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#16 MACKER

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 12:43 AM

Do you make your own clothes? Grow your own food? Did you build your home from the ground up? What if a family member requires medical attention, would you perform an operation within your own home?

Yes. :) But if it is really dirty maybe outdoors. People die get over it and stop denile.

Social Autarky is not the same as individual self provisioning.

Social Autarky is about economic planning so as to be able to provide for societies needs. Not as a command economy but as a mixed economy with command economy characteristics for management of resources and production that arn't be met by domestic production.

That is another issue, millions of dollars to keep people alive. We need to be sane and understand spending millions on keeping people alive is a waste of resources. People die get over it. You'll be together again if you've been together this long. Time flys, and so can you.

Edited by MACKER, 11 March 2012 - 12:47 AM.


#17 Derek L

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 12:47 AM

Yes. :) But if it is really dirty maybe outdoors. People die get over it and stop denile.

Social Autarky is not the same as individual self provisioning.

Social Autarky is about economic planning so as to be able to provide for societies needs. Not as a command economy but as a mixed economy with command economy characteristics for management of resources and production that arn't be met by domestic production.

That is another issue, millions of dollars to keep people alive. We need to be sane and understand spending millions on keeping people alive is a waste of resources.



But why the difference between a self sufficient society versus self sufficient individuals? Surely if your one proposed position in ideal, wouldn’t self sufficient individuals be even further beneficial?
The income tax created more criminals than any other single act of government.
-Barry Goldwater-

Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk. Not enough people see it as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon.
-Winston Churchill-

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
-Ronald Reagan-

#18 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 12:47 AM

Well if we are going to target import markets we'd have to make domestic PEZ.. CEZ.



But it wouldn't be PEZ. And it wouldn't be an iPad. And it wouldn't be a Ford F-150.


Plus American would love to keep their crap.


Nope....remember, American wouldn't matter anymore....you would be on your own. Good luck with that.
Economics trumps Virtue.
"Access to a wait list is not Access to healthcare" - Chief Justice Beverly McLauchlin

#19 Derek L

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 12:50 AM

But it wouldn't be PEZ. And it wouldn't be an iPad. And it wouldn't be a Ford F-150.


That was clearly going to be my next point.......What if the people want American pick-ups, Japanese computers and South American coffee? Do you stop them? ;)

Edited by Derek L, 11 March 2012 - 12:51 AM.

The income tax created more criminals than any other single act of government.
-Barry Goldwater-

Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk. Not enough people see it as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon.
-Winston Churchill-

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
-Ronald Reagan-

#20 j44

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 12:51 AM

Juche?

#21 Derek L

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 12:53 AM

Juche?


Indeed..You could always invent the Cheeseburger and Ipod for the people……all the well having a perfect score on your first try at the new game you invented…..Golf ;)
The income tax created more criminals than any other single act of government.
-Barry Goldwater-

Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk. Not enough people see it as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon.
-Winston Churchill-

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
-Ronald Reagan-

#22 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 12:55 AM

That was clearly going to be my next point.......What if the people want American pick-ups, Japanese computers and South American coffee? Do you stop them? ;)



Yes....Canadians would have to choose between Lada or Trabant.
Economics trumps Virtue.
"Access to a wait list is not Access to healthcare" - Chief Justice Beverly McLauchlin

#23 MACKER

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 12:56 AM

But why the difference between a self sufficient society versus self sufficient individuals? Surely if your one proposed position in ideal, wouldn’t self sufficient individuals be even further beneficial?


Socialism.


Oh rather. When people work together, they can accomplish more than they can as an individual. That is why companies form and prosper.


Sure it is a better ideal, but there are efficiency models, because some tasks are better suited, take the model T for example the first assembly lines.

The corporation is basically a segment of a socialistic society. Monopolies likewise can take that a step further, another form of socialism.


Yes definitely people should manage certain personal tasks, like having a bath, going to the washroom, putting food in their mouth. But only one person needs to serve the table... there is only so much room to move around in the kitchen.

If an efficient way of harvesting wood is possible then waste in wood cutting can be reduced. If we know how much wood we need to heat our homes we can figure out how to manage our forests so we don't freeze.

Since it is not just me or you that needs to survive it s also our wives and children, and perhaps our children are married to one another it is our family no matter how we look at it.

Some areas of the economy can benefit from a command economy, while others are hindered by controls.
As there is a needs based economy and an artificial economy. Control of the artificial economy is not required because it is waste, but control of the needs economy is required. Sometimes the economies will mix, and this is when a mixed economy is useful.

But back to your point of backwoods doin it. For sure, but few men are islands.

You are correct though, it is an ideal, but social isolationism is problematic for building a society.. even if it helps maintain one. There is a line that needs to be managed between a community and community service.


