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Majority of Canadians support death penalty


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#31 Wild Bill

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:53 PM

So if the majority of people believe that all Jews should be rounded up and thrown into gas chambers, you would consider that right or ethical because it's the will of the people?


No, I would NOT consider that "right or ethical". I would consider it democratic! There's a big difference!

First off, I consider your comparison so unlikely as to be almost impossible. Even Hitler kept his Final Solution largely secret even from the German people, who never got to vote on much of anything let alone gas chambers under Hitler's regime. It's much more likely that if the German people HAD a populist government at the time those gas chambers would never have been built!

Clearly, it was a LACK of populism that let the minority view of Hitler's prevail! I think you are supporting MY argument here, CC!

Even so, if Canada ever had a referendum or whatever to do such a terrible thing I would not oppose it as a matter of politics.

I would just get a gun and take a stand myself!

That being said, in such an extreme example such as yours I have no doubt that Canada would be making a mistake of horrendous proportions and would thus learn a horrendous lesson.

Have you got any examples more geared to the real world?

Edited by Wild Bill, 26 February 2012 - 02:56 PM.

"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."

-- George Bernard Shaw


"There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."

#32 Michael Hardner

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:58 PM


Have you got any examples more geared to the real world?


What if they made it illegal for religions to advertise on television or to recruit new members ? Does that seem more likely ? What if a government moved to disallow immigrants from certain religions from entering Canada ?

#33 cybercoma

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:00 PM

My point is that democratic does not always mean right or ethical.

#34 punked

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:01 PM

Just pointing out the civil rights act in the US would never have passed a majority vote.

#35 Wild Bill

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:11 PM

What if they made it illegal for religions to advertise on television or to recruit new members ? Does that seem more likely ? What if a government moved to disallow immigrants from certain religions from entering Canada ?


Again, while I might personally disagree it would at least be democratic, assuming the new Law clearly came about as a result of a majority view of the people.

Obviously, that can't be the case now or we would have the death penalty still on the books! There would be no polls showing so many people wanting it returned.

With your examples Michael, this would be an example of the people learning from mistakes! Under our present system of non-populist elitism, they are not allowed to make such mistakes. Worse yet, since the Laws at times can represent the minority views of an elite they can make worse mistakes, such as the tyranny of Human Rights Commissions, where a citizen can be unfairly charged and given zero financial help for his defense while his accuser can lie with impunity and have his side fully funded!

To me, these cases are as bad as executing an innocent man! If someone is unfairly charged, we don't hang him. We just destroy him financially and publicly so his life will never likely be positive again!

I have enough faith in my fellow citizens to believe that if given the direct power they would never allow such inequities to have the force of law.
"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."

-- George Bernard Shaw


"There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."

#36 Wild Bill

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:14 PM

Just pointing out the civil rights act in the US would never have passed a majority vote.


Are you sure? At that time or forever? In the entire USA or just in a few cracker states?

With all the riots and racial strife going on, do you think a majority would have voted to let it continue?

Or do you believe that the majority of Americans at the time were evil and would rather have died than allow racial equality? How do you know if the majority at the time WANTED equal rights and the crackers were in the minority?

If you have anything to prove your premise I'd be interested in seeing it.
"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."

-- George Bernard Shaw


"There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."

#37 punked

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:19 PM

Are you sure? At that time or forever? In the entire USA or just in a few cracker states?

With all the riots and racial strife going on, do you think a majority would have voted to let it continue?

Or do you believe that the majority of Americans at the time were evil and would rather have died than allow racial equality? How do you know if the majority at the time WANTED equal rights and the crackers were in the minority?

If you have anything to prove your premise I'd be interested in seeing it.

I am sure. The latest polling TODAY says only 58 % of Americans support the civil rights act.

#38 Guest_American Woman_*

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:28 PM

I am sure. The latest polling TODAY says only 58 % of Americans support the civil rights act.

What are you talking about? Even in the 60's the majority supported the Civil Rights Act.

#39 punked

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:35 PM

What are you talking about? Even in the 60's the majority supported the Civil Rights Act.

Again even today only 58% of American support the Civil rights act. Gallup polled MLK's I have a dream speech in 65 I think at the time half of American disagreed with it while only 30% supported or something like that. You can a rosy view of American, they always do the right thing, however it is never popular to do anything.

#40 g_bambino

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:37 PM

I would consider it democratic!

It's democracy as ochlocracy, otherwise known as tyranny of the majority.

#41 Michael Hardner

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:37 PM

With your examples Michael, this would be an example of the people learning from mistakes! Under our present system of non-populist elitism, they are not allowed to make such mistakes. Worse yet, since the Laws at times can represent the minority views of an elite they can make worse mistakes, such as the tyranny of Human Rights Commissions, where a citizen can be unfairly charged and given zero financial help for his defense while his accuser can lie with impunity and have his side fully funded!


But the legal model we use now is itself a product of learning from mistakes. It doesn't allow the population to pass laws that contravene constitutional rights.

Why plan for the people to learn from their mistakes but not the courts ? Who is more likely to learn from their mistakes ?

#42 g_bambino

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:40 PM

But the legal model we use now is itself a product of learning from mistakes.

True. The dangers of the mobile vulgus (from where we get the word "mob"), or fickle crowd, was known to the Ancient Greeks.

#43 Guest_American Woman_*

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:41 PM

Again even today only 58% of American support the Civil rights act.

Again. What are you talking about?? I see nothing to back up this claim.

Gallup polled MLK's I have a dream speech in 65 I think at the time half of American disagreed with it while only 30% supported or something like that.

"Something like that," eh? You do realize that MLK's speach and the Civil Rights Act are two different things, right? Bottom line, the majority supported it.

You can a rosy view of American, they always do the right thing, however it is never popular to do anything.

I've never said any such thing - and my "view" on this is based on the facts.

Edited by American Woman, 26 February 2012 - 03:41 PM.


#44 Wild Bill

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:41 PM

But the legal model we use now is itself a product of learning from mistakes. It doesn't allow the population to pass laws that contravene constitutional rights.

Why plan for the people to learn from their mistakes but not the courts ? Who is more likely to learn from their mistakes ?


Michael, it still all comes down to who actually decides? The people or someone else?

Who says the people are wrong and that something is moral or right? Who do we trust to make such decisions?

Judges? Who are appointed and not elected? Who are fallible men?

I simply have more confidence in my fellow citizens as a whole than I do with some elitists.
"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul."

-- George Bernard Shaw


"There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."

#45 punked

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:42 PM

Again. What are you talking about?? I see nothing to back up this claim.


"Something like that," eh? You do realize that MLK's speach and the Civil Rights Act are two different things, right? Bottom line, the majority supported it.


I've never said any such thing - and my "view" on this is based on the facts.

When have I ever made a claim that has not been backed up. Again today only 58% of Americans support the Civil rights act. There was even less support for change in 64.

http://publicpolicyp...rights-act.html



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