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The Freedom to Choose


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#46 Michael Hardner

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 06:59 AM


Under Allende, would all Chileans have been free to choose?


Under Allende, they could protest, strike, speak out... and vote. That's the essence of choice.

Pinochet was a dictator, who imprisoned tortured and killed citizens. Not much choice there.

Also: We're still ignoring the idea of social choice... mostly because we're in the area of "not grotesque generalizations" about left and right, in which we're supposed to indulge your view of the left not providing choice because... well... just because...

#47 Manny

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 07:38 AM

Yes in fact my good friend Absolon is from Chile, an he told me that Pinochet was put in power by the influence of the United States. The CIA helped Pinochet. They assassinated leaders who were democratically elected, in South America. There was no choice for Chileans.

#48 Michael Hardner

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 07:44 AM

Yes in fact my good friend Absolon is from Chile, an he told me that Pinochet was put in power by the influence of the United States. The CIA helped Pinochet. They assassinated leaders who were democratically elected, in South America. There was no choice for Chileans.


In the US, you see, there is so much choice that they can even choose leaders of other countries in the world: Chile, the Philliplines, Iraq, Afghanistan.

#49 cybercoma

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 04:45 PM

In the US, you see, there is so much choice that they can even choose leaders of other countries in the world: Chile, the Philliplines, Iraq, Afghanistan.

Post of the week.

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free and civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as their religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

Thomas Jefferson


#50 Jack Weber

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 05:47 PM

In the US, you see, there is so much choice that they can even choose leaders of other countries in the world: Chile, the Philliplines, Iraq, Afghanistan.


It's worse than that Mike...That's just scratching the surface...

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#51 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 07:31 PM

In the US, you see, there is so much choice that they can even choose leaders of other countries in the world: Chile, the Philliplines, Iraq, Afghanistan.


Oh come now...don't be so modest. Canada got to un-pick the democratically elected president of Haiti. Salute! ;)
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#52 American Woman

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 07:52 PM

Oh come now...don't be so modest. Canada got to un-pick the democratically elected president of Haiti. Salute! ;)

I'd say they had a hand in choosing the leaders of Iraq and Afghanistan, too. :)
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#53 bush_cheney2004

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:07 PM

I'd say they had a hand in choosing the leaders of Iraq and Afghanistan, too. :)



Yes...but it's funny how they always get amnesia about such things.
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#54 bleeding heart

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 03:25 AM

That's a good question: Who was worse, Pinochet or Allende?



Like I said, the most reasonable way to answer such a question is to determine who objectively hurt the most people.

You seem to believe that the speculative future evils of an Allende regime--wholly unproven, and based on hypotheticals--is worse than the actual, real-world performance of Pinochet.

Under this mehtod of measurement, anyone could be hypothetically better or worse than anyone else...and we'd determine this based on opinion rather than on objective reality.

In short, your own underlying thesis here demolishes your own argument as quickly as anyone else's.

IMHO, people in civilized societies are never forced to choose between such extremes - because in a true democracy, people are free to choose.


The "true democracy" was the legal election of Allende, not the violent dictatorship of Pinochet.

Edited by bleeding heart, 08 April 2012 - 03:29 AM.

“There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver."

--Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007

#55 American Woman

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 07:26 AM

Yes...but it's funny how they always get amnesia about such things.

Amnesia wasn't a problem with some when it came time to talk contracts. :P
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#56 GostHacked

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:03 AM

Why are you addressing me with this ?


This is getting to be rediculous. Everytime someone addresses another (like I replied to your post) ... there seems to be a negative connotation to it. If you don't want to be addressed, perhaps don't post? You do have a choice there.
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#57 Jack Weber

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:19 AM

Like I said, the most reasonable way to answer such a question is to determine who objectively hurt the most people.

You seem to believe that the speculative future evils of an Allende regime--wholly unproven, and based on hypotheticals--is worse than the actual, real-world performance of Pinochet.

Under this mehtod of measurement, anyone could be hypothetically better or worse than anyone else...and we'd determine this based on opinion rather than on objective reality.

In short, your own underlying thesis here demolishes your own argument as quickly as anyone else's.



The "true democracy" was the legal election of Allende, not the violent dictatorship of Pinochet.


It was Pinochet that said soomething along the lines of "Democracy is the incubator of Communism!"...

'cause Augie was all about "freedom" of choice....

Edited by Jack Weber, 08 April 2012 - 11:21 AM.

The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!

#58 Michael Hardner

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:55 AM

This is getting to be rediculous. Everytime someone addresses another (like I replied to your post) ... there seems to be a negative connotation to it. If you don't want to be addressed, perhaps don't post? You do have a choice there.

You said I think I have a choice, but I didn't say I had a choice. You seem to be thinking I am on a different side of the argument.

#59 cybercoma

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:58 PM

Oh come now...don't be so modest. Canada got to un-pick the democratically elected president of Haiti. Salute! ;)

I'd say they had a hand in choosing the leaders of Iraq and Afghanistan, too. :)

Like clockwork.

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free and civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as their religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

Thomas Jefferson


#60 cybercoma

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:58 AM

I came across this today and I thought I would share it. This is what the "freedom" to choose looks like.

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free and civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as their religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

Thomas Jefferson




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