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Caterpillar Trying to Cut Wags & Benefits by 50% when Profitable


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#31 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 11:58 AM

... in hindsight, ICA should have been invoked... or at least, Caterpillar should have been held to guarantees to keep the plant/factory viable for its existing work-base... viable to a level to match pre-takeover conditions. And if Caterpillar wasn't accepting to those guarantees/conditions, then so be it... no foreign takeover!



Then I hope CAT shutters the plant and teaches Canada a lesson in globalization. Wanna play with the big boys and take their capital investment for over 50 years? Then be prepared to take some lumps.
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#32 waldo

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 12:08 PM

Then I hope CAT shutters the plant and teaches Canada a lesson in globalization. Wanna play with the big boys and take their capital investment for over 50 years? Then be prepared to take some lumps.


takeover date: June 2010..... not quite 50 years, hey?

#33 Topaz

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 03:54 PM

I just heard on the TV, that if Cat wants to sell locomotives in the US they have to MADE in the US and so they have built a new plant down there. So just like Navistar they are on their way out and the workers don't have a pray if Tony Clements didn't put a clause in the5 million agreement CAT borrowed and since we are talking about a party that gives the US anything it wants, they didn't put a safety clause in the agreement.

#34 dre

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 05:55 PM

Why yes...I do. I don't know why one would continue to champion disenfranchising global labor in favor of an unsustainable wage and benefit structure in Canada or the USA, especially when such products are sold around the world. Did the CAW feel sorry for the loss of American union jobs when parts of US operations were outsourced to Canada? I think not....



unsustainable wage and benefit structure


Also know as "having a middle class".

#35 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 06:08 PM

Also know as "having a middle class".



Yes, a very recent development. Easy come...easy go. The world will still have a "middle class"...somewhere.
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#36 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 06:14 PM

takeover date: June 2010..... not quite 50 years, hey?



Doesn't matter whether it was 2010 or 1960....we know what it is about, the only argument is how much it will cost. EMD is no stranger to that trick:



Electro-Motive Diesel, Inc. traces its roots to the Electro-Motive Engineering Corporation, founded in 1922. In 1930, General Motors Corporation purchased the Winton Engine Co. and Winton's primary customer of gasoline engines, Electro-Motive Corporation (a gasoline-electric car manufacturer), combining the two to form GM's Electro-Motive Division (EMD) on January 1, 1941. In 2005, GM sold EMD to Greenbriar Equity Group LLC, Berkshire Partners LLC and certain related parties, which formed Electro-Motive Diesel, Inc., to facilitate the purchase. On August 2, 2010, Progress Rail Services Corporation completed the purchase of Electro-Motive Diesel, Inc. from Greenbriar, Berkshire, et al. making Electro-Motive Diesel, Inc. a wholly owned subsidiary of Progress Rail Services Corporation.


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"Access to a wait list is not Access to healthcare" - Chief Justice Beverly McLauchlin

#37 waldo

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 11:37 PM

Doesn't matter whether it was 2010 or 1960....we know what it is about, the only argument is how much it will cost. EMD is no stranger to that trick:

Electro-Motive Diesel, Inc. traces its roots to the Electro-Motive Engineering Corporation, founded in 1922. In 1930, General Motors Corporation purchased the Winton Engine Co. and Winton's primary customer of gasoline engines, Electro-Motive Corporation (a gasoline-electric car manufacturer), combining the two to form GM's Electro-Motive Division (EMD) on January 1, 1941. In 2005, GM sold EMD to Greenbriar Equity Group LLC, Berkshire Partners LLC and certain related parties, which formed Electro-Motive Diesel, Inc., to facilitate the purchase. On August 2, 2010, Progress Rail Services Corporation completed the purchase of Electro-Motive Diesel, Inc. from Greenbriar, Berkshire, et al. making Electro-Motive Diesel, Inc. a wholly owned subsidiary of Progress Rail Services Corporation.


excellent wiki prowess... but... what's your point?

GM wanted to do business in Canada - ergo... in 1949 it established GM Diesel as the Canadian subsidiary of its Electro Motive division... effectively the standard end-around to Canadian import tariff protections. And then, in 2005, GM divested itself of its locomotive manufacturing and Electro-Motive was "Romneyfied", ala U.S. investment groups purchase, reestablishing the Canadian subsidiary GM Diesel as Electro-Motive Canada. The standard investment group, corporation 'flip' move, took a few years longer than the norm, but eventually Caterpillar bit and gobbled-up a key competitor, Electro-Motive, from the stalwart corporation flippers, Berkshire Partners/Greenbriar Equity.

again, what was your point?

#38 Wild Bill

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:13 AM


excellent wiki prowess... but... what's your point?

GM wanted to do business in Canada - ergo... in 1949 it established GM Diesel as the Canadian subsidiary of its Electro Motive division... effectively the standard end-around to Canadian import tariff protections. And then, in 2005, GM divested itself of its locomotive manufacturing and Electro-Motive was "Romneyfied", ala U.S. investment groups purchase, reestablishing the Canadian subsidiary GM Diesel as Electro-Motive Canada. The standard investment group, corporation 'flip' move, took a few years longer than the norm, but eventually Caterpillar bit and gobbled-up a key competitor, Electro-Motive, from the stalwart corporation flippers, Berkshire Partners/Greenbriar Equity.

again, what was your point?


