44 replies to this topic

[DogOnPorch]

One should point out, too, that African Christianity can have many trappings of traditional African religions. Like their seeing witches everywhere. There are videos online of rather violent witch burnings in Africa that nobody would call Christianity in the sense it is understood in the West.

[The_Squid]

Can I have a modern example, please?


Statistics of small numbers (such as drawing conclusions from inadequate sample sizes).

I didn't realize that you asking for "a modern example" meant that you actually wanted 10,000 modern examples...

Show me where I drew any statistical conclusions....

You asked for a modern example and I easily found one. If you know how to use google you will find many others... a documentary about the problem... a NY Times article about the problem in Nigeria... It seems to be a problem in Christian Africa... how big is it? I don't know, and you didn't ask.

[DogOnPorch]

See above.

[The_Squid]

One should point out, too, that African Christianity can have many trappings of traditional African religions. Like their seeing witches everywhere. There are videos online of rather violent witch burnings in Africa that nobody would call Christianity in the sense it is understood in the West.

That's like saying it wasn't really Christians that burned witches in the past because modern western Christians would never do such a thing.

[DogOnPorch]

That's like saying it wasn't really Christians that burned witches in the past because modern western Christians would never do such a thing.

I'm not allowed to post these videos here (a few warnings...) so you'll just have to trust me that these witch hunts have zero resemblance to Christianity as YOU know it. But sure, if you want to pretend the church-going folks down your street want to do likewise, have at 'er.

[The_Squid]

See above.

So perhaps you should have said "Other than Africans (who aren't really Christians) show me a modern example".

[Michael Hardner]

Recycled argument alert:

The attempt to blame religion - any religion - for something or other never seems to get anywhere here. That includes the pervasive blaming of all ills on Christianity, which some on here have tried to do...

[The_Squid]

Recycled argument alert:

The attempt to blame religion - any religion - for something or other never seems to get anywhere here. That includes the pervasive blaming of all ills on Christianity, which some on here have tried to do...

If one does not want to see any of the ills still perpetrated by the devoutly religious, then one should not ask for "a modern example" of them.

I did not claim this was widespread or that it was condoned by the Pope. It was an answer to the question "Christians will immediately start burning folks for heresy, witchcraft, etc?"

Well.... obviously some still do!! Those Christians seem to be a bit behind the times...

[Michael Hardner]

If one does not want to see any of the ills still perpetrated by the devoutly religious, then one should not ask for "a modern example" of them.

I did not claim this was widespread or that it was condoned by the Pope. It was an answer to the question "Christians will immediately start burning folks for heresy, witchcraft, etc?"

Well.... obviously some still do!! Those Christians seem to be a bit behind the times...

Right... but.... it still doesn't work. The problem is that there is no way to isolate religion (eg. Christianity) as a cause of bad behaviour. So the example means nothing to the big picture. Even asking for the example is a step into illogic, since the example would prove nothing...

[dre]

So left to their own devices and traditions, Christians will immediately start burning folks for heresy, witchcraft, etc? Revert to the 1600s so to speak? Can I have a modern example, please?

Theres few modern examples because we stripped religion of all its civil power a century or two ago, and relegated them to "private club" status with the same ammount of civil authority as the girl guides club.

Just take a look at how they behaved when the church was the state.

[DogOnPorch]

So perhaps you should have said "Other than Africans (who aren't really Christians) show me a modern example".

Yawn. Yep....Daktari. Great TV show.

[DogOnPorch]

Theres few modern examples because we stripped religion of all its civil power a century or two ago, and relegated them to "private club" status with the same ammount of civil authority as the girl guides club.

Like multiculturalism, religion isn't a two-way street. While you and I might put religion on the back burner, others have it front and centre.

Just take a look at how they behaved when the church was the state.

When, exactly?

Edited by DogOnPorch, 07 February 2012 - 09:43 PM.

[dre]

When, exactly?

When they had civil authority.

Like multiculturalism, religion isn't a two-way street. While you and I might put religion on the back burner, others have it front and centre.

Good for them. The girl guides can have selling cookies front and center too. The point is that religious people in the west (not just Christians) behave better, both because they live in a more structured society with a massive security apparatus to crush them if they step out of line, and because they have no authority.

Edited by dre, 08 February 2012 - 02:54 PM.

[jbg]

Right... but.... it still doesn't work. The problem is that there is no way to isolate religion (eg. Christianity) as a cause of bad behaviour. So the example means nothing to the big picture. Even asking for the example is a step into illogic, since the example would prove nothing...

I don't think religion is the entire problem. I think a lot of it is the cultures that the various religions overlay. Islam developed in the deserts. Even pre-Islam these areas were dangerous places. Places such as Carthage, Sodom and Gomorrah, and groups such as the Philistines, Amelkites, and Jebusites, and similar warring tribes throughout much of the area bracketed by what is now Pakistan to Morocco were the scenes of unremitting warfare, child sacrifice and animal worship, sex and abuse. The Israelites were a little better though hardly perfect as, from time to time, was Persia and Egypt. It is against this background that Islam developed.

Islam's original function was to reduce internecine bloodshed among these tribes. To that extent, by eliminating rival, corporeal "G-ds" and creating monotheism Islam's development was constructive. The problem was that the religion couldn't tame, or be expected to tame, the warrior instincts. To some extent, over the years, that instinct has become engrafted into at least certain strains of Islam. Whether the problem is a cultural or religious one is irrelevant to people on the 90th floor of a pair of skyscrapers in New York City.

[DogOnPorch]

When they had civil authority.

When and where? There's a general 4 digit number (or less) that we use to describe what year an event took place. Where should be self evident.

Good for them. The girl guides can have selling cookies front and center too. The point is that religious people in the west (not just Christians) behave better, both because they live in a more structured society with a massive security apparatus to crush them if they step out of line, and because they have no authority.

Behaving better than what?