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How do Conservative Christians ignore that their saviour


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#61 dre

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 02:18 PM

Note that you're putting your connotation of what Jesus is on his existence - not Christianity's. My point stands.



Its not his connotations its Jesus's own words according to the Christian Bible. He was pretty clear on the whole idea of accumulating earthly material treasury. He said dont do it. He was also very clear on the chances of a rich person entering the kingdom of god (zero).

I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer that a stranger
 


#62 kimmy

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 02:26 PM

Strangely enough, if it's obvious to an atheist what Jesus would do, said atheist is acknowledging the existence of Jesus. It's impossible to "know" what someone who doesn't exist would do. The two claims are totally at odds with each other.


Not at all. Asking what Jesus would do in a situation is no different from asking what Tom Sawyer or Dirty Harry Callahan or Hawkeye Pierce would do: take a character with well-known traits and use that understanding of the character to extrapolate how that character would respond to a given situation. The only difference is, deciding how Tom Sawyer would handle a situation isn't a matter of theological importance to anyone.

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"The essence of my happiness is fighting for the happiness of others." -Roza Shanina, Red Army sniper 1943-1945.

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 02:28 PM

Its not his connotations its Jesus's own words according to the Christian Bible. He was pretty clear on the whole idea of accumulating earthly material treasury. He said dont do it. He was also very clear on the chances of a rich person entering the kingdom of god (zero).

Ummmm. I clearly wasn't referring to his connotation of Jesus' words............

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 02:30 PM

Not at all. Asking what Jesus would do in a situation is no different from asking what Tom Sawyer or Dirty Harry Callahan or Hawkeye Pierce would do......

Alrighty then. <_<

You've actually just strengthened my stance.

#65 kimmy

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 02:34 PM

Alrighty then. <_<

You've actually just strengthened my stance.


haha, no. Christians who ask "WWJD?" are speculating as to how Jesus would handle a situation based on what they've read about him in a book, which is an exercise that could just as easily performed for any other literary character, real or fictional. Such speculation in no way requires a belief in the historical existence of the character, just an understanding of the character as expressed in the literature. You've made a logical error.

-k

Edited by kimmy, 12 November 2011 - 02:34 PM.

"The essence of my happiness is fighting for the happiness of others." -Roza Shanina, Red Army sniper 1943-1945.

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 02:39 PM

You've made a logical error.

Ummmm. No. Haha. I haven't. As I said, you just strengthen my stance.

But do have a nice day. I'm sure that's what Jesus would want. ;)

#67 eyeball

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 04:23 PM

Ummmm. No. Haha. I haven't. As I said, you just strengthen my stance.

But do have a nice day. I'm sure that's what Jesus would want. ;)

I'm pretty sure if Jesus was posting this he'd include one of these :rolleyes:

#68 kimmy

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 06:57 PM

Speculating how the guy described in the New Testament would respond to Lou Engle or Fred Phelps (or indeed much of present-day "Christian Right" politics) is a hypothetical question (and an easy one) that requires no belief in the divinity of Jesus or the historical accuracy of the bible, just a knowledge of the description we have in the Bible. You haven't (and you can't) argue otherwise.

Not sure what the real issue is here; you seem bent by the idea that non-Christians might have opinions about Christian scripture. Maybe it seems presumptuous or something. Well, we live in nations where everybody-- Christian and non-Christian a like-- has plenty of exposure to Christian theology, and it's not hard to spot instances where the practice doesn't line up with the theory.

-k
"The essence of my happiness is fighting for the happiness of others." -Roza Shanina, Red Army sniper 1943-1945.

#69 Manny

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 07:29 PM

No one knows for sure what Jesus would really do. Who can say they know what someone else would do? Some people might like to think so.

However based on what's written in the bible let me point out, Jesus was against the scribes and the pharisees. He called the priests hypocrites and a brood of vipers. Looking at the history of the church over the next 1,500 years or so, became the very thing that Jesus was fighting against the most, the Roman empire. They inherited all the violence. The pope and the cardinals, they are like the emperor and the senators. They even wear the same red clothes. And look how they tortured people using the rack, the iron maiden and burning them alive.

Sure some people will say, but they don't do those things now. But that is their historical legacy. For centuries they did that, to oppress humanity. That why they deserve to be trampled into the ground.

So for me, my Jesus does not belong to any church. The kind of things that Jesus spoke about, love and mercy, understanding, forgiveness, you can't institutionalize that or make a system out of it. As soon as you do, you destroy it.

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 09:03 PM

Not sure what the real issue is here; you seem bent by the idea that non-Christians might have opinions about Christian scripture. Maybe it seems presumptuous or something.

Come on, kimmy - you're smarter than that. I'm clearly not "bent" on the idea that non-Christians might have opinions about "Christian scripture." I've made it quite clear that it's not the opinions about "scripture" that I've been commenting on.

Well, we live in nations where everybody-- Christian and non-Christian a like-- has plenty of exposure to Christian theology, and it's not hard to spot instances where the practice doesn't line up with the theory.

Again, it's not comments on "Christian theology" that I've been responding to. It's the idea that someone who believes there's no difference between Jesus and Pierce Hawk, that there's no difference between Jesus and a fictional character, would presume to tell us "what Jesus would do." That is presumptuous. Or something.

#71 cybercoma

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 09:09 PM

Note that you're putting your connotation of what Jesus is on his existence - not Christianity's. My point stands.

For that matter, Christians don't even agree.

#72 cybercoma

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 09:15 PM

Again, it's not comments on "Christian theology" that I've been responding to. It's the idea that someone who believes there's no difference between Jesus and Pierce Hawk, that there's no difference between Jesus and a fictional character, would presume to tell us "what Jesus would do." That is presumptuous. Or something.

She didn't say there was no difference between them. She said Jesus can be read as a character out of the text of the Bible, regardless of your beliefs about his existence or divinity. Not once did she say, "there's no difference between Jesus and Pierce Hawk" [emphasis mine].

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 10:00 PM

She didn't say there was no difference between them. She said Jesus can be read as a character out of the text of the Bible, regardless of your beliefs about his existence or divinity. Not once did she say, "there's no difference between Jesus and Pierce Hawk" [emphasis mine].

By comparing them both as "characters out of a book," no more, no less, one is in effect saying there is no difference. One is made up, thus their characteristics are made up, the other isn't.

#74 eyeball

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 10:10 PM

By comparing them both as "characters out of a book," no more, no less, one is in effect saying there is no difference. One is made up, thus their characteristics are made up, the other isn't.

And so atheists have no business asking WWJD because they're atheists?

How profoundly odd.

#75 fellowtraveller

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 10:28 PM

Most of the Christians I know are from sects like United, Lutheran, Methodist, Catholic and they are not conservative or Conservatives.

Edited by fellowtraveller, 12 November 2011 - 10:28 PM.

The government should do something.



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