123 replies to this topic

[-TSS-]

Spanish is doddle until you get to the subjunctive. The very idea of subjunctive is just so alien to anyone not speaking a Romance language that it really takes some coping when learning. I Hve myself studied Spanish and I love the language but the subjunctive is still a pain.

[Argus]

Am I sensing some bitterness?

You're sensing some reality.

[Argus]

Bilingualism is an asset, it opens up doors for people. It is unfortunate so many people are ignorant and uneducated.

One of the problems for the federal public service is it's absolutely full of utterly incompetent managers and executives who only got their job because the bilingualism requirement screened out more than 95% of those who would otherwise do the work.

There's an old adage of a guy who is drowning in a swimming pool, and calls out for help, but the government life guard on duty can't swim. When asked how he got the job he proudly sticks out his chest and says "I'm bilingual!"

People who do not engage both languages are shirkers of their civic responsibility to build a whole Canada.

That's idiotic. Why would someone who doesn't have any use for French go through the difficulties and expense of learning it? And then once you learn it if you don't have a regular use for it, if your neighbours don't speak it and you don't use it at work, then it fades away anyway. Pointless.

People have the right to engage society as they wish, but it is a failure not to engage all parts of society. French Society is a large part of Canadian Society, alienation of the French is alienation of 1/5th of what makes you Canadian. would you forget to care for 20% of your body, what are you without arms, or a head?

Most of the French are separated from my society anyway. They live in Quebec, a place I never go, and I have no interest in them, nor they in me. Why should I learn their language? Most of them don't even know how to read and write their language properly. And I'm supposed to learn it? Phhht.

[Argus]

Sure, but what else then does official bilingualism mean?

It means all those in leadership positions in the federal public service have to be fluently bilingual before any screening of their actual skills in leadership or job knowledge is even looked at. It means that lots of incompetent clowns get accepted and promoted because there is only a very small group of people capable of passing the language tests.

[Argus]

Let's flip that around then: why does the French language in Canada need government intervention to thrive, if it's not needed anywhere else in the world ?

Even in France they have official agencies to protect their ridiculous complex language. And like Quebecers, they probably don't know how to use it properly either.

The natural purpose of language is communication. All through history as peoples merge, languages merge, and change and die. The English didn't used to speak English. There were separate peoples in Britain and they spoke separate languages. They merged, and now, other than a few holdouts ,they speak English. Yes, the Welsh are working very hard to keep their language, and there are some Celtic speakers in Scotland and Ireland, but again, this is government trying to resist the natural order of things to no purpose but cultural arrogance. Am I poorer now that I speak English rather than whatever my distant relatives spoke? I don't think so. French should die away. It should have died decades ago.

[-TSS-]

Thank you Argus. I'm myself an active opponent to the crazy bilingualism in my own country the supporters of which often point out Canada as a perfect example how bilingualism works.

[MACKER]

Am I right in concluding that French is not at all imposed on people who live in regions where French just is not spoken? That would be a much saner version of language-policies compared to what we have in Finland where the entire country is officially bilingual.

Having said that, I know one can't compare Finland and Canada. It is more relevant to compare Finland and a given Canadian province where both languages exist.

No language is imposed. Association is free in Canada. The courts will provide a translator to those who do not speak English or French, but for those who want government services, they are offered normally in English and French, also all official communications, instructions, laws etc.. are published in English and French. Ignorance of the law however is not an exhoneration of the requirement to uphold the law. Both the English and French versions can be interpreted separately in a legal case, enforcement etc... and no they are not necessarily identical, just similar. Also Quebec uses the Napoleonic Code, not English Common law in Civil courts, and they bring that to the Federal level. WHile each province has slightly different statute, it is more or less the same, Quebec is a little more unique however. http://en.wikipedia...._Code_of_Quebec

People who live in Canada have no obligation to know French or English, but for citizenship they do, need to know atleast one at a basic level. Canada has long (for more than 40 years now,been a strong supporter of multiculturalism and support of ethnic communities, and enhancement of those communities and preservation of their ethnic identities, Canada is not a melting pot, it is a mosaic. You can be what you are in Canada, but arrests of Muslims tends to be more common than others for charges such as terrorism, so there may be some limits to ethnic culture support. Its not just bringing middle eastern customs to Canada, other things like Bigamy are frowned on also, even though they are accepted customs in Non English Common law cultures.

The British were forced to preserve French Culture and Rights (Including preservation and rights for Catholics) as part of the treaty between the French and English in the Seven Years War (French and Indian War). Individual Provinces composed their own constitutions based upon the habitants of those areas. Some areas had a vocal French enfranchisement others did not.

Edited by MACKER, 18 March 2012 - 04:54 PM.

[jbg]

No language is imposed. Association is free in Canada.

And which consumers get the privilege of paying for Canada's unique bi-lingual food container labels? How many shoppers in Edmonton or Chicoutimi need them?

[Benz]

Let's ask about this issue this way: Can you get a university-degree in Canada without knowing any French?

I asked that question because here in Finland you can't get one without knowing Swedish.

yes, you only need to know english or french for a university degree. Not necessarly both at once. The language courses are at elementary and high schools.

