I am a partisan, I was a member of the Ontario PC Party when John Tory was leader. As a pro PC Partisan, I am waiting for another moderate leader so I can rejoin the party.
Then why don't you just vote liberal?
Ontario - Hudak holds onto PC Leadership
Started by MiddleClassCentrist, Feb 12 2012 05:44 AM
26 replies to this topic
#16
Wild Bill
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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:56 PM
Then why don't you just vote liberal?
"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."
-- George Bernard Shaw
"There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
-- George Bernard Shaw
"There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
#17
TheNewTeddy
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Posted 15 February 2012 - 04:18 AM
The Ontario Liberals are at the bottom of my voting totem pole. Last election I was going to vote Green, but ended up voting NDP.
I'd never vote for the federal NDP however, they are at the bottom of my federal totem pole. I'm a member of the federal Liberals, but in the last election, I voted Green.
I'd never vote for the federal NDP however, they are at the bottom of my federal totem pole. I'm a member of the federal Liberals, but in the last election, I voted Green.
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#18
Wild Bill
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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:02 AM
The Ontario Liberals are at the bottom of my voting totem pole. Last election I was going to vote Green, but ended up voting NDP.
I'd never vote for the federal NDP however, they are at the bottom of my federal totem pole. I'm a member of the federal Liberals, but in the last election, I voted Green.
Well, as an old guy who has been observing these parties since he was a kid, I see precious little difference in real world approach and philosophy between the provincial Liberals and the Red Tory wing of the Ontario PC Party.
Hudak and his handlers seem to be trying to have it BOTH ways! They wish to appear like Harris to those who voted for Harris and want to be "not at all like Harris but still different from those Liberals!" to all the other voters!
This is precisely the sort of thing that Harris ran AGAINST! Politicians are held in such contempt because they are like pop music, all sizzle and no steak, all symbolism and no substance. They will be whatever will win some votes, changing like a chameleon even when walking from one side of a small room to the other.
Harris took a stand! He was what he was and made no apologies for it! Voters responded overwhelmingly.
Ever since, no other Ontario politician has even come close!
"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."
-- George Bernard Shaw
"There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
-- George Bernard Shaw
"There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
#19
TheNewTeddy
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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:17 PM
I agree that the OLP and Red OPC are identical, but at least one has integrity.
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#20
MiddleClassCentrist
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Posted 18 February 2012 - 07:24 AM
So for some to claim that Ontario rejected the Harris style of government is a bogus statement. Ontarioans were never given that choice!
I will agree that its perfectly possible that they would, if given that choice again. Or they might once again embrace it!
Anyone who claims they can speak with certitude on an untested premise is running on partisan faith and not reason.
I find it kind of amusing that people think they weren't right wing enough...
When you are the only right wing party... you aren't going to lose right wing votes to centrists and leftists.
Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies. Modern conservatives don't follow reason, they don't analyse the situation, they make up an ideological solution and then attempt cram that solution into a problem that doesn't exist.
#21
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Posted 18 February 2012 - 07:27 AM
I agree that the OLP and Red OPC are identical, but at least one has integrity.
If People believed that this PC party was going to be a RED PC party, maybe they would have won.
It's the fear that they are too far right wing crazy that keeps people away.
Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies. Modern conservatives don't follow reason, they don't analyse the situation, they make up an ideological solution and then attempt cram that solution into a problem that doesn't exist.
#22
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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:34 AM
This.If People believed that this PC party was going to be a RED PC party, maybe they would have won.
It's the fear that they are too far right wing crazy that keeps people away.
Leslie Frost was the best Premier we ever had. Today, the politicos will tell you that you can have either or, subways or highways, etc. Frost not only built the subway, but he built the 401, and brought in human rights on the side. Frost did things in the 50's we can't do today. We need another Leslie Frost.
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#23
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Posted 21 February 2012 - 09:05 AM
I find it kind of amusing that people think they weren't right wing enough...
When you are the only right wing party... you aren't going to lose right wing votes to centrists and leftists.
Well, I guess it depends upon what you call right wing, or left wing. Over the years the centre seems to have drifted, at least for some.
That being said, you're right that if there is only one "right wing" party you aren't going to lose votes from that demographic. Still, that is only true as long as that kind of situation lasts.
Back in Mulroney's day, the PCs of that time had exactly the same attitude. They even had a term for it - "disenfranchised conservative", meaning a conservative voter that didn't really like their party but had no other alternative for his vote.
That kind of attitude had worked for generations in politics but times had changed. It wasn't that long after all the social changes of the 60's and early 70's. People were demanding more participation in the political process and were no longer as willing to just put their faith in a party and let it do whatever it wanted to do.
As I said, the system had been working until enough people got frustrated to the point of forming their own alternative party. At that point, they garnered support faster than a club posting a "Free Beer!" sign! Reform took literally millions of voters away from the PCs, including almost all of their campaign riding "grunt" workers, who had always did all the work of raising money, manning phones and banging up election signs but were summarily blown away whenever they wanted to be included on any policy or leadership decisions.
If you force people to support you by limiting their choices sooner or later they will figure out what you've done. At that point, they may not be able to do anything about it but they will slowly get more and more resentful. If someone comes along with another choice they will steal that support away from you in the twinkling of an eye!
It happened before. It can happen again. Harper seems to have forgotten that. Hudak had best remember the example!
"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."
-- George Bernard Shaw
"There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
-- George Bernard Shaw
"There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
#24
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Posted 21 February 2012 - 08:30 PM
I'd not be opposed to a provincial Reform Alliance, or, another federal one.
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#25
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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:39 AM
McDalton got a second shot so I think Hudak probably should.
John Tory would have gotten another chance if he picked ridings he could win a seat in.
And yes his platform wasn't Right-wing enough. The Drummond Report is going to make Hudak's platform look leftist in comparison.
John Tory: The only thing Conservative about him is last name!
#26
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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:59 AM
John Tory: The only thing Conservative about him is last name!
An excellent example to prove my point! The PCs thought he was a good candidate because the real conservatives would have no other choice and the Red Tories would see that he really wasn't a Conservative anyway!
"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."
-- George Bernard Shaw
"There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
-- George Bernard Shaw
"There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
#27
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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:21 AM
An excellent example to prove my point! The PCs thought he was a good candidate because the real conservatives would have no other choice and the Red Tories would see that he really wasn't a Conservative anyway!
When he got his radio show I listened a few times but not anymore. All I heard was a know-it-all, whiner who blamed everyone else for what is happening. He had advice for everyone, no matter who they were, "what he should so is....a blowhard
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