1968 replies to this topic

[American Woman]

From my understanding the mans dream states would dictate it, and if unconscious his stimulation would have to come from the mind (impossible to manipulate for the woman)not externally.

But if a woman took advantage of a man's dream states sexually, wouldn't that constitute rape?

Edited to add:

I found this example of a woman having sex with a man while he was passed out and the woman got pregnant and sought child support:

-S.F. v. Alabama ex rel. T.M., 695 So. 2d 1186 (Ala. Civ. App. 1996). In that case, the father testified that he went to a party at the mother's house. He had been drinking for several hours before he arrived, and had in fact gotten sick on the way to her house. At the mother's house, the father continued to drink, and the last think he remembered was getting sick again and his brother putting him in bed at the mother's house. The next morning, the father awoke in that same bed with only his shirt on. The father did not remember having sex with the mother, and he did not knowingly and purposely have sex with her.

The father's brother testified as to the same facts. A friend of both the mother testified as to the same facts, plus the fact that about two months after the party, the mother said she had sex with the father while he was "passed out" and that it saved her a trip to the sperm bank. Another friend testified that the mother had said she had sex with the father, "and he wasn't even aware of it."

A physician testified that it is possible for a man who is intoxicated to the point of losing consciousness may nevertheless have an erection and ejaculate; they are not conscious, voluntary activities.

link

Edited by American Woman, 29 August 2012 - 05:16 PM.

[BubberMiley]

A physician testified that it is possible for a man who is intoxicated to the point of losing consciousness may nevertheless have an erection and ejaculate; they are not conscious, voluntary activities.[/indent]

Then that's very obviously what happened. I didn't realize the bible included a pornography section though.

[Melanie_]

Ok, it seems it is possible. Probably incredibly rare, as this seems to be the only case Google can find, but still possible.

[Melanie_]

Like I said - as seen through the eyes of a non-believer. Of course I'm not forcing you to agree with me.

That could also have been said about date-rape victims - if we follow your rationalization.

Why would you buy the story of an adult woman not only getting drugged - but also having been so careless, what with all the news media about this - thus finding herself in a position of having had sex without even knowing about it? C'mon....you gotta be kidding me.

The parallel is quite clear and precise - only the reversal of gender. Your feministic ideology is blinding you....

Anyway, are you an authority on drugs and alcohol?
Why? Have you ever imbibed the drug that you'd know for a fact they're truly out-of-it?

I don't know anyone who'd gone through date-rape - so I can't say for sure if they're truly out of it or not......BUT I've seen some who got so drunk and acted so foolishly and yet has no recollection of it the next day, whereas I know of some too, who had vague recollections of what had transpired. So I guess it depends on the individual how alcohol affects them.

But this is not about what you buy or not. Yours, then, is just an opinion - and therefore shouldn't be taken as a serious argument.

To you, this is about gender.

Whether the story of Lot is true or fiction - the parallel with date-rape is still there.

Well, true or not, ironically what you're saying is that your feminist stance which is hinged on relativism - has no set standard at all! Therefore, your "indignation" over your so-called "discrimination" is plain ridiculous, and quite hypocritical.

You're the one who discriminates.

You think that under the same circumstances, Lot (being a man) should be held accountable for the "crime" committed by two females, and yet you wouldn't consider the same on date-rape cases. So you're either very confused (taken in by all the hype of feminism and naivete)...or blinded by your feminist ideology! Talk about reason!

Interesting how you've made huge assumptions about my position on so many things! You're jumping to conclusions here, based on what you think I would say, rather than on anything I actually said.

Edited by Melanie_, 29 August 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[betsy]

Ok, it seems it is possible. Probably incredibly rare, as this seems to be the only case Google can find, but still possible.

What's rareness got to do with it? Just because it happened to only 1 man, does that somehow lessen the crime (especially since the rape was done to a MAN and not the other way around)?

You probably envision a world ruled by amazons!

Seriously, Feminists like you do more harm to the sensible feminists fight for equality! Not only that, it's an insult to all sensible women! This kind of mentality only perpetuates the misconception that women are airheads!


That's why I'm so against your type of feminism! And I try to ridicule this kind of feminism that claims to speak for all women! You don't speak for me, or for others who think like me.
Phooey! You go out screaming bloody equality when you don't even have a clue what equality means.

