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Caterpillar to close London, Ont. locomotive plant


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#31 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:12 PM

Many people just lost their jobs and you're laughing about it? I think you need to take a hard look at your value system.



I think they needed to start looking for new jobs instead of whining about it.

Economics trumps Virtue.

 

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#32 Boges

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:38 PM

Many people just lost their jobs and you're laughing about it? I think you need to take a hard look at your value system.


Actually I'm laughing at the idea of a Re-deployment provision. (see the Toronto Labour situation)

I made that post before I realized what was being proposed. You can't expect people making $34/hour which I do think is a bloated wage to go down to $16. I don't blame the union for not bending to these demands.

It's clear CAT's motive was to close the plant in the first place.

#33 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:57 PM

...It's clear CAT's motive was to close the plant in the first place.



Right...so why so much CAW drama? Plants open and close all the time. Some union members become insulated from reality by their contracts.

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#34 PIK

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 01:13 PM

Actually I'm laughing at the idea of a Re-deployment provision. (see the Toronto Labour situation)

I made that post before I realized what was being proposed. You can't expect people making $34/hour which I do think is a bloated wage to go down to $16. I don't blame the union for not bending to these demands.

It's clear CAT's motive was to close the plant in the first place.

The unions knew that when they vote against the contract, is was over. So now instead of making 16.50 a hour, untill they found something else, they are now making 0.
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#35 Boges

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:32 PM

The unions knew that when they vote against the contract, is was over. So now instead of making 16.50 a hour, untill they found something else, they are now making 0.


There's a difference between giving back a few dollars an hour and a few of the generous bennies you were used to and cutting your salary in half. The morale for even the best workers would have been horrible.

#36 punked

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 04:37 PM

The unions knew that when they vote against the contract, is was over. So now instead of making 16.50 a hour, untill they found something else, they are now making 0.

Wrong they will get EI and make more then they would have if they took salary cut, until they all find new jobs which pay more then Caterpillar was going to pay them. You only wish we lived in a system where if an employer decides to leave the employees starve.

#37 Boges

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 05:27 PM

Wrong they will get EI and make more then they would have if they took salary cut, until they all find new jobs which pay more then Caterpillar was going to pay them. You only wish we lived in a system where if an employer decides to leave the employees starve.


One would hope they'll get a decent package as well.

I seriously doubt that, unless they have some specialized trade skills, they'd get similar paying jobs. In Ontario anyway.

#38 waldo

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:10 AM

The unions knew that when they vote against the contract, is was over. So now instead of making 16.50 a hour, untill they found something else, they are now making 0.

rubbish! The "offer" to cut wages... and benefits... in half was an effective move by Caterpillar to close the plant.

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#39 waldo

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:10 AM

Right...so why so much CAW drama? Plants open and close all the time. Some union members become insulated from reality by their contracts.

what you call drama is back-dropped against the failed ICA handling by Harper Conservatives. Caterpillar could have saved the real drama, it's drama, by refusing to accept ICA worker protection constraints upon it's purchase of the plant... they could have shut the plant down right then and there. Of course, that would have meant Harper Conservatives actually stepped up for workers protection... as opposed to giving Caterpillar tax breaks and a direct $5 million subsidy.

alternatively, the prevailing view of many is that to capture the ultimate sale, the equity firms selling to Caterpillar would simply have absorbed the relatively "mice nuts" costs impact that ICA worker protection would have meant. Caterpillar would have proceeded with the purchase, equity firms would have absorbed the additional costs associated with an ICA decision that included worker protection measures, and London would have a plant and London workers would have jobs with decent representative wages/benefits. Yes, thank you Harper Conservatives... thank you very much.

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#40 scribblet

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 06:03 AM

Article

There is a lot of venom being spewed towards Harper, but I think we have to break this problem down. I find big unions (CUPE, CAW) do not have a relationship with an executive branch of a company. In the London Ont. case, I don't know what was said when EMD was being taken over by CAT. Did the union stop and say, "is this the best idea, what will CAT do, what are they after?".
------------------------------------------------------------.

