14 replies to this topic

[August1991]

If a restaurant serves you lousy food or a spouse cheats, you can take matters into your own hands and go elsewhere. But when the State makes a mistake, what can you do? Change your vote in the next election? [I have mixed feelings about this question but I would agree with Churchill's comment that democracy is the worst form of government compared to all the others.]

When the State bungles, it seems like bad weather. Huh? Since we live in a democratic state, people can not only complain about the weather - they can also complain about how stupid/ignorant/corrupt/greedy other people are.

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What are people saying? Who is at fault? Why did this happen?

1. It is said that Quebec uses so much concrete because of hydro. To build the dams, Quebec developed a cement industry. (For similar reasons, the Soviet Union and Quebec also seemed to use aluminum often for windows and doors.) These concrete solar coverings/bridges should not exist. Instead, we should use steel for bridges.

2. John James Charest is in bed with the mafia construction people.

3. In the past 30 years, the neo-liberals/neo-cons have forced governments to reduce the number of government bridge inspectors, and public employees in general.

4. Quebec construction/bridge inspectors are typical civil servants; they are incompetent.

5. Quebec ministers are liars, and incompetent.

6. Quebec prefers to spend money on cultural shows rather than basic infrastructure. (This is my own favourite since my Google news is filled with U2, Paul MacCartney concerts, Deneuve, Lelouch in Montreal. Hence the the title for this thread.)

7. It happens in the US too. There was a bridge in Minneapolis that collapsed, killing many people also.

8. If Quebec were sovereign, it would not be a banana republic with a colonial mentality and collapsing bridges.

9. If Quebec separatists had not wasted 40 years arguing about sovereignty, we would not have collapsing bridges.

Take your pick. When it comes to a public issue in a democracy, like the US debt, the issue itself is not at stake: it is your opinion of the issue that matters. If your neighbour loves MacCartney and you think your neighbour is an idiot, then you should take a side.

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Except. Like many others, I drive through that tunnel roughly once every two weeks. Many, many others drive twice through it every day.

We all know that it fell on a Sunday morning.

Montreal/Quebec is ripe for a 21st century version of a California/Proposition 13 revolt.

Edited by August1991, 02 August 2011 - 02:01 PM.

[Wild Bill]

What are people saying? Who is at fault? Why did this happen?

Except. Like many others, I drive through that tunnel roughly once every two weeks. Many, many others drive twice through it every day.

We all know that it fell on a Sunday morning.

Montreal/Quebec is ripe for a 21st century version of a California/Proposition 13 revolt.

August, I was a concrete inspector on one of my first jobs, back in the 70's. Although we hardly joked about it every day, the situation in Quebec as to inspection and construction corruption was well known among us. We were damn glad we worked in Ontario!

Everything revolves around the quality of the inspection, since it is so easy to cheat at the time construction is in progress. For instance, I've been at sites where the specs call for a number of certain sized reinforcing bars to be placed in a large concrete base slab along each perimeter edge. These steel bars are expensive and I've caught crews pulling the same bars along each edge as the concrete was being poured, making it look like 4 sets were placed but in reality there was only one. The lack of bars in the other 3 sides would dramatically cause 3 weak spots!

We took constant tests and samples as concrete was poured. Perhaps the most important was called the "slump" test, where we would place a sample in a certain consistent manner into a metal cone. When we carefully pulled the cone up the concrete would "slump" a bit if dry, a lot if wet and the cone would totally collapse if too wet! The amount of moisture affects the strength of concrete. Mixing in too much water makes it too weak when it is dry and set, but far easier for the workmen to push around when first placing it!

There are buildings in Hamilton where to this day I refuse to step out on a balcony. Not nearly as many as in Quebec, perhaps. Still, there are some.

Everyone knew there was some mob activity in the construction industry but it was kept below a minimum that affected the quality and thus the safety of the job. These projects cost so much money that the financiers insisted on a high level of inspection throughout the construction processes. By comparision, there was little or no inspection of a private citizen's potential home. If his basement floor cracked he was on his own.

I'm not sure but I believe the laws are a bit different in Ontario than Quebec, in order to assure legal redress if your skyscraper falls down!

The impression, and here I offer no proof but only this popular impression, was that in Quebec the corruption went all the way up to the politicians. That's why you had to fear concrete falling on your head at an Expo game!

"Corrupt policemen" indeed, August. When it goes that deep, I have no idea what the Quebec people can do about it. So far virtually none of your political options has shown himself to be a crusader...

[Sir Bandelot]

Take your pick. When it comes to a public issue in a democracy, like the US debt, the issue itself is not at stake: it is your opinion of the issue that matters. If your neighbour loves MacCartney and you think your neighbour is an idiot, then you should take a side.