Edited by betsy, 30 August 2012 - 03:23 AM.

[betsy]

I've opened a new topic for the on-going discussion related to date-rape/Lot in Moral/Ethical section, titled, "Equality" according to Feminists.

http://www.mapleleaf...showtopic=21324


The discussion between Melanie, AW and others is getting quite interesting that I feel it deserves a section on its own. The string of discussion is re-posted in the new topic.

Edited by betsy, 30 August 2012 - 03:54 AM.

[betsy]

Betsy, the story of Sodom is used consistently by Christians to say that consensual homosexuality is wrong.

Speaking of Sodom....I think I'd posted a fact somewhere here that archeology had found what they believe was Sodom and Gomorrha.

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/04/the-discovery-of-the-sin-cities-of-sodom-and-gomorrah.aspx

Edited by betsy, 30 August 2012 - 04:23 AM.

[Melanie_]

Oh goodie, another thread. Have fun over there.

Betsy, you’ve twisted what I’ve said to suit your purposes, but I expect that of you. My skepticism regarding the story of Lot was not based on a disregard for a man being sexually assaulted, but rather on my (apparently mistaken) belief that it was physically impossible for a man to perform sexually when he was blind drunk and passed out. American Woman has shown otherwise, and I’ve conceded the point. And yes, I still think it is a rare thing for a woman to use an unconscious man to become pregnant, but if it happens it is wrong.

[Melanie_]

Speaking of Sodom....I think I'd posted a fact somewhere here that archeology had found what they believe was Sodom and Gomorrha.

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/04/the-discovery-of-the-sin-cities-of-sodom-and-gomorrah.aspx

Many Biblical places can be found on a map today... but that doesn't justify discrimination against homosexuals.

[bleeding heart]

Oh goodie, another thread. Have fun over there.

Betsy, you’ve twisted what I’ve said to suit your purposes, but I expect that of you. My skepticism regarding the story of Lot was not based on a disregard for a man being sexually assaulted, but rather on my (apparently mistaken) belief that it was physically impossible for a man to perform sexually when he was blind drunk and passed out. American Woman has shown otherwise, and I’ve conceded the point. And yes, I still think it is a rare thing for a woman to use an unconscious man to become pregnant, but if it happens it is wrong.

Rare?



That's putting it pretty generously...though your concession to pedants' arguments is appreciated and fair, your point is generally true, obviously. A handful of exceptions doesn't change that.

And daughters taking sexual advantage of their fathers?

That's about as rare a sexual crime as anyone is likely to find, anywhere.

[Black Dog]

I can't believe people are arguing the details of a story in which a woman gets turned into salt.

[guyser]

But if a woman took advantage of a man's dream states sexually, wouldn't that constitute rape?

Depends on what she looks like. Or what he was dreaming about.

Yes it does.

I found this example of a woman having sex with a man while he was passed out and the woman got pregnant and sought child support:

[indent=1]-S.F. v. Alabama ex rel. T.M., 695 So. 2d 1186 (Ala. Civ. App. 1996).

Point taken and apparently it can happen.

Statistically speaking its almost a zero but, as you show, it isnt absolute zero.

That said, it certaintly does not help Betsy's position against Melanie that it is the same thing just a different gender.
She is still wrong.

Edited by guyser, 30 August 2012 - 07:39 AM.

[cybercoma]

Rare?



That's putting it pretty generously...though your concession to pedants' arguments is appreciated and fair, your point is generally true, obviously. A handful of exceptions doesn't change that.

And daughters taking sexual advantage of their fathers?

That's about as rare a sexual crime as anyone is likely to find, anywhere.

Any guy that's drank an entire bottle of whisky and tried having sex later that night, even while still conscious, knows that you're probably going to be pushing rope. Rare is incredibly generous given the whole situation in that story.

[cybercoma]

I can't believe people are arguing the details of a story in which a woman gets turned into salt.

Bam!

[American Woman]

Point taken and apparently it can happen.

Statistically speaking its almost a zero but, as you show, it isnt absolute zero.

That said, it certaintly does not help Betsy's position against Melanie that it is the same thing just a different gender.
She is still wrong.

There are actually no statistics on it that I can find, but I have found a few instances of people claiming that it's happened on the internet; but I'm not arguing betsy's position - just pointing out that it can and does happen.