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#1 betsy

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:08 AM

The Bible is the best-selling book of all time. It is also the most scrutinized book that’s ever written. Scrutiny comes not only from Christians cementing their faith or skeptics seeking truth, but most intense scrutiny comes from those with hostile intentions.

This thread is created with the purpose of showing skeptics that the Bible is indeed The Word of God, to promote an open-minded interest in reading and study of the Bible, and to help strengthen the Christian faith in the face of relentless hostility and attacks.

But first, here is a brief description of the Bible.


Excerpt from the transcript of “ Word Of God” as delivered by Charles Price:

Our English word, Bible, actually comes from the plural word, “Biblos,” meaning library. It’s made up of sixty-six books. It was written by more than forty authors over a period of at least one thousand, five hundred years in three completely different languages: Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

First of all, the Bible is written by over forty authors from every walk of life. There are kings writing in this book. There are military leaders, and there are peasants, there are philosophers, there are fishermen, there are tax collectors, there are poets, there are musicians, there’s a harpist, and a drummer. A drummer wrote two psalms. His name was Asaph. There are scholars who write this book, there are shepherds who write this book, and there was a cowman who wrote part of this book. His job was looking after cattle. This has come from a huge variety of human sources.

It was written over a period of at least fifteen hundred years. That means if the last book was being written now, the first book would have been written in the closing days of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire finally was disbanded in 476 A.D. That’s just over fifteen hundred years ago. That’s a huge time span. During that fifteen hundred years, cultures changed, outlooks changed.

It was written in three completely different languages: Hebrew and Greek are the primary languages, but parts of the Old Testament are written in Aramaic, which also would have been the mother tongue of Jesus, so the original speaking of Jesus would have been in Aramaic, although written in Greek, which had become the international language.

It was written in numerous styles; in fact, almost every literary style you’ll probably find in this book. There’s history, there’s poetry, there are songs, there is law, there is biography, there is autobiography, there is prophecy, there is parable, there is allegory, and probably other things.

It was written on three continents in a day when people didn’t travel very much: Asia, Europe, and a little bit of it was written in Africa, Jeremiah down in Egypt.
It was written in scores of situations. Moses wrote part of it in the wilderness. Jeremiah and Paul both wrote in prison. David wrote some of his psalms up on the hillside; Solomon in his luxurious palace;…

The Bible’s full of controversial issues, and yet despite the breadth of authors, the huge period of time over which it was written, there is an amazing unity and harmony that runs all the way through. Because in spite of its diversity, the Bible presents one single, unfolding story. It’s the story of creation, the fall of man, the redemption of man, and the future restoration back to what God intended everything to be. To quote John Milton, “Genesis is about paradise lost, and Revelation about paradise regained.” And everything in between, including the need, the means, and the results of being restored to what God intended. In the early part of Genesis, the gate to the tree of life is closed, and in the end of Revelation, the gate to the tree of life is opened again. One continuous story.
Now if you tried to put that together humanly with a very smart editor, though no editor survives fifteen hundred years, you wouldn’t get this kind of unity and harmony. As literature, it’s been the best selling book in history. There may have been one or two occasions where another book, in a particular year, may have outsold the Bible. Apparently, Mao Tse Tung’s “Red Book” did one year. But throughout history, it’s been the best selling book.

