176 replies to this topic

[Scotty]

So you look at one portion of the federal budget alone and think it's comparable? The first nations have to cover everything with that money. Not just building new housing. They need to cover municipal, provincial, and federal expenditures... and not just housing.

I suppose it's too much to expect them to say, get a job and contribute something to their communities, huh?

[cybercoma]

I suppose it's too much to expect them to say, get a job and contribute something to their communities, huh?

That's a pretty racist thing to say. You think because a person is Aboriginal they're unemployed. Nice.

[msj]

No, they very rarely do that. When they do, they are racists and interfering in self govt initiatives. They are not welcome unless ebaring money.

With the exception of the recent case in Ontario, no one ever hears about a band who is in remediation.

Once again - how would you know when all you hear is what is in the media? Which is nothing.

I don't blame the First Nations at all for this, the quality of DIAND mgmt is frightful for the reason I explained earlier in the thread. I know you audit bands, but auditors just make sure everything adds up to zero.

Yes, it is a financial audit. Nevertheless, reports are filed with the government. They know what the money is being spent on - water infrastructure, sewer, health, etc... They can and do use that information.

Not very well, perhaps, but they do use it much more than people realize.

[charter.rights]

No consequences?

Why do you think INAC/DAAND send in their own people when things go south?

They take control, set up remediation, and set the financial ship right (or, at least, improve things).

That's a myth.

When reserves get put into third party management, the third party managers triple the FN budget and put them so far into debt that they won't be out of third party management for 15 to 20 years. The reality is the managers end up proving that the feds are deliberately underfunding the FN since with all their expertise they can't make things any better.

[msj]

That's a myth.

When reserves get put into third party management, the third party managers triple the FN budget and put them so far into debt that they won't be out of third party management for 15 to 20 years. The reality is the managers end up proving that the feds are deliberately underfunding the FN since with all their expertise they can't make things any better.

Then I guess the times that I have seen it being successful was just a fluke.

[Moonlight Graham]

All kidding aside, when the government fails to honour its Constitutional agreements and people's Rights, then an uprising is exactly what needs to happen.

But a non-violent one. There is no suitable justification for violence, unless it's a last resort. And I don't see tens of thousands of natives engaging in civil disobedience, so they aren't at "last resort" stage yet.

It worked for India.

They've jailed a heck of a lot of natives, but they can't jail them all. Or maybe that's why the CPC is making more prison space?

Edited by Moonlight Graham, 24 January 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[charter.rights]

Then I guess the times that I have seen it being successful was just a fluke.

How about point to any First Nation where you ~think~ third party management has been successful. Chances are it is a myth also upon closer examination.

[charter.rights]

But a non-violent one. There is no suitable justification for violence, unless it's a last resort. And I don't see tens of thousands of natives engaging in civil disobedience, so they aren't at "last resort" stage yet.

It worked for India.

They've jailed a heck of a lot of natives, but they can't jail them all. Or maybe that's why the CPC is making more prison space?

However....when we combine native injustice with unresolved homelessness issues, increasing poverty, disproportionate wealth, increasing police state etc, then we have the makings of a revolution - that kind that incensed and angry mobs would burn the parliament buildings over. That can be justified as a civil remedy for failing government.

[Bryan]

However....when we combine native injustice with unresolved homelessness issues, increasing poverty, disproportionate wealth, increasing police state etc, then we have the makings of a revolution - that kind that incensed and angry mobs would burn the parliament buildings over. That can be justified as a civil remedy for failing government.

No it can't. Getting off your asses and running in and voting in elections are the only justified actions as a civil remedy for failing government. You get the governance you deserve.

[charter.rights]

No it can't. Getting off your asses and running in and voting in elections are the only justified actions as a civil remedy for failing government. You get the governance you deserve.

Civil disobedience is as important to a functioning democracy as elections. The means to real in errant politicians lies with "The People" through such action.

[Topaz]

Finally just maybe the FN can have a better future IF the PM keep his promise to the FN people and I have to say the PM did the right thing by staying longer and talking to the chiefs. Lets hope this is not another false promise that has been made to the FN. Everyone knows education is the root that grows power for any Canadian and I wonder when the FN children do go on with a education, will the non-native community hire these people or come up with an excuse not to? If we want them to take care of themselves then the non-native community has to do their part and hire them. Don't say business can't do that its against the law but its also against the law for not hire someone because of their age, and we all knows that goes on too.

[msj]

How about point to any First Nation where you ~think~ third party management has been successful. Chances are it is a myth also upon closer examination.

On Vancouver Island I know of one where it no doubt has led to a success.

In another case, the threat led to a change in leadership/management which led to success.

But I'm not going to discuss specific bands for confidentiality purposes.

[Smallc]

Oh god, don't say that. Confidentiality apparently isn't an excuse here.

And I will say this - things are different for reserves depending on whic treaty they are part of, and if they're part of one.

Edited by Smallc, 25 January 2012 - 08:23 AM.

[msj]

Oh god, don't say that. Confidentiality apparently isn't an excuse here.

And I will say this - things are different for reserves depending on whic treaty they are part of, and if they're part of one.

Fair comment.

In BC we are talking about few treaties so the rules are probably unique compared to Ontario.

As for confidentiality - that is the proof of there being consequences to third party management.

There is still shame in letting one's band get to this point that no one wants to name any names.

[cybercoma]

But a non-violent one. There is no suitable justification for violence, unless it's a last resort. And I don't see tens of thousands of natives engaging in civil disobedience, so they aren't at "last resort" stage yet.

It worked for India.

They've jailed a heck of a lot of natives, but they can't jail them all. Or maybe that's why the CPC is making more prison space?

When people have nothing left to lose, it will be violent and justifiably so.