I had some personal insight into this very plant, Waldo. I sold parts to them throughout the 90's.

Frankly, I'm surprised they stayed in business this long! This plant, along with virtually all Westinghouse, General Electric and other "old names" was woefully mired in the past. They were stuck in 1965!

They all just kept downsizing and downsizing, shedding employees by retirement and attrition. Their main difficulty is that all of them had smaller or larger portions of their market in the military world, where specifications and quality control methods were left far behind in the dust during the high tech wave of the 80's and 90's.

The only reason they lasted as long as they did was because there was a clause in the Defence Agreements that said the companies had to keep some capacity in Canada. So they would give their Canadian branches the older, becoming obsolete stuff. In the 90's when I was there GM was beginning to face hard competition on locomotive engines from China. I would imagine that has increased, not gone away!

Even GM's locomotive division had the same problems. Under the same roof they built military vehicles, like the present armoured personnel carriers. Such businesses tended to share the same sort of paperwork and quality control methods, for thinking the long past notion that military specs ensured better quality. With many modern materials, especially electronics, this has long been false!

So when you couple old age, obsolescence and general stodginess together it's no wonder people like me that got to see behind the curtain have been expecting them to die off for decades now!

Now the American masters are pulling the plug. Quelle Surpriz!

This argument reminds me of a similar situation when I worked for what was left of the old Westinghouse Vacuum Tube manufacturing division, in the late 80's. There was only a half dozen or so older employees left, waiting to retire while they re-branded vacuum tubes under the Westinghouse name to sell for replacements.

One old timer at the desk beside mine told me one day that what had killed their business was the entry of cheap Japanese vacuum tubes into our market. He went on to say that the company and the union both had petitioned the federal government to put up tariffs on the Japanese product so that Westinghouse could continue to compete.

I asked my friend what time frame was he talking about. "Around 1978", he replied.

1978! I was shocked! The entire world had gone solid state in the early 60's! Sales had fallen off because no one was using them anymore! No vacuum tube radios, or tvs, or hifi's!

I held my tongue, because I suddenly realized that my older friends had never noticed how the world had changed around them. Pointing it out would have done no good. It only might have offended them.

This Electro Motive situation seems exactly the same.

Edited by Wild Bill, 04 January 2012 - 01:36 PM.

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#39 waldo

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:31 AM

Now the American masters are pulling the plug. Quelle Surpriz!

thanks for your interesting personal insights; however, if one takes Caterpillar at it's word, they would carry on in Canada... just so long as the workers are prepared to slash their existing wages/benefits to match those of Caterpillar's like American workforce. So, 'pulling the plug' is a relative term. I recently read an article that showcased how U.S. corporations were now beginning to pull-back "some" offshore manufacturing... in several cited cases, this was expansion to existing U.S. factories that had earlier been partially outsourced overseas. In the cited cases, wage/benefit provisions were agreed to by labour such that new employees were to receive less than half the wage and reduced benefits of existing U.S. employees doing the same work, in the same plants... for the U.S. unions it seems to be more about getting the jobs back then concerns over wage/benefit parity - at least for now. Caterpillar seems to be trying for it's own wrinkle on this theme by "forcing" existing London workers to lower wages/benefits to the now considerably lowered U.S. wages/benefits.

#40 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:41 AM



again, what was your point?



LOL!...You have already made my point splendidly, with a nice follow-up from member WB...

What the Americans giveth...the Americans can taketh away.
Economics trumps Virtue.
"Access to a wait list is not Access to healthcare" - Chief Justice Beverly McLauchlin

#41 Shady

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 11:54 AM

Also know as "having a middle class".

There's plenty of "middle class" that operate under sustainable wages and benefits.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win" - Gandhi

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#42 waldo

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 12:03 PM

LOL!...You have already made my point splendidly, with a nice follow-up from member WB...

What the Americans giveth...the Americans can taketh away.

was it self-serving on your part to ignore just how Canada allowed GM to initially establish it's Canadian GM Diesel division? You know... forcing GM to create a Canadian plant to allow it to 'bypass' import tariffs? I guess in that case, the viewpoint taken becomes one of what the Americans wanted... and the Canadians desired... the Canadians can giveth - hey?

#43 waldo

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 12:04 PM

There's plenty of "middle class" that operate under sustainable wages and benefits.


define 'sustainable wages and benefits', particularly as it applies to what Caterpillar is imposing in terms of reduced wages/benefits

#44 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 12:09 PM

define 'sustainable wages and benefits', particularly as it applies to what Caterpillar is imposing in terms of reduced wages/benefits



Lot's of people can live on the "sustainable" wages and benefits that the CAW looks down on. Wages are not imposed....they are either accepted by contract or the plant closes down. Welcome to reality.
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#45 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 12:12 PM

was it self-serving on your part to ignore just how Canada allowed GM to initially establish it's Canadian GM Diesel division? You know... forcing GM to create a Canadian plant to allow it to 'bypass' import tariffs? I guess in that case, the viewpoint taken becomes one of what the Americans wanted... and the Canadians desired... the Canadians can giveth - hey?



Works either way for me...in the end, will EMD exist or not? Stop pissing and moaning about American investment if not prepared to go without it.
Economics trumps Virtue.
"Access to a wait list is not Access to healthcare" - Chief Justice Beverly McLauchlin