kept in check through disease and predation, but when animals swim to a new island with no predators, they will likely consume everything until they run out of food and mass starvation occurs. The blunt, disturbing messages coming to us from several different areas of environmental research are that the human animal is...so far...acting exactly like a small group of deer who've just swam across a lake to a new island, for example. The Earth is now our island, since we are a global civilization, and with all of our modern technology, we are free of the predator/prey cycle of nature. I'm not seeing a lot of encouraging signs that the dangers are being taken seriously by enough people to prevent a global catastrophe.


It's hard to discern, though, because there are always panic mongers who tell us that we're doomed. I have to think that obvious risks will gradually raise more alarms than the odd alarmist blog.

#54 WIP

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 12:13 PM

It's hard to discern, though, because there are always panic mongers who tell us that we're doomed. I have to think that obvious risks will gradually raise more alarms than the odd alarmist blog.

I have laid out many reasons for alarm. We have entered a whole new era where human population is at unprecedented and unsustainable levels, Arctic sea ice has declined 40% since those Apollo 8 pictures were taken in 1968, and we still have thousands of nuclear warheads kicking around at a time when conflict and warfare is on the increase....but you still think a little tinkering around the edges with tax rates will solve all of our problems.

I'm quitting for good this time.  I can't stand most of the people who post here.  Most of what passes for debate is pointless bullshit and retreaded propaganda. And I'm fed up with wasting time trying regain use of the quote feature. Time to move on to somewhere that will match my interests and concerns.


#55 Bonam

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 02:03 PM

There is a natural instinct in every animal, to consume the limits of its natural environment. In nature, this is usually kept in check through disease and predation, but when animals swim to a new island with no predators, they will likely consume everything until they run out of food and mass starvation occurs. The blunt, disturbing messages coming to us from several different areas of environmental research are that the human animal is...so far...acting exactly like a small group of deer who've just swam across a lake to a new island, for example. The Earth is now our island, since we are a global civilization, and with all of our modern technology, we are free of the predator/prey cycle of nature. I'm not seeing a lot of encouraging signs that the dangers are being taken seriously by enough people to prevent a global catastrophe.


Humans are their own predators. I disagree with your premise that we are outgrowing our environment's carrying capacity. As I've stated before, the use of ever more advanced technology allows us to increase the environment's carrying capacity for humans. However, if we ever really did come to a resource limit, as you predict, the human self-predation mechanism would kick into effect. Humans are about the only species that is known to slaughter vast numbers of its own kind, and is unique in this way.

I do support genocide


#56 Michael Hardner

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 02:59 PM

I have laid out many reasons for alarm. We have entered a whole new era where human population is at unprecedented and unsustainable levels, Arctic sea ice has declined 40% since those Apollo 8 pictures were taken in 1968, and we still have thousands of nuclear warheads kicking around at a time when conflict and warfare is on the increase....but you still think a little tinkering around the edges with tax rates will solve all of our problems.


You need to have a debate between knowledgeable people in order to validate these points.

I'm not saying that changing tax rates will fix the problem, but that is at least a realistic (if measured) approach to addressing the problems you're talking about.

#57 TimG

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 03:10 PM

We have entered a whole new era where human population is at unprecedented and unsustainable levels

People have been saying that for centuries. After a while you figure out that the doom sayers are over stating their case.

Arctic sea ice has declined 40% since those Apollo 8 pictures were taken in 1968

So what? There is no compelling evidence that a warmer artic will be, on balance, bad for humanity.

and we still have thousands of nuclear warheads kicking around at a time when conflict and warfare is on the increase.

On the increase? More of the world is at peace today than at any time in the past. The only thing that is changed is any conflict anywhere in the world gets broadcast and amplified.

#58 GostHacked

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 01:12 PM

You are missing the point. Technology is the only solution to deal with excess population if we don't want mass starvation. This means more fertilizer and GMOs and fossil fuels.


There are technical solutions to mass population. I just need to build a bigger gun.
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#59 GostHacked

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 01:19 PM

People have been saying that for centuries. After a while you figure out that the doom sayers are over stating their case.


The population boom of the last century surpass everything that came before it put together. So those people who saw this centuries ago understood something about exponential. Hell I even understood that much as a kid. More people, using more resources, meaning less resources to go around, meaning we will eventually be fighting each other for what little resources remain .... It's not rocket science.

On the increase? More of the world is at peace today than at any time in the past. The only thing that is changed is any conflict anywhere in the world gets broadcast and amplified.


And I thought I smoked a lot of dope. What fantasy land are you living in?
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#60 Michael Hardner

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 01:57 PM

The population boom of the last century surpass everything that came before it put together. So those people who saw this centuries ago understood something about exponential. Hell I even understood that much as a kid. More people, using more resources, meaning less resources to go around, meaning we will eventually be fighting each other for what little resources remain .... It's not rocket science.


We're now 50 years post-birth control and its starting to get introduced to the third world. You can look forward to slowing population growth.



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