32 replies to this topic

[August1991]

Every so often, I read a column of such utter nonsense that it's an invitation to respond. In this case, the response is more than worthy because it raises a little known fact (that the column entirely missed).

Today, I’m going to play Devil’s Advocate.

I’m going to propose what I think an honest system of pricing carbon dioxide emissions would look like.

This means it won’t look anything like what Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff, NDP Leader Jack Layton or the Bloc’s Gilles Duceppe have proposed in this election.
....

My carbon tax wouldn’t exempt anyone. It would be a sales tax added to the cost of virtually all goods and services, similar to the Harmonized Sales Tax, with one condition.

Every penny raised, every year, would be returned to Canadians through income tax cuts, or cash rebates to low-income earners who pay little or no income tax.

Lorrie Goldstein

If Goldstein's proposal is intended to deal with CO2 emissions, it is stupefyingly dumb because it would just mean imposing a tax on all forms of consumption - regardless of CO2 content. We have that now through the GST or TFSA/RRSP.

So in effect, Goldstein is just urging the government to rescind Harper's GST cut. Anyway...

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Nevertheless, Goldstein raises a good question: what would a carbon tax look like?

Well, we have one now. All gasoline sold in Canada has a 10 cent per litre federal excise tax. Burning a litre of gasoline puts about 2.4 kg of CO2 into the atmosphere. Burning 400 litres of gasoline would put about one metric tonne of CO2 into the atmosphere, and you'd also be paying about $40 in the federal excise tax. In Europe now, the current price of one unit of CO2 emission (equal to one metric tonne) is about 20 euros or about $30 Cdn.

So in effect, we have now in Canada a carbon tax at least on gasoline. I would suggest that the federal government change the name of the "federal excise tax" to the "federal carbon tax".

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What I find interesting is that jet fuel (kerosene) sold for international travel is generally not taxed at all. It seems to me that if international organizations were serious about reducing CO2 emissions, they would start with taxing jet fuel.

Edited by August1991, 25 April 2011 - 08:06 PM.

[mikedavid00]

I would suggest that the federal government change the name of the "federal excise tax" to the "federal carbon tax".

Great idea.

August1991 has grown over the years and is someone 'in the know' of how the country operates. That is a very rare achievement for most Canadians.

Edited by mikedavid00, 25 April 2011 - 08:45 PM.

[Roger Steele]

Only someone who has spent their entire life in one of our major cities would compare us to Europe and that is only because they do not know any better.

As Canadians we are in a very unique and taxing (pun intended) situation. We live in one of the largest countries in the world with likely the lowest population per 100 square kilometers of most countries in the world. Our resources are spread out across this vast land and because of this some of our population must also be spread out. We are located at a Latitude that causes most of us to endure many months of cold harsh weather. This results in our transportation systems leaving a very large carbon footprint. Because we are so spread out and sparsely populated, rapid transit is not economical for 99% of the country. Smaller more densely populated European countries have the opportunity to develop high speed rail systems to economically transport their populace to work, to shop, to visit and vacation leaving a very small carbon impact. That would only work for Canada in a few of our larger cities, while the other 99%+ of our country is relegated to the humble automobile. While hybrids and Electric vehicles will work for those in the major cities, again the rest of Canada is 100 - 200km away from essential services and for the foreseeable future must rely on old fashioned automobiles to get around. I have been ill for over 5 years and I would love to be able to hop on a high speed train and shuttle off to the nearest city to visit my Doctors, but instead I must endure a 2 1/2 hour drive in the dead of our Canadian winter to visit the specialists, as do Canadians all across this great land.

Yes the excise tax could be called a Carbon Tax but we will be saddled with it until someone invents a vehicle that can traverse long distances in -30 to -40 C weather without having to stop to plug in every 90 minutes, or a fuel source that can keep us warm while we travel across this great country without producing CO2.

[PIK]

Only someone who has spent their entire life in one of our major cities would compare us to Europe and that is only because they do not know any better.

As Canadians we are in a very unique and taxing (pun intended) situation. We live in one of the largest countries in the world with likely the lowest population per 100 square kilometers of most countries in the world. Our resources are spread out across this vast land and because of this some of our population must also be spread out. We are located at a Latitude that causes most of us to endure many months of cold harsh weather. This results in our transportation systems leaving a very large carbon footprint. Because we are so spread out and sparsely populated, rapid transit is not economical for 99% of the country. Smaller more densely populated European countries have the opportunity to develop high speed rail systems to economically transport their populace to work, to shop, to visit and vacation leaving a very small carbon impact. That would only work for Canada in a few of our larger cities, while the other 99%+ of our country is relegated to the humble automobile. While hybrids and Electric vehicles will work for those in the major cities, again the rest of Canada is 100 - 200km away from essential services and for the foreseeable future must rely on old fashioned automobiles to get around. I have been ill for over 5 years and I would love to be able to hop on a high speed train and shuttle off to the nearest city to visit my Doctors, but instead I must endure a 2 1/2 hour drive in the dead of our Canadian winter to visit the specialists, as do Canadians all across this great land.

