762 replies to this topic

[fellowtraveller]

Why would they do that?

Because the current fleet of F-18 is nearing the end of their life cycle.

[dre]

as I recall, that decision rationale was 'outsourced' to the U.S.; i.e., there were no formal requirements defined by the Canadian Forces... requirements that should have been, obviously, tailored specifically to Canadian needs. I would like/relish to be corrected on this.

It would not suprise me but I hope thats not the case.

Maybe we need to start back at square one...

1. Define our requirements.
2. Count our money (establish a fully funded deficit neutral budget)
3. Establish a list of platforms that meet our newly defined requirements.
4. Perform a risk analysis of each option.
5. Perform a cost/benefit analysis of each option.

[Wild Bill]

Why would our government ignore basic common sense procurement methodology and processes that are pretty much universally used in the private sector?

Dr. Dre, my career was mostly selling electronic parts but I did spend a short time at a Westinghouse location as a buyer, in the late 80's/early 90's.

So I had experience buying military parts, DND procedures and requirements and so on.

If you had done the same you would never have asked your question! Coming from a modern and leading edge electronic manufacturing world into that military environment was like growing up working for RIM and then taking a job at General Motors - 1956!

That world is almost incapable of change, because it doesn't have to! Worse yet, for the most part military specs for electronic resistors and such are so obsolete as to ensure quality far BELOW that of typical commercial builds!

When I left, the military was trying to get around the quality issue by mil-spec-ing an entire unit rather than all the parts involved. However, the paperwork and procedure issues as far as I know are still the same.

Things get done but always in the most expensive and time-intensive manner.

[Rocky Road]

scrap the order, save the money.

[dre]

Dr. Dre, my career was mostly selling electronic parts but I did spend a short time at a Westinghouse location as a buyer, in the late 80's/early 90's.

So I had experience buying military parts, DND procedures and requirements and so on.

If you had done the same you would never have asked your question! Coming from a modern and leading edge electronic manufacturing world into that military environment was like growing up working for RIM and then taking a job at General Motors - 1956!

That world is almost incapable of change, because it doesn't have to! Worse yet, for the most part military specs for electronic resistors and such are so obsolete as to ensure quality far BELOW that of typical commercial builds!

When I left, the military was trying to get around the quality issue by mil-spec-ing an entire unit rather than all the parts involved. However, the paperwork and procedure issues as far as I know are still the same.

Things get done but always in the most expensive and time-intensive manner.

Interesting perspective. That pretty much what Im worried about.

[madmax]

As noted, if they don't buy the F-35s, they'll buy something else equally costly. Glad you approve.

you have little faith....

regardless

its time to invest in the ground forces..

[madmax]

Dr. Dre, my career was mostly selling electronic parts but I did spend a short time at a Westinghouse location as a buyer, in the late 80's/early 90's.

So I had experience buying military parts, DND procedures and requirements and so on.

If you had done the same you would never have asked your question! Coming from a modern and leading edge electronic manufacturing world into that military environment was like growing up working for RIM and then taking a job at General Motors - 1956!

That world is almost incapable of change, because it doesn't have to! Worse yet, for the most part military specs for electronic resistors and such are so obsolete as to ensure quality far BELOW that of typical commercial builds!

When I left, the military was trying to get around the quality issue by mil-spec-ing an entire unit rather than all the parts involved. However, the paperwork and procedure issues as far as I know are still the same.

Things get done but always in the most expensive and time-intensive manner.

nothing has changed...good post..

[Smallc]

you have little faith....

regardless

its time to invest in the ground forces..

That's pretty much all we've been doing for the last 10 years. The navy and the airforce have suffered at the expense of equipment needed for the war.

[Derek L]

just where are all those MLW guys who so forcefully and adamantly continued to play out the Harper Conservatives 'F-35 broken record' routine... in the face of any and every critical comment offered, or any and every expressed uncertainty from other countries, or any and every program misstep, etc..

Right here………I haven’t bothered with comment because it’s a non story…………DND already has a cadre of personal associated with the JSF transition…….The Minsters words, if one heard/saw the entire exchange still demonstrated support for the program:

"We have not as yet discounted, the possibility, of course, of backing out of any of the program," Fantino, associate minister of national defence, told the House defence committee Tuesday.




"None of the partners have. We are not. And we’ll just have to think it through further as time goes on, but we are confident that we will not leave Canada or our men and women in uniform in a lurch, but it’s hypothetical to go any further right now."

The reason why those that “play the broken record” aren’t commenting nor claiming the sky is falling is simple……….There’s no alternative aircraft, currently in production or mature design, that will still be in production later this decade………..All other options of earlier generation aircraft (Super Hornet/Viper/Silent Eagle/Eurofighter etc) production lines will be closing in the next several years……….To have a company, like Boeing, restart production of an aircraft after the line has been closed for such a small run, wouldn’t be economically feasible, for them and us………Once the Super Hornet line closes in St Louis, Boeing will begin work on the 6th generation (Super Hornet replacement) and UCAVs.

[Derek L]

It is my understanding that most of the cost overruns and engine issues are largely with the F-35B and F35-C (the STOL and VTOL and carrier models), and will not affect the F35A. If there are significant cost overruns with the conventional takeoff and landing model, it would only make sense to objectively review any cost implications. I'm not sure that being cautious and objective about such a large purchase is putting themselves in danger, although I would agree it does put them in a position of criticism by parties looking to criticize at any and all opportunity.

The “B” is no longer on “probation” and has been conducting sea trial since last year………And both the “B” and “C” are in the process of being handed over to NAVAIR.


Enjoy:

[Derek L]

as I recall, that decision rationale was 'outsourced' to the U.S.; i.e., there were no formal requirements defined by the Canadian Forces... requirements that should have been, obviously, tailored specifically to Canadian needs. I would like/relish to be corrected on this.

Define specific “Canadian Needs”.

[bush_cheney2004]

The “B” is no longer on “probation” and has been conducting sea trial since last year………And both the “B” and “C” are in the process of being handed over to NAVAIR.

I guess some here won't believe that production F-35's actually exist until one of them actually kills something.

[bush_cheney2004]

Define specific “Canadian Needs”.

Canada has purposely defined such needs as "future requirements", not just the replacement of current CF-18 capabilities with new airframes:



http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/pri/2/pro-pro/ngfc-fs-ft/or-bo-eng.asp

Edited by bush_cheney2004, 14 March 2012 - 09:23 PM.

[Derek L]

I guess some here won't believe that production F-35's actually exist until one of them actually kills something.

Indeed or mention the Japanese and destined (For this fall) South Korean selection of the JSF………..With all the experts opining about the Super Bug, makes you wonder why Boeing didn’t submit it instead of the X-32 for the JSF competition……..Or why the Indian’s and the Brazilian’s have found the French offer has better regional offsets then Boeing.

[Derek L]

Canada has purposely defined such needs as "future requirements", not just the replacement of current CF-18 capabilities with new airframes:



http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/pri/2/pro-pro/ngfc-fs-ft/or-bo-eng.asp

Oh, I know them....Clearly our needs, and those of the British, Norwegians, Dutch, Israelis, Japanese, Turks, Italians, Spanish etc are all defined for us by the United States.