15 replies to this topic

[jbg]

Apparently, for some "religious" Jews it isn't enough to be Orthodox. A member of the Chasidic village of New Square, New York decided to worship away from the temple dicated by the "Grand Rebbi". For his pains, they tried to burn him alive.

Simply despicable. Rats on two legs.

Link to story, excerpts below:

CBS/WCBS/AP)

Orthodox Jew burned in arson attempt, family blames religious feud in N.Y. community

NEW SQUARE, N.Y. - An Orthodox Jewish father of four was severely burned after a religious feud led to an arson attempt, according to the victim's family.

Police say Aron Rottenberg, 43, fought off a man armed with an incendiary device Sunday and ended up hospitalized with third-degree burns covering 50 percent of his body. The attacker was carrying a rag soaked with flammable liquid behind the Rottenberg family home in New Square, N.Y., an all-Hasidic Jewish village, police told the Journal News.

***********************

Rottenberg's family says they had been targeted before because Rottenberg worshipped in his own way, apart from the main synagogue used by the community's grand rabbi. Six months ago, car windows were smashed; earlier this month, the windows of the house were busted in, reports WCBS.

"Doing your own thing, that is not something they can take," said Rottenberg's son-in-law, Moshe Elbaum. "They don't like that, because it's showing people can do what they want to do."

As was pointed out in an excellent Ottawa Citizens piece (link, excerpts below) this is itself intolerable.

Even though people have differing ideas of what is meant by peace, it is reasonably safe to say peace is a universal desire. For some, it is a sincere desire for peace and harmony. For others, it is peace on their terms only. It is safe to say faith leaders have not acquitted themselves well on the matter of peace. Faith leaders past and present have actually encouraged more of a "peace on our terms" posture, such as "embrace our faith and we will not kill you."

Leaders within any faith must be renounced for such a policy. And the true people of faith within those communities must be actively involved in calling their "leaders" on this. Faith and peace leave little room for passivity. If peace is important, it needs to be actively and vigorously pursued, even if in the process there are some distinctly unpeaceful exchanges.


Read more: http://www.ottawacit...l#ixzz1NzhwIetD

Edited by jbg, 31 May 2011 - 09:15 PM.

[Remiel]

That is nuts. Intrafaith Jewish religious violence confuses me. Like, WTF?

[jbg]

That is nuts. Intrafaith Jewish religious violence confuses me. Like, WTF?

The saving grace to this awful story is that this is news unlike certain other intra and inter-faith violence.

[Bob]

It's hard for me to believe. The intentional destruction of property is in itself so contrary to values of all ultra-orthodox people I've ever met, let alone violence (or intended murder?!) or another Jewish person. I'll reserve judgment 'til I see more. But if this story is what the allegations claim it to be, well, I'll be speechless. Violence is so contrary to ultra-orthodox. The closest they go is advocating for the IDF to do its job (although they stay out of the IDF!). Craziness.

[jbg]

It's hard for me to believe. The intentional destruction of property is in itself so contrary to values of all ultra-orthodox people I've ever met, let alone violence (or intended murder?!) or another Jewish person. I'll reserve judgment 'til I see more. But if this story is what the allegations claim it to be, well, I'll be speechless. Violence is so contrary to ultra-orthodox. The closest they go is advocating for the IDF to do its job (although they stay out of the IDF!). Craziness.

This is a big local story in my area. Here's the background.

The Village of New Square was established for the purposes of excluding all but the most observant Jews, obtaining government benefits (sometimes fraudulently) and exercising dictatorial control over their people. Included in the litany of its wrongdoing was the establishment, at one point, of creating a fraudulent school exclusively for the purposes of obtaining federal benefits.

Four Hasidic men from New Square, Benjamin Berger, Jacob Elbaum, David Goldstein, and Kalmen Stern, created a nonexistent Jewish school to receive $30 million United States dollars of education grants, subsidies, and loans from the U.S. Federal Government. (link)

Those men mysteriously received pardons from President Clinton on his way out of office, shortly after Hilary Clinton paid a "campaign visit" there.

Maintenance of this culture of corruption and wrongdoing, similar to Arab strongmen such as Hosni Mubarak, depends upon preventing any popular dissent. Thus, apparently, when Aron Rottenberg decided he wanted to worship elsewhere, the decision was met with attempted murder.

[Bob]

This is a big local story in my area. Here's the background.

The Village of New Square was established for the purposes of excluding all but the most observant Jews, obtaining government benefits (sometimes fraudulently) and exercising dictatorial control over their people. Included in the litany of its wrongdoing was the establishment, at one point, of creating a fraudulent school exclusively for the purposes of obtaining federal benefits.



Those men mysteriously received pardons from President Clinton on his way out of office, shortly after Hilary Clinton paid a "campaign visit" there.

Maintenance of this culture of corruption and wrongdoing, similar to Arab strongmen such as Hosni Mubarak, depends upon preventing any popular dissent. Thus, apparently, when Aron Rottenberg decided he wanted to worship elsewhere, the decision was met with attempted murder.

Wow, that's quite the conspiracy. When there's so much money on the line, I guess it's more believable. It's just so pathetic and embarrassing. It's so contrary to honest and humble lifestyles that, in my opinion based on my experiences, are the bedrock of very observant Jews.