And, of course, the story of the Bible has not been without strong opposition. It’s been declared illegal literature in some parts of the world ever since the beginning of the fourth century when, in the year 303 A.D., the Roman Emperor, Diocletian, issued an edict ordering the destruction of Christian churches and the burning of all Scriptures. And ever since then there’s never been a place in the world where the Bible has not been illegal literature. Interestingly, 25 years after Diocletian had issued that, the Emperor Constantine was converted to Christ, and he issued an edict ordering that 50 copies of the Bible should be prepared at the government’s expense. Now you say 50 isn’t very many, but remember that’s writing them by hand, word by word.
And when they wrote it by hand, they wrote it with incredible accuracy. One of the things they did – and this was just one of the checks – they would count how many letters were in each book of the Bible, identified the middle letter, and when the scribe had finished writing this particular book, they would count the letters; and if it was one letter too many or one or two short, they would throw it away, even though they’d spent hours and hours and hours writing it by hand. They’d then identify the middle letter, and if the middle letter was not the correct letter, they would throw it away. And then when the whole Bible was done, they would count every letter in the entire Bible and do the same thing. Find the middle letter again, and if it was wrong, discard the whole manuscript. Incredible! But how grateful you and I should be for the accuracy with which Scriptures have come to us as a result of that.
But it’s ironic, isn’t it, that 25 years after Diocletian ordered the destruction of all Scripture, Constantine, who became Emperor, was converted, and he ordered the government should pay for the preparing of copies of the Scripture.
In the 18th century, the Frenchman Voltaire, he was a writer and crusader against tyranny and bigotry, he predicted that in 100 years time, Christianity would be swept from existence and would pass into history. That was in the 18th century. Do you know in 50 years, Voltaire had been swept into history, and the Geneva Bible Society used his printing press to print thousands of Bibles, and they used his house to store them in before they distributed them.”

http://www.livingtruth.ca/Res-TRAN.asp


There is no doubt that Science does not contradict, but rather supports the Bible.
Several statements from The Bible – a lot of them describing or attributing to creation – have become scientific facts.

I. myself am learning as I go along researching about these.

As I’ve stated elsewhere in this forum the first 10 words of Genesis speak of time, space and matter – actually the universe is scientifically expressed in this terms: time, space, matter, power and motion.

Genesis 1(New International Version)
The Beginning
1 In the beginning (time) God created (power)the heavens (space) and the earth (matter). 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering (motion) over the waters.


Coincidence, a skeptic might say. Is it?

Edited by betsy, 14 May 2011 - 06:52 AM.


#2 betsy

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:09 AM

FACT: Nothing holds up Earth. It is affected by gravity.


Job 26:7 (New International Version)

7 He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing.



Modern Science In An Ancient
by Henry Morris, Ph.D.

The book of Job is one of the oldest books in the world, yet it contains numerous references to natural systems and phenomena, some involving facts of science not discovered by scientists until recent centuries, yet recorded in Job almost 4000 years ago.

A good example is in 26:7. “He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.”
While ancient mythologies may imagine the earth to be carried on the shoulders of Atlas or on the back of a giant turtle, Job correctly noted that it is suspended in space. The force of “gravity” is still not understood, and it is quite reasonable to believe that God Himself holds it in the assigned place in His creation.

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=20124

#3 betsy

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:10 AM

FACT: The earth is round.

Isaiah 40:22 (New International Version)

22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.




FACT: There is an incalculable number of stars.

Jeremiah 33:22 (New International Version)
22 I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars in the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.’”


#4 BubberMiley

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:37 AM

That's nothing compared to his 1935 sequel, the Urantia Book (which wasn't a best-seller at all--often a problem with sequels). That one predicted the discovery of DNA and dark matter and a bunch of other stuff I'm also not that interested in.
http://beamsdoorway....tia/science.htm

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#5 betsy

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:50 AM

That's nothing compared to his 1935 sequel, the Urantia Book (which wasn't a best-seller at all--often a problem with sequels). That one predicted the discovery of DNA and dark matter and a bunch of other stuff I'm also not that interested in.
http://beamsdoorway.bizland.com/urantia/science.htm


The Urantia Book apparently originated between 1924 and 1955, according to Wiki.

It's non-comparable at all with the Biblical facts that were clearly stated at least a thousand years ago - and have been supported by science.

Edited by betsy, 14 May 2011 - 06:51 AM.


#6 betsy

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 07:06 AM

FACT: Mountains and trenches in the deep blue sea.