So only to the extent that it creates a better society. We need to encourage good will and cooperation because there are finite resources that we must share, if we are to be humane and not just execute our competition for resources and wealth. True it would be more efficient to do that and it would lower the debt if people we owed money to were targeted for execution, but that model is problematic due to us being "good" people. We might need to re-engineer our social values to escape that paradigm.

#24 Derek L

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 12:57 AM

Yes....Canadians would have to choose between Lada or Trabant.


Or this:





;)
The income tax created more criminals than any other single act of government.
-Barry Goldwater-

Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk. Not enough people see it as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon.
-Winston Churchill-

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
-Ronald Reagan-

#25 MACKER

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:02 AM

That was clearly going to be my next point.......What if the people want American pick-ups, Japanese computers and South American coffee? Do you stop them? ;)



NO that would be wrong, you just make sure that people can't afford them.


Just kidding of course people are free to buy what they want.

However for the poverty elimination programs people would buy Canadian eat from local coop gardens etc..

The government would BUY CANADIAN etc.. just like the Americans do.

It is our own municipalities that suggested the program due to the BUY AMERICAN program in the US.


https://www.google.ca/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=buy+american+act&oq=buy+america&aq=1&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=24180l24788l7l26432l7l4l0l3l3l1l135l423l2.2l7l0&gs_l=hp.3.1.0l4.24180l24788l7l26432l7l4l0l3l3l1l135l423l2j2l7l0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=8a31f9f17ce08d07&biw=1213&bih=739


http://www1.eere.energy.gov/recovery/buy_american_provision.html

Plus some stuff is hard to buy its not like we are going to take peoples pay checks away.

Actually we'd do nothing of that sort. ON the contrary we would target the poor and unemployed

10% of a 250 billion revenue stream is 25-75 billion in potential untapped productivity.

Edited by MACKER, 11 March 2012 - 01:06 AM.


#26 Derek L

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:05 AM

NO that would be wrong, you just make sure that people can't afford them.


Just kidding of course people are free to buy what they want.

However for the poverty elimination programs people would buy Canadian eat from local coop gardens etc..

The government would BUY CANADIAN etc.. just like the Americans do.

It is our own municipalities that suggested the program due to the BUY AMERICAN program in the US.


https://www.google.ca/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=buy+american+act&oq=buy+america&aq=1&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=3&gs_upl=24180l24788l7l26432l7l4l0l3l3l1l135l423l2.2l7l0&gs_l=hp.3.1.0l4.24180l24788l7l26432l7l4l0l3l3l1l135l423l2j2l7l0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=8a31f9f17ce08d07&biw=1213&bih=739


http://www1.eere.energy.gov/recovery/buy_american_provision.html


Ahh, I see:


The income tax created more criminals than any other single act of government.
-Barry Goldwater-

Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk. Not enough people see it as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon.
-Winston Churchill-

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
-Ronald Reagan-

#27 MACKER

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:09 AM

Ahh, I see:



Russia..
Public debt: 9% of GDP (2010 est.)
8.3% of GDP (2009 est.)


Canada
public debt to GDP 83.5%

That's right Canada's public debt is 10x the the debt to GDP ratio and guess who makes more...


http://www.indexmundi.com/russia/public_debt.html


check out that curve..

They essentially eliminated their debt.. in 10 years...

1999 98.98
2000 59.859 -39.52 %
2001 47.613 -20.46 %
2002 40.305 -15.35 %
2003 30.359 -24.68 %
2004 22.316 -26.49 %
2005 14.24 -36.19 %
2006 9.048 -36.46 %
2007 8.511 -5.94 %
2008 7.876 -7.46 %

Then you wonder why people love KGB PUTIN and the ST. PETERSBURG SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL34512.pdf


check out table 3

Edited by MACKER, 11 March 2012 - 01:19 AM.


#28 dre

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:12 AM

Youth unemployment is "somethiing like 80%"...I've heared it's around 20,which is bad...

You'll have to come up with a link,or something,to prove it's at 80%..

By the way,any ideas on how to cut the deficit?



Stop all spending that doesnt either benefit Canadians, or provide a return on investment.

#29 olpfan1

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:16 AM

That is another issue, millions of dollars to keep people alive. We need to be sane and understand spending millions on keeping people alive is a waste of resources. People die get over it.


Why are you so cold & callous? The minute we stop caring about each others well being is when we stop being human

#30 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:19 AM

They essentially eliminated their debt.. in 10 years...

1999 98.98
2000 59.859 -39.52 %
2001 47.613 -20.46 %
2002 40.305 -15.35 %
2003 30.359 -24.68 %
2004 22.316 -26.49 %
2005 14.24 -36.19 %
2006 9.048 -36.46 %
2007 8.511 -5.94 %
2008 7.876 -7.46 %



What happened to 1998? That was the year their ruble collapsed and Russia defaulted.

Edited by bush_cheney2004, 11 March 2012 - 01:20 AM.

Economics trumps Virtue.
"Access to a wait list is not Access to healthcare" - Chief Justice Beverly McLauchlin



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