---

Except. Like many others, I drive through that tunnel roughly once every two weeks. Many, many others drive twice through it every day.

We all know that it fell on a Sunday morning.

Montreal/Quebec is ripe for a 21st century version of a California/Proposition 13 revolt.

I think #9 overrules #8. You Quebecers have got to stop blaming all your problems on sovereignity. Although every province is having some infrastructure problems, clearly this is a bigger problem in Quebec, possibly due to increased corruption. In that sense, the dole of federal money you get has made you folks lazy whiners who can't get their own house in order, and seek to blame the rest of Canada while sitting on your couch, eating a steady diet of government cheese. Let's hope the resounding thud of collapsing bridges is a wakeup call for Quebecers!

[Oleg Bach]

Someone said to the insult of Quebecers that Montreal is the most corrupt city in Canada - It might be so - Here is a recent story that came to my ear...a relative who is married to a Montrealer...sent this info along.. This persons father recently passed away - the person had to go to Montreal to settle the estate..the persons brother was the other heir - Years ago this persons brother was a Quebec cop - who did some time for importing and distributing cocaine...That was a long while ago...NOW this person who is the brother ...of the executor of the will - Runs a facility for handicapped people - He owns a building with about 20 units...and of course it is heavliy susidized by the government...and needless to say this x-cop is turning a tidy profit from this enterprise...He must be be a nice guy - and he must be on the up and up...to be envolved with helping the poor and crippled............well - you would think that this do-godder former crooked cop would be happy and satisfied with his new respectable career - no so - from what I heard - it was reported that he he was back to dealing cocaine - and worste of all - to a pregnant woman - corrupt? Damned right!

[August1991]

Quebec stole the political spotlight again this week, with a slew of stories which range from the eye-rolling to the outrageous — depending on where you live and pay taxes.

Sad

I largely agree with Tasha. But I think the problem is larger.

[August1991]

I think #9 overrules #8. You Quebecers have got to stop blaming all your problems on sovereignity.

SB, you are not wrong - but you have no idea how deep this goes.

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I have been abroad for the past few weeks but this is an issue that I have watched. I am astonished. This affects people in their daily lives and yet the official press makes only Soviet-style notice.

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IMV, Quebec is ripe for a phenomenal change. I have no idea in what direction this change will go.

[charter.rights]

If a restaurant serves you lousy food or a spouse cheats, you can take matters into your own hands and go elsewhere. But when the State makes a mistake, what can you do? Change your vote in the next election? [I have mixed feelings about this question but I would agree with Churchill's comment that democracy is the worst form of government compared to all the others.]

When the State bungles, it seems like bad weather. Huh? Since we live in a democratic state, people can not only complain about the weather - they can also complain about how stupid/ignorant/corrupt/greedy other people are.

----

What are people saying? Who is at fault? Why did this happen?

1. It is said that Quebec uses so much concrete because of hydro. To build the dams, Quebec developed a cement industry. (For similar reasons, the Soviet Union and Quebec also seemed to use aluminum often for windows and doors.) These concrete solar coverings/bridges should not exist. Instead, we should use steel for bridges.

2. John James Charest is in bed with the mafia construction people.

3. In the past 30 years, the neo-liberals/neo-cons have forced governments to reduce the number of government bridge inspectors, and public employees in general.

4. Quebec construction/bridge inspectors are typical civil servants; they are incompetent.

5. Quebec ministers are liars, and incompetent.

6. Quebec prefers to spend money on cultural shows rather than basic infrastructure. (This is my own favourite since my Google news is filled with U2, Paul MacCartney concerts, Deneuve, Lelouch in Montreal. Hence the the title for this thread.)

7. It happens in the US too. There was a bridge in Minneapolis that collapsed, killing many people also.

8. If Quebec were sovereign, it would not be a banana republic with a colonial mentality and collapsing bridges.

9. If Quebec separatists had not wasted 40 years arguing about sovereignty, we would not have collapsing bridges.

Take your pick. When it comes to a public issue in a democracy, like the US debt, the issue itself is not at stake: it is your opinion of the issue that matters. If your neighbour loves MacCartney and you think your neighbour is an idiot, then you should take a side.

---

Except. Like many others, I drive through that tunnel roughly once every two weeks. Many, many others drive twice through it every day.

We all know that it fell on a Sunday morning.

Montreal/Quebec is ripe for a 21st century version of a California/Proposition 13 revolt.

The most practical thing for you is to move out of Quebec. That is what a democracy allows you to do.

[August1991]

The most practical thing for you is to move out of Quebec. That is what a democracy allows you to do.