Jonah 2:3-6 (New International version)

3 You hurled me into the depths,
into the very heart of the seas,
and the currents swirled about me;
all your waves and breakers
swept over me.
4 I said, ‘I have been banished
from your sight;
yet I will look again
toward your holy temple.’
5 The engulfing waters threatened me,
the deep surrounded me;
seaweed was wrapped around my head.
6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.



Towering mountains and deep trenches in the depths of the oceans were discovered in the last century.

Edited by betsy, 14 May 2011 - 07:07 AM.


#7 betsy

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 08:25 AM

FACT: Noah’s Ark and Ship Building

In Genesis 6, God gave Noah the dimensions of the ark he was to build.

In 1609 at Hoorn, in Holland, the Netherlandish Mennonite, P. Jansen, produced a vessel after the pattern of the ark, only smaller, whereby he proved it was well adapted for floating, and would carry a cargo greater by one-third than any other form of like cubical content" (J.P. Lange, A Commentary). It revolutionized shipbuilding. By 1900 every large vessel on the high seas was definitely inclined toward the proportions of Noah's ark (as verified by "Lloyd's Register of Shipping," The World Almanac). Later, ships were built longer for speed, a matter of no concern to Noah.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+8&version=AMP

Edited by betsy, 14 May 2011 - 08:26 AM.


#8 BubberMiley

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 08:51 AM

It's non-comparable at all with the Biblical facts that were clearly stated at least a thousand years ago - and have been supported by science.

That's true. It's much more compelling. Its science was much more "clearly stated" than anything in the bible. If it was referring to the fact that the earth is a sphere when it referred to the "circle", why did they say "circle" and not "sphere"? They're two different things, you know.

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#9 betsy

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 09:26 AM

That's true. It's much more compelling. Its science was much more "clearly stated" than anything in the bible. If it was referring to the fact that the earth is a sphere when it referred to the "circle", why did they say "circle" and not "sphere"? They're two different things, you know.


Apparently the use of "circle" is indeed a controversial statement. One of the views presented is this:

Hebrew Text
The phrase of Isaiah 40:22, "the circle of the earth" is very controversial. There are five main views of this phrase. The first interpretation says that the word "circle" means "sphere" indicating that the earth is a sphere. This view seems most unlikely since we have all ready seen that the Hebrew word gh means "circle," and it seems very remote that it means "sphere" because of the context, and there is a better Hebrew word for "sphere," rwd. In Isaiah 22:18 the word rwd is translated "ball." If the LXX translators understood gh as "sphere," they would have used the Greek word sfairoeides. Plugging the meaning of "sphere" into every passage that gh occurs will result in awkward interpretations.
The second interpretation is that the earth is a round flat disk. Although the ancient world thought the earth was round and flat, this phrase seems to refer to the shape the vaulted heavens above the earth from which the inhabitants look like grasshoppers.

The third view, which is set forth by Seybold, is that "circle" refers to the ring of the ocean that surrounds the earth. This is mainly based on the supposed meaning of the word guros used in the LXX for gwj.

The fourth interpretation is that "circle" refers to the vault like sky over the earth. This seems to be partly right as well as the next view where "circle" refers to the horizon. It may be best to combine theses two views so that "circle" refers to the circle of the horizon that arches up over the earth. From the top of this dome God looks down to see the inhabitants on earth as small as grasshoppers. In the later part of this same verse (Isa.40:22) the heavens are described like a curtain and a tent. There seems to be a descriptive parallelism of the heavens in this poetic verse.

Stadelmann (1970, 42) states that gwj refers to the horizon which was the boundary between earth and heaven, and indicates how the heavenly dome was linked with the earth. In Job 26:10 gwj is the boundary between light and darkness. It is the circular line that separates the light of heaven from the darkness under the ocean and earth. In the ancient world the horizon prevented the earth from being flooded by primeval waters by holding the sky and the earth firmly together (Ibid, 43). In Job 22:14 it seems that the gwj is more than the horizon, and includes the vault of heaven as well. This seems to be the case in Isaiah 40:22 as well. Therefore, gwj is the part for the whole of heaven in certain passages in Job and Isaiah. This would be called "Synecdoche of the Part" by Bullinger (1968, 640, see also 892).