Comparing Canada and Finland is a bit odd. Finland is smaller in number than the only french province of Canada. But the biggest difficulties to compare are the languages. Whether it is Sweddish or Finnish, both are used only by Swedden and Finland. Unlike English and French, they are the only two languages in the world to be used on the 5 continents. Although alot of countries use french and are part of the francophonie, english is by far the most used as a secondary language. It became the effective international language, even if officially, there are 6 recognized languages to play that role.

It places the canadians in an extraordinry advantage. The french can learn english, the english can learn french and they both know it would be a win win for every one. The requirements are very weak tho. One only need to handle the very basis to pass. Since english is the most used and you can manage to travel almost every where in the world as an unilingual anglo, learning french doesn't sound as needy for the english canada as it is for the french to learn english. But since it is a great asset for one individual to learn at least a second language, the english canadians should considere themselve lucky to share this land with the french, rather than... let's say, the vietnameses. I don't have anything against them by the way. It's just easier for an anglo to learn french than that language. It also is more useful on the international level. However, some would prefer to learn something else than french because they don't need french and would need sometheng else like spannish. I can understand that because back then, I was not interested to learn english. I would have chosen spannish. But it's not a good idea. A third language shall be optional for the children, not at the expense of the other official language. The schools don't usually offer a third language tho.

Canada is not comparable to Swedden/Finland, where for a Finnish, learning Sweddish is no use outside of Scandinavia. Many of you might be more attracted to learn english or another one depending on what are your interests. I knew about Sweddish being the second language of Finland but, I wasn't aware that it is as far as being required to get a university degree.

On a side note, you'll see some canadians complaining about the presence of the other's language. They are stuck in the past of the residual former british empire and considere the assimilation of the french as an unfinished task.

And yeah, we in Finland are supposed to be one of the least corrupt countries in the world. The very existence of this ridiculous bilingualism we have here proves otherwise.

woah! If that language thing is the worst you can find in Finland, you country is clean as crystal water compared to us. You have no idea how dirty our liberals were and the conservatives trying to do worst. This country is going down and looks like a banana republic once more year after year.

Thank you Argus. I'm myself an active opponent to the crazy bilingualism in my own country the supporters of which often point out Canada as a perfect example how bilingualism works.

You did not understand Argus. He beleives french language should desapear. Do I need to tell you it means your Finnish language should deseapear as well? According to him, neither sweddish, nor finnish should be teach in Finland. Just english. He is the perfect example of the residual former british empire I talked about.

[Benz]

Why should I learn their language? Most of them don't even know how to read and write their language properly. And I'm supposed to learn it? Phhht.

For one, to be less idiot and stop saying stupid things like this:

There's an old adage of a guy who is drowning in a swimming pool, and calls out for help, but the government life guard on duty can't swim. When asked how he got the job he proudly sticks out his chest and says "I'm bilingual!"

[Wild Bill]

There's an old joke my kids used to tell me. Two hunters find some tracks in the bush.

"These are deer tracks!" says the one. "No, they are bear tracks!" says the other.

While they are arguing the train runs over them!

The discussion in this thread about whether English or French is the more useful and preferred language for thriving in today's climate of international trade and progress reminds me of this joke.

Forget about French being a dead language, or English supposedly being the new lingua franca.

Learn Chinese!

[Newfoundlander]

It means all those in leadership positions in the federal public service have to be fluently bilingual before any screening of their actual skills in leadership or job knowledge is even looked at. It means that lots of incompetent clowns get accepted and promoted because there is only a very small group of people capable of passing the language tests.

Not true at all.

[Wild Bill]

The British were forced to preserve French Culture and Rights (Including preservation and rights for Catholics) as part of the treaty between the French and English in the Seven Years War (French and Indian War).

Have you anything to support this idea? I had been taught that the British CHOSE to allow the French to preserve their culture and rights for Catholics!

That was part of the tolerance and wisdom of British governors of those times and leaders. Of course, there were some bigots like Lord Durham but the example of what those British leaders did for the French in Canada was totally unique for those times - an unheard of progressive act.

[g_bambino]

Well, like forcing children to learn the minority language at school...

I don't see what's wrong with teaching children a second language. I was "forced" to learn French in school (though I went to a private school) and am happy for it. Regardless, any parent is free to withdraw their child or children from the Crown-run education system; homeschooling is legal in every province in Canada.

...and society in general working in two languages even though only a miniscule proportion of the population speak the minority-language.

Where in Canada does this even happen, let alone the question of where is it imposed upon people by the state?
[ed.: sp]

Edited by g_bambino, 19 March 2012 - 09:24 AM.

[Peeves]

And by your logic Peeves, Finnish should have long since disappeared.

Such irony. We have a Finn posting here in English and an English Canadian speaks of a dying language.

Bilingualism in Canada? I suspect that TSS is trilingual. He speaks Finnish (with his own accent), he can post in English and loves his sauna.

Will the Finnish language survive? The Finnish people have survived alone against the Russian army, and even the generous Swedes.

----

Peeves, Finland is a member of the EU and uses the euro. Finland: Welcome to the new Quebec.

I seldom resort to logic and rely generally on emotion.

The language of commerce is English. French is soooo passé.
I seldom give much respect the opinion of those that would partake of Montréal poutine or for that matter, of lutefisk actually more akin to saippuakala.