Yes the excise tax could be called a Carbon Tax but we will be saddled with it until someone invents a vehicle that can traverse long distances in -30 to -40 C weather without having to stop to plug in every 90 minutes, or a fuel source that can keep us warm while we travel across this great country without producing CO2.

Very good post.

[RNG]

And another hard reality is that even with our evil oilsands going full blast, Canada contributes 2% of the world's CO2. Admittedly we are less than 2% of the world's population but see above.

[blueblood]

Only someone who has spent their entire life in one of our major cities would compare us to Europe and that is only because they do not know any better.

As Canadians we are in a very unique and taxing (pun intended) situation. We live in one of the largest countries in the world with likely the lowest population per 100 square kilometers of most countries in the world. Our resources are spread out across this vast land and because of this some of our population must also be spread out. We are located at a Latitude that causes most of us to endure many months of cold harsh weather. This results in our transportation systems leaving a very large carbon footprint. Because we are so spread out and sparsely populated, rapid transit is not economical for 99% of the country. Smaller more densely populated European countries have the opportunity to develop high speed rail systems to economically transport their populace to work, to shop, to visit and vacation leaving a very small carbon impact. That would only work for Canada in a few of our larger cities, while the other 99%+ of our country is relegated to the humble automobile. While hybrids and Electric vehicles will work for those in the major cities, again the rest of Canada is 100 - 200km away from essential services and for the foreseeable future must rely on old fashioned automobiles to get around. I have been ill for over 5 years and I would love to be able to hop on a high speed train and shuttle off to the nearest city to visit my Doctors, but instead I must endure a 2 1/2 hour drive in the dead of our Canadian winter to visit the specialists, as do Canadians all across this great land.

Yes the excise tax could be called a Carbon Tax but we will be saddled with it until someone invents a vehicle that can traverse long distances in -30 to -40 C weather without having to stop to plug in every 90 minutes, or a fuel source that can keep us warm while we travel across this great country without producing CO2.

You forgot to mention our best friend time. Rapid transit works on their time not mine, which means people have to adjust their schedule to accomodate mass transit. Who knows how much that costs, then we have transfers on top of it. The only place where mass transit works is in aviation because of the distance vs. Time factor. There's a reason why so many people own cars, they can get around quickly on their own time, which is something mass transit can't do.

[RNG]

You forgot to mention our best friend time. Rapid transit works on their time not mine, which means people have to adjust their schedule to accomodate mass transit. Who knows how much that costs, then we have transfers on top of it. The only place where mass transit works is in aviation because of the distance vs. Time factor. There's a reason why so many people own cars, they can get around quickly on their own time, which is something mass transit can't do.

In London, and much of the UK, as well as much of Europe, mass transit is great. Given their population densities, the service is great because the demand is great. It's all a matter of population density, as RS said.

[August1991]

Yes the excise tax could be called a Carbon Tax but we will be saddled with it until someone invents a vehicle that can traverse long distances in -30 to -40 C weather without having to stop to plug in every 90 minutes, or a fuel source that can keep us warm while we travel across this great country without producing CO2.

Roger, I think you misunderstand my OP.

Canada has in effect a carbon tax now, at least on gasoline. The current federal excise tax amounts to the equivalent of a tax on CO2 emissions if we use the price of a carbon unit in the European market as a measure.

IOW, the federal excise tax specifically targets CO2 emissions from gasoline usage. People are inclined to buy less gasoline and spend their money on other goods/services that produce less CO2. For example, people are encouraged to spend their money on rapid transit rather than fill their car with gas.

Moreover, this federal excise tax is in addition to any specific provincial or municipal gasoline taxes as well as the GST/PST/HST applied to all purchases.

For all intents, the federal excise tax on gasoline is a federal carbon tax and I see nothing dishonest in renaming the tax. If anything, the tax is a little too high.

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There are other sources of CO2 emissions that could be taxed. I mentioned for example jet fuel for international travel. To my knowledge, no country imposes a tax on this source of CO2 emissions. International organizations are precisely the place to negotiate such a tax.

Edited by August1991, 27 April 2011 - 07:07 AM.

[eyeball]

Yes the excise tax could be called a Carbon Tax but we will be saddled with it until someone invents a vehicle that can traverse long distances in -30 to -40 C weather without having to stop to plug in every 90 minutes, or a fuel source that can keep us warm while we travel across this great country without producing CO2.

Wouldn't they just go back to calling it an excise tax?

[Ang]

Great point brought up with regards to population density re: clean mass transit in Europe. So how do we combat the population density issue? I think Canada's geography creates a few problems that people just overlook eg: "Canada's cell phone services cost too much."

[Bonam]

Great point brought up with regards to population density re: clean mass transit in Europe. So how do we combat the population density issue?

Same way as humans have always done: have kids

[sk1d]

You guys do realize that 2/3 of Canada, that's 20,000,000 people, live in the 1,100 km between Windsor and Quebec City right?

[cybercoma]

Same way as humans have always done: have kids

Federal subsidy for people to have more sex?

[Bonam]

Federal subsidy for people to have more sex?

I'll vote for it.

[cybercoma]

I'm guessing the candidate with the 70's porn-stache is most likely to support such legislation. Just sayin...