In Isaiah 66:1 it says, "Thus saith the LORD, the heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool." The imagery of Isaiah 66 and 40 shows clearly that gwj means the vaulted heavens.


http://www.bibleandscience.com/bible/books/genesis/genesis1_circleearth.htm

Anyway, the circle is a two-dimensional geometric representation of a sphere.


Btw, I stumbled onto this which might be of special interest:

The shape of the Earth closely resembles a flattened sphere (a spheroid)
Because of the combined effects of gravitation and rotation, the Earth's shape is roughly that of a sphere slightly flattened in the direction of its axis. For that reason, in cartography the Earth is often approximated by an oblate spheroid instead of a sphere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great-circle_distance


And here I was envisioning a perfect round. :)

Edited by betsy, 14 May 2011 - 09:58 AM.


#10 betsy

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 10:21 AM

FACT: Invisible atoms, the building blocks


Hebrews 11:3 (New International Version)

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.



Colossians 1:15-17 (New International Version)

The Supremacy of the Son of God
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


#11 WIP

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 10:27 AM

Apparently the use of "circle" is indeed a controversial statement. One of the views presented is this:



http://www.bibleandscience.com/bible/books/genesis/genesis1_circleearth.htm

Anyway, the circle is a two-dimensional geometric representation of a sphere.


Btw, I stumbled onto this which might be of special interest:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great-circle_distance


And here I was envisioning a perfect round. :)

And it is another flimsy excuse by fundamentalist bible literalists, since Hebrew has two different words for circle and sphere. If the writer of Psalms wanted to describe a round spheroid Earth, he had the proper word for it, and did not have to use a 2D reference.

The truth is that ancient Hebrews, like ancient Mesopotamians, had a three level cosmology as described here. If they believed in a round Earth, they would have said so, and not written supporting literature describing a flat earth that was the center of the universe.

I'm quitting for good this time.  I can't stand most of the people who post here.  Most of what passes for debate is pointless bullshit and retreaded propaganda. And I'm fed up with wasting time trying regain use of the quote feature. Time to move on to somewhere that will match my interests and concerns.


#12 WIP

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 10:28 AM

A quote from Tom Paine really fits here:

"The Bible is a book that has been read more and examined less than any book that ever existed."

I'm quitting for good this time.  I can't stand most of the people who post here.  Most of what passes for debate is pointless bullshit and retreaded propaganda. And I'm fed up with wasting time trying regain use of the quote feature. Time to move on to somewhere that will match my interests and concerns.


#13 kimmy

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 10:43 AM

Apparently the use of "circle" is indeed a controversial statement. One of the views presented is this:



That's how it always goes, isn't it... whenever the Bible says something we don't like, we can just blame it on the translation and fix it in the next edition and then it's a perfect document again.


-k
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#14 betsy

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 11:02 AM

A quote from Tom Paine really fits here:

"The Bible is a book that has been read more and examined less than any book that ever existed."



That's just plain rubbish! Just check out the books written for it...and against it! Any book that dwells on the subject of religion, God, beliefe etc.., is sure to bring up the Bible.

It's so scrutinized by its detractors who're trying to find something to say against it or disprove it!

You, yourself, had indicated that you've read - and I assumed tried at least to understand, if not scrutinized - the Bible!

#15 betsy

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 11:07 AM

A quote from Tom Paine really fits here:

"The Bible is a book that has been read more and examined less than any book that ever existed."



Golly! Of all the scientific facts I've given so far, you can only come up with this one? Circle/sphere. :rolleyes:

I remember drawing a circle representing the earth!

Anyway, that's just one guy's personal comment on it....one of the many personal comments thrown around everywhere.

Edited by betsy, 14 May 2011 - 11:12 AM.




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