By history (a century or three), people in Quebec are the most civilized on this planet. We agreed to get along.

The US could not wish for a better northern neighbour, and British Canada could not wish for a better minority.

Edited by August1991, 21 August 2011 - 04:23 AM.

[Oleg Bach]

SB, you are not wrong - but you have no idea how deep this goes.

----

I have been abroad for the past few weeks but this is an issue that I have watched. I am astonished. This affects people in their daily lives and yet the official press makes only Soviet-style notice.

----

IMV, Quebec is ripe for a phenomenal change. I have no idea in what direction this change will go.

It might be scarey what takes place if not managed and properly oppressed. Oh I used the word "oppressed" as in oppression..It's not a bad word - nor is intolerance a bad thing. It might be history repeating itself. If I go back only one generation my family has a history of being "convicted" - and executed..by the soviets. Some think that his type of craziness can not spring up in North America. Anything is possible - so as I said...if Quebec develops a dangerous political ideology...run by corrupt jerks - and as we know corruption in places like Montreal is typical and normal. I say nip it in the bud - why fund a movement through tax dollars that will harm those who paid the taxes? It is much like funding China through one sided trade - and having to worry about agression later - that we paid for - It is a lot like being beaten with your own walking stick - it is foolish.

[charter.rights]

By history (a century or three), people in Quebec are the most civilized on this planet. We agreed to get along.

Regardless.

A province that fails to uphold the public good is not a democracy, but a oligarchy.

You really should move. If you stay you have nothing to complain about unless you are willing to stand protest for your democratic right to be protected against the decay of the infrastructure.

The US could not wish for a better northern neighbour, and British Canada could not wish for a better minority.

I'm sure Florida however, could do without all the Speedos....

Edited by charter.rights, 21 August 2011 - 04:57 AM.

[Oleg Bach]

Regardless.

A province that fails to uphold the public good is not a democracy, but a oligarchy.

You really should move. If you stay you have nothing to complain about unless you are willing to stand protest for your democratic right to be protected against the decay of the infrastructure.

No one likes to leave what is familar to them. Like an abuse woman who fears the world and the challenge of a new life...so she stays with the guy that says " I love you dear" and then strikes her on the face. Quebec - has become an place that is controlled by an old mafia...I know of people who operate in Montreal - who take money from the province to run a facility that takes care of handicaped people - and on the side they deal a little bit of cocaine ...and the authorities turn a blind eye to it - money is more imporatant than honour and integrity in Quebec..no point in leaving - set an example and assist it the recovery of the province.

[Sir Bandelot]

I know of people who operate in Montreal - who take money from the province to run a facility that takes care of handicaped people - and on the side they deal a little bit of cocaine ...and the authorities turn a blind eye to it - money is more imporatant than honour and integrity in Quebec.

If Quebec is on drugs, it's the federal money. We need to do a big favour and put that province in rehab.

[Oleg Bach]

If Quebec is on drugs, it's the federal money. We need to do a big favour and put that province in rehab.

What I was talking about was a person that I have never met who was a former cop - and tossed out for shipping in Cocaine - now this corrupt cop is supplied with public money and still dabbles in the cocaine trade....You would imagine that because of his conviction that the government would not have granted him a licence to run a facility that was funded by tax dollars - but they did.

The reason their infrastructure is coming apart is similar to why our Gardener Expressway is crumbling - Becuase instead of using 300 cubic yards of concrete per support - and making sure the re-barb was at least 4 inches from the surface...The corrupt contractors used 280 cubic yards and the supporting metal was one inch from the surface (the numbers are not precise of course) - So what takes place is that some corrupt contractor cause an on going debt for the next 30 years that the public is paying - everytime a chunk of concrete falls from above.


Yes Quebec needs to be re-habiltiated - and soon - if we wait to long..they will cost the feds twice as much...separation is not as much of a problem as the real problem of separation of re-enforcement rods from bad concrete - corruption in Quebec and the long term effects of it are just showing the first symptoms as of late - It will get worse - You can not have gangsters run a province and expect federal money to support their crimminal and inept behaviour....It's over...time to clean up - or in 10 years Quebec will incrimentally impoverish all of Canada.

[August1991]

If Quebec is on drugs, it's the federal money. We need to do a big favour and put that province in rehab.

Americans could say the same of English Canadians.

English Canadians benefit from from American protection - and yet criticize Americans.

Edited by August1991, 21 August 2011 - 06:23 AM.

[Oleg Bach]

Americans could say the same of English Canadians.

English Canadians benefit from from American protection - and yet criticize Americans.

We do not benefit from American protection - If we did they would be flying around up north keeping the Russians out..but they don't - we have to protect our own boarders and resourses.