The tax breaks were offered by the government to companies buying locomotives from EMD as well as a general tax break. This was either not enough to keep them around or as I said before, CAT had other intentions.


Agree about the venom being spewed towards Harper when in fact, the tax breaks where on industrial capital investment which would affect numerous companies, not just EMD, how would the gov't single out and exempt one company, or demand breaks be given back !! The '$5 million they go on about was a tax break for purchasers, not EMD itself, so for those demanding the money be given back, how would they do that, under what law, what legislation. And it really is a provincial problem, not federal.

Caterpillar is moving because the U.S. is replacing their rail engines and their American First policy requires that they be built in the U.S., plus there are tax incentives from the State which gave Caterpillar the motivation to move. Did Caterpillar know this when they bought EMD, not sure but I think the new policy came after.

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#41 MiddleClassCentrist

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:10 AM

Article

I saw this coming from a distance. CAT wanted to get the concessions and they didn't, so they will now close the plant and move it.

There is a lot of venom being spewed towards Harper, but I think we have to break this problem down. I find big unions (CUPE, CAW) do not have a relationship with an executive branch of a company. In the London Ont. case, I don't know what was said when EMD was being taken over by CAT. Did the union stop and say, "is this the best idea, what will CAT do, what are they after?".

We have to go back to the laws that govern international take-overs and what provisions are in place to keep jobs in Canada.

Was the EMD plant a poor performer compared to other divisions of CAT?

Was CAT being offered incentives by US states to move the plant or set up a similar operation?

You obviously can't make a company stay in Canada if they want to move.

The tax breaks were offered by the government to companies buying locomotives from EMD as well as a general tax break. This was either not enough to keep them around or as I said before, CAT had other intentions.


Solution: Force the sale of the plant, not the closure :)

It's ridiculous that we allow corporations to operate on a scorched earth policy, closing plants rather than risking more competition and innovation.
Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies. Modern conservatives don't follow reason, they don't analyse the situation, they make up an ideological solution and then attempt cram that solution into a problem that doesn't exist.

#42 MiddleClassCentrist

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:11 AM

Apparently these workers made $34/hour. In London, Ontario that pretty close to rich.

http://www.thestar.c...plant-in-london

Companies certainly don't need Unions.


GE Workers make similar for the same job.

Just saying :)
Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies. Modern conservatives don't follow reason, they don't analyse the situation, they make up an ideological solution and then attempt cram that solution into a problem that doesn't exist.

#43 MiddleClassCentrist

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:14 AM

You're safe, as long as you don't demand artifically high wages and benefits of which can't be supported by the work that you do. It's just common sense. Which I realized hasn't been part of unions for a long time.



GE, Caterpillar's main competitor in the field, pay's it's workers similar wages (average $30/hour) for the same tasks.

But, continue on with your quest to destroy the working middle class. You are just a wannabe 1% and it'll come around to you eventually.
Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies. Modern conservatives don't follow reason, they don't analyse the situation, they make up an ideological solution and then attempt cram that solution into a problem that doesn't exist.

#44 MiddleClassCentrist

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:16 AM

I think they needed to start looking for new jobs instead of whining about it.


I didn't know that you were incapable of performing two tasks at once.

The more you know.
Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies. Modern conservatives don't follow reason, they don't analyse the situation, they make up an ideological solution and then attempt cram that solution into a problem that doesn't exist.

#45 Topaz

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:21 AM

Topaz, I thought the Auto Pact was long because of the World Trade Organization declared it illegal.

Here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia....ducts_Agreement

"The Auto Pact was abolished in 2001 after a World Trade Organization ruling declared it illegal, though by that time the North American Free Trade Agreement had effectively superseded it."

Now as far as I knew, Harris did not run the World Trade Organization. I also always thought that NAFTA was a federal agreement between Ottawa and the USA.

Still, I could be all wrong. Wiki too! They've been criticized before for being inaccurate sometimes.

Perhaps you could explain to me in more detail how Harris is at fault.

If things get too tiring you can checkout this youtube clip:




My answer that Harris cancelled it because, I remember it being mentioned on the new back when Harris was Premier and it said he let the Auto Pact go and did not renew it. IF I'm wrong blame the news.



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