[jbg]

Wow, that's quite the conspiracy. When there's so much money on the line, I guess it's more believable. It's just so pathetic and embarrassing. It's so contrary to honest and humble lifestyles that, in my opinion based on my experiences, are the bedrock of very observant Jews.

As you know I am hardly a conspiracy theorist. On paper certain of the Chasidic towns in that vicinity are the poorest in the nation. For poor communities there is a lot of money flowing around.

The overall facts are sickening.

[bud]

It's hard for me to believe. The intentional destruction of property is in itself so contrary to values of all ultra-orthodox people I've ever met, let alone violence (or intended murder?!) or another Jewish person.

but apparently destruction of property and violence towards non-jews is A OK with most ultra-orthodox jews.

[bloodyminded]

It's just so pathetic and embarrassing. It's so contrary to honest and humble lifestyles that, in my opinion based on my experiences, are the bedrock of very observant Jews.

If such occurrences are rare, then that speaks for itself, though, doesn't it?

Edited by bloodyminded, 01 June 2011 - 01:12 PM.

[jbg]

If such occurrences are rare, then that speaks for itself, though, doesn't it?

It's rare except among the ultra-orthodox. I spent some time today scanning my local paper (something I normally look forward to with the same fervor as I anticipate a root canal). There were a plethora of articles about violence and corruption among New Square, Kiryas Joel (sp) and other Chasidic communities in Rockland and Orange Counties in New York.

[bloodyminded]

It's rare except among the ultra-orthodox. I spent some time today scanning my local paper (something I normally look forward to with the same fervor as I anticipate a root canal). There were a plethora of articles about violence and corruption among New Square, Kiryas Joel (sp) and other Chasidic communities in Rockland and Orange Counties in New York.

Meyer Lansky sporting Tefelim?

I was under the impression that such happenings are exceedingly rare among the ultra-orthodox community. That they're not especially given to violence.

[jbg]

Meyer Lansky sporting Tefelim?

I was under the impression that such happenings are exceedingly rare among the ultra-orthodox community. That they're not especially given to violence.

Where did I mention Meyer Lansky?

In any event, I suspect that the expression "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" applies. If Twersky, the Chief Rebbe allowed people to worship elsewhere his base and potential for power and wealth would erode. Twersky's butler was the one who tried to set Aron Rottenberg aflame.

[bloodyminded]

Where did I mention Meyer Lansky?

You didn't. You were talking about Jews, violence and corruption, and his is the first name that popped into my head.

It was a trivial joke, almost clever but not quite. That's all.

In any event, I suspect that the expression "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" applies. If Twersky, the Chief Rebbe allowed people to worship elsewhere his base and potential for power and wealth would erode.

I imagine you're right. I was only remarking that I haven't heard of this sort of thing being particularly common among the Orthodox community.

To be fair, a lot of books have been written filled with things I don't know. The limits of my knowledge are limitless.

[Sir Bandelot]

So it's not a religion problem per se, but a problem with wanting power to control people answerable to you.

jgb, I hope you will apply similar reasoning next time you post a rant about the despicable inhumanity of muslims.

[jbg]

You didn't. You were talking about Jews, violence and corruption, and his is the first name that popped into my head.

It was a trivial joke, almost clever but not quite. That's all.

I just didn't get it. After Court I was, I guess, a bit punchy.

I imagine you're right. I was only remarking that I haven't heard of this sort of thing being particularly common among the Orthodox community.

To be fair, a lot of books have been written filled with things I don't know. The limits of my knowledge are limitless.

jbg, I hope you will apply similar reasoning next time you post a rant about the despicable inhumanity of muslims.

I decry all violence, especially in the name of faith. I cannot believe that any G-d could want to see people slaughtered in G-d's name. You will notice that I haven't posted any new threads on Islam in recent weeks.

However, there is a distinction with Islam. Violence among Orthodox Jews is primarily internecine. That doesn't make it excusable. However, internecine violence can be handled as a criminal rather than military matter. I do not believe state and local law enforcement are giving it adequate treatment, but that can be fixed.

Islam is a difference story. Radical Islam and its predescessors have long been at war with the West. Previously, it's been cast as a battle between "Westernizing" or "colonializing" interests as against "traditional" or "tribal" values. This bloodshed dates back further than Marco Polo days to Biblical times. The reason why I refer to "radical Islam and its predescessors" is that I include Amelkites, Jebusites, Phillistines and other pre-Islam tribes in my views. Backward or traditional people have always lived in fear of better organized, more competent cultures. This is what creates the "blowback" effect; not just Israel, not just oil interests in Asia, Middle East and Africa.

Unfortunately, whatever the cause, and whatever the possible fault level of some on the West, we cannot live with planes being plowed into buildings and cell-phone controlled "devices" blowing up trains and subways packed with civilian commuters. We cannot flaggelate ourselves for Western beliefs, Western freedoms and an organized, usually well-functioning free enterprise system. We cannot agree to dhimmitude on a world scale to make radical Islamic leaders happy.

So it's not a religion problem per se, but a problem with wanting power to control people answerable to you.

Same with the problem with Kyoto, banning cell-phone use in cars, etc. The list goes on.