166 replies to this topic

[Jack Weber]

But He did not support vengeance...that's the primary topic here. (Maher may well have been theologically mistaken on several other points.)

Correct..But He certainly supported JUSTICE...Remember,He is not only the Christ,but the Messiah AND He will judge this Earth...

Was it vengeance that we went after Adolph Hitler???

[bloodyminded]

To be fair:

1.The "celebrations" seems more like an opportunity for yankee doodle flag waving...

Yes, I don't mean to overstate it.

2.I do remember alot of celebrating in the Muslim world when the Twin Towers came down...

Yes, but we condemn that, so tit-for-tat doesn't quite work.

[Jack Weber]

Yes, I don't mean to overstate it.




Yes, but we condemn that, so tit-for-tat doesn't quite work.

I can't speak for everybody,but in the case of 2001,I kinda expected it from that aprt of the world...Sadly...I was'nt shocked at all that a certain cadre of the Islamic populous would applaud the death of over 3000 people in the den of "The Great Satan"..

However,I do agree that the flag waving,while to be expected,seemed a little over the top.I mean,it's not the Olympics.And it did seem to be more of a "We're #1" type of thing than "Yippee!!!Osama got a bullett in the brain!"

[bloodyminded]

I can't speak for everybody,but in the case of 2001,I kinda expected it from that aprt of the world...Sadly...I was'nt shocked at all that a certain cadre of the Islamic populous would applaud the death of over 3000 people in the den of "The Great Satan"..

However,I do agree that the flag waving,while to be expected,seemed a little over the top.I mean,it's not the Olympics.And it did seem to be more of a "We're #1" type of thing than "Yippee!!!Osama got a bullett in the brain!"

Interestingly, it appears that Osama's death has received more or less a collective shrug in Muslim countries, with even smaller numbers of radicals than expected howling outrage or swearing revenge.

[Jack Weber]

Interestingly, it appears that Osama's death has received more or less a collective shrug in Muslim countries, with even smaller numbers of radicals than expected howling outrage or swearing revenge.

That would be a very good thing..

I have heared that Al Quaeda,because of the counter terrorism efforts,has been reduced to a shadow of its former self...

[Michael Hardner]

And how does the church's recognition of a just war fit into your definition?

I suppose it depends on what is being said. I doubt you will find any member of the church establishment openly hating their enemy.

[Michael Hardner]

TimG.

Only Christians should criticize Christians, for...some reason.

Enter Michael Hardner.

Dilemma solved.

I grew up surrounded by liberal Christians who advocated against war, sheltered refugees from fascist regimes in South America and lived their lives as Christians - in other words the difficult way.

It's very strange to love your enemy, but if you're Christian you have to do it.

[Moonlight Graham]

Mayer does nail it perfectly. I've been saying the same thing about OBL and Obama, and Christian leaders and their foreign policies. Stephen Harper, Obama, Bush, whomever, they are shitty Christians Christ's main message was about loving thy neighbour, forgiveness, and non-violence.

Quite hypocritical that Bush and Obama, the holy Christians they are, torture and execute people, when jesus himself was tortured and executed without resistance to "die for our sins". Looks like we're still sinning.

I'm not making a judgment call on the OBL raid, i'm saying if you're a Christian and for torture/gitmo and murdering your enemy, you ain't a good Christian.

[Moonlight Graham]

There is nothing in Christianity that says capital punishment is wrong.

LOL really? You do realize that Jesus was executed via capital punishment by the Romans, right? He did not resist, and died to show us how wrong it was.

[TimG]

I grew up surrounded by liberal Christians who advocated against war, sheltered refugees from fascist regimes in South America and lived their lives as Christians - in other words the difficult way.

That was their politics. They used their religious to justify it.

It's very strange to love your enemy, but if you're Christian you have to do it.

No more Christian than saying the world was created 6000 years ago or that home sexuality wrong.

What grates me about Mahar is he acknowledged that he has no problem with killing Bin Laden but they criticizes Christians for agreeing with him. It is absurd.

[Michael Hardner]

That was their politics. They used their religious to justify it.

No,it was their faith and their conviction and it came directly from unambiguous teachings they received from the Gospel.

No more Christian than saying the world was created 6000 years ago or that home sexuality wrong.

If you're going to ignore the direct teachings of Jesus then why even call yourself Christian ?

What grates me about Mahar is he acknowledged that he has no problem with killing Bin Laden but they criticizes Christians for agreeing with him. It is absurd.

Why is it absurd ? He's a critic so he calls out hypocrisy. It is his job.

[TimG]

Why is it absurd ? He's a critic so he calls out hypocrisy. It is his job.

It is not his job to invent his own interpretations of the bible and then falsly claim that his interpretations are universally accepted interpretations.

[betsy]

Where is the hypocrisy though ? There's nothing in atheism that denies the necessity of war in some cases is there ?

There is nothing in Christianity that denies the necessity of war in some cases either. Only those who don't understand the doctrine/Bible make the mistake of assuming Christians cannot go to war!

Question: "What does the Bible say about war?"

Answer: Many people make the mistake of reading what the Bible says in Exodus 20:13, “You shall not kill,” and then seeking to apply this command to war. However, the Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice; murder.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12, 15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm to the innocent is by going to war.

In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to “take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). Deuteronomy 20:16-17 declares, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Also, 1 Samuel 15:18 says, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” Obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).


Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20).

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions would have been killed? If the American Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African-Americans have had to suffer as slaves?

War is a terrible thing. Some wars are more “just” than others, but war is always the result of sin (Romans 3:10-18). At the same time, Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “There is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.” In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to conflicts, and praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians on both sides (Philippians 4:6-7).

http://www.gotquestions.org/war-Bible.html

[Michael Hardner]

It is not his job to invent his own interpretations of the bible and then falsly claim that his interpretations are universally accepted interpretations.

His interpretation of the bible is to follow the word of Jesus as quoted. I wouldn't even call it an interpretation.

[Michael Hardner]

There is nothing in Christianity that denies the necessity of war in some cases either. Only those who don't understand the doctrine/Bible make the mistake of assuming Christians cannot go to war!

Of course. But what isn't in question is "love thine enemy". The Catholic church does as good a job as any of explaining how these can be compatible. You won't find, though, that they will advocate a direct contradiction of Jesus' teaching as is proposed here.

Folks, you can twist it around any number of ways, but in the end you're basically saying that you know what it means to be Christian more than Jesus did.

Hate your enemy if you must, but it's not Christian to do so. If you do it, then it's a failing and you must repent. This is such a central tenet of Christianity that it's almost impossible to see it any other way.