27 replies to this topic

[jbg]

Just to point out that six of the seven Presidents you mention here did own slaves..."officially."

I don't think Van Buren or Adams owned slaves.

[jacee]

I tend to agree, but unfortunately that ship has already sailed. So I'd rather have the actual facts regarding science and history properly correct the record. Especially since we have a political structure in place that transfers billions of dollars every year under the gise of what looks to be a false historic narrative. If we were all treatd equally, this wouldn't otherwise matter.

It will be interesting to continue to learn more about the history of North America. However, it will not change anything about our current reality - our legal obligations to First Nations.

The Aboriginal and treaty rights recognized by our Constitution are not based on them being the first inhabitants of North America, but on the fact that they were here before us.

I'm not the first inhabitant of my house, but anyone else who wants to move in has to make an agreement with me, and it will cost them money.

Same principle.

Give it up Shady. It's a non-starter.

But continue the quest for information. It's intriguing.

Edited by jacee, 18 March 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[jbg]

But here as I pointed out 95% of the FN population died just as colonization was getting under way. 5% of the population doesn't get 100% of the land. There have been movements of peoples throughout history. Get used to it.

[jacee]

But here as I pointed out 95% of the FN population died just as colonization was getting under way. 5% of the population doesn't get 100% of the land. There have been movements of peoples throughout history. Get used to it.

I'm not commenting on the US situation as I'm not familiar with the legalities there.

In Canada though, the treaties stand.

[jbg]

I'm not commenting on the US situation as I'm not familiar with the legalities there.

In Canada though, the treaties stand.

My statement had nothing to do with treaties.

[BC_chick]

But here as I pointed out 95% of the FN population died just as colonization was getting under way. 5% of the population doesn't get 100% of the land.

They're the remaining members, why wouldn't they be entitled to it?

[bleeding heart]

I don't think Van Buren or Adams owned slaves.

Adams didn't...that's why I said "six of the seven."

Edited by bleeding heart, 17 April 2012 - 03:35 AM.

[jbg]

Adams didn't...that's why I said "six of the seven."

That is skewed by the fact that those "six of the seven" hailed from Southern states, all but Andrew Jackson being from Virginia.

[jbg]

They're the remaining members, why wouldn't they be entitled to it?

Population and demographic shifts are perpetual. Or else the Great Rift Valley of Africa would be a mighty crowded place.

[Black Dog]

Other mass migrations are far more modern. As Europe erupted into almost a millennium of bloody warfare, people first explored the Orient and then, more or less by accident, happened upon the Americas. Smallpox did the job that armies could not have done in decimating the native populations in both the Americas and Australia. This did not happen in Asia or Africa since the joined continents fostered partial immunity from those diseases.

And what smallpox didn't get, the Seventh Cavalry tried to. It's amazing how many people seem unaware of the fact that the genocide of the American aboriginal population was a matter of policy based on the white supremacist beliefs of the day.

[cybercoma]

Adams didn't...that's why I said "six of the seven."

You need to be careful not to use modern values to judge the past. They weren't bad people simply because they held slaves.

[bleeding heart]

You need to be careful not to use modern values to judge the past. They weren't bad people simply because they held slaves.

I agree (though I would add that anti-slavery moral sentiment was alive and flourishing in their times, even in Washington's; so it's not as if they were doing something uncontroversial).

At any rate, it's irrelevant, as I wasn't making an anachronistic judgement; I was responding directly to this:

I agree with you, Hungarians were never OFFICIALLY slaves. But just go ahead and ask anyone who managed to escape the Soviet yoke if they would ever consider themselves slaves, under Stalin.

I don't know about you, but Jefferson, Adams, Washington, Madison, Monroe,Jackson and van Buren sounds a heck of a lot friendlier than Lenin and Stalin.

Since he brought up slavery, and then performed the conventional piety of implying the inherent moral magnificence of the American Founders....I thought it an apt response.

Edited by bleeding heart, 17 April 2012 - 08:20 AM.

[jbg]

And what smallpox didn't get, the Seventh Cavalry tried to. It's amazing how many people seem unaware of the fact that the genocide of the American aboriginal population was a matter of policy based on the white supremacist beliefs of the day.

I'm not saying the policies weren't horrific. I'm saying that General Smallpox did more damage than the Seventh Cavalry.