32 replies to this topic

[jacee]

The criminalization of drugs creates, encourages and profits organized crime.

The 'war on drugs' is conducted in countries that now want to legalize instead, to defeat organized crime and address consumption/addiction in other ways.

Latin America’s drug-war fatigue brings talk of legalization

They’ve seen high death tolls fighting cartels tooth and nail with no end in sight. Many are Mr. Harper’s conservative allies. Even anti-cartel warriors like Mexico’s Felipe Calderon will now at least talk about legalization.

“I think the surprise is that there are these centre-right presidents that are now willing to talk about the ‘framework’ surrounding drug policy,” said Jennifer Canadian International Council. They feel the organized crime is a bigger problem than drug use.

Guatemalan President Otto Perez says the war on drugs has failed, and it’s time for legalization. Colombia’s President Juan Manuel Santos told the Washington Post there has to be discussion of another way to confront the challenges.

“If we find that there is a better alternative that will take away the profits from the criminal organizations and that maybe you can address the problem of consumption in a more effective way, then everybody will win.

Now I know there are some people who will oppose legalization without giving it any consideration at all. These are the people who perpetuate organized crime and allow criminals to profit.

You're either with us or you're with organized crime.

-links-

Alcohol and drug use and harm in Canada 2010
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hc-ps/drugs-drogues/stat/_2010/summary-sommaire-eng.php#alc3

% of the population, in the past year:
Cannabis use 10.7%
No stats given for Cannabis harm

Other drug use 11.1%
Other drug harm 2.1%

Alcohol use 77%
Alcohol harm 5.7%

Edited by jacee, 15 April 2012 - 05:51 AM.

[Jack Weber]

The criminalization of drugs creates, encourages and profits organized crime.

The 'war on drugs' is conducted in countries that now want to legalize instead, to defeat organized crime and address consumption/addiction in other ways.

Latin America’s drug-war fatigue brings talk of legalization

They’ve seen high death tolls fighting cartels tooth and nail with no end in sight. Many are Mr. Harper’s conservative allies. Even anti-cartel warriors like Mexico’s Felipe Calderon will now at least talk about legalization.

“I think the surprise is that there are these centre-right presidents that are now willing to talk about the ‘framework’ surrounding drug policy,” said Jennifer Canadian International Council. They feel the organized crime is a bigger problem than drug use.

Guatemalan President Otto Perez says the war on drugs has failed, and it’s time for legalization. Colombia’s President Juan Manuel Santos told the Washington Post there has to be discussion of another way to confront the challenges.

“If we find that there is a better alternative that will take away the profits from the criminal organizations and that maybe you can address the problem of consumption in a more effective way, then everybody will win.

Now I know there are some people who will oppose legalization without giving it any consideration at all. These are the people who perpetuate organized crime and allow criminals to profit.

You're either with us or you're with organized crime.

Legalisation of pot or pot and cocaine?

I don't support the legalization of either...

Decriminalization of pot is what I do support...

Legalization or decriminalization of cocaine should never be considered...

Edited by Jack Weber, 14 April 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[Manny]

Legalisation of pot or pot and cocaine?

I don't support the legalization of either...

Decriminalization of pot is what I do support...

Legalization or decriminalization of cocaine should never be considered...

I find this extremely ironic. And somewhat hypocritical.

The beauty of alcohol induced behavour is that it's only temporary...

So drink up!!!

One mans poison, eh Jack?

[Jack Weber]

I find this extremely ironic. And somewhat hypocritical.



One mans poison, eh Jack?

I honestly don't care what you think...

However,alcohol IS legal...I'm not interested in dopehead justifications for why they think they need the legal right to puff weed with impugnity,but,I also think the police have better things to do than potentially imprison someone for having a few joints on them.

Which is why I support decriminalization...If you get caught puffing a joint you get a ....say...a 50$ ticket?...Instead of a criminal record...

Are you suggesting that a narcotic like cocaine,and all we know about its addictive nature,should be legalized?

[Manny]

No need to get personal, eh old bean? If you don't care what I think, why are you asking me that question. I don't think you've thought this out clearly. Or has the alcohol addled your brain a bit... that effect may not be as temporary as you think.

Tell you what, if you don't believe me look up how many people have died from alcohol poisoning. Death, is that only temporary Jack?

Did you know alcohol causes cancer? It's proven. No, you probably don't want to know about that. Because you said you don't care. But you DO care enough to tell other people what they should be allowed and not allowed to ingest.

Ironic, because during alcohol prohibition killed a lot of people, and the laws that you now believe in were overturned so that you can enjoy your drinks in peace. But less than a hundred years ago YOU WOULD HAVE WENT TO JAIL for drinking that.

[Jack Weber]

No need to get personal, eh old bean? If you don't care what I think, why are you asking me that question. I don't think you've thought this out clearly. Or has the alcohol addled your brain a bit... that effect may not be as temporary as you think.

Tell you what, if you don't believe me look up how many people have died from alcohol poisoning. Death, is that only temporary Jack?

Did you know alcohol causes cancer? It's proven. No, you probably don't want to know about that. Because you said you don't care. But you DO care enough to tell other people what they should be allowed and not allowed to ingest.

Ironic, because during alcohol prohibition killed a lot of people, and the laws that you now believe in were overturned so that you can enjoy your drinks in peace. But less than a hundred years ago YOU WOULD HAVE WENT TO JAIL for drinking that.

Thanks...For the sanctimony....

[jacee]

Thanks...For the sanctimony....

The reason given in the OP has nothing to do with people's moral judgements about what other people should consume.

Rather, it refers to the organized crime that flourishes due to the prohibition of drugs.

It's the same rationale that led to the end of the prohibition of alcohol.

The "war on drugs" has only increased the sophistication and damage done by organized crime, and it's suggested that the only way to defeat organized crime is to legalize drugs.

I don't think people should poison themselves slowly with drugs or alcohol, but I can't stop anyone but myself from doing so, legal or not, so my judgements about what other people 'should' do are irrelevant.

However, I think there would be less violence in our communities if drugs were legal and the role of organized crime was thus defeated.

Can you give that some serious thought, Jack?

[American Woman]

Can you give that some serious thought, Jack?

What makes you think that he hasn't given it some serious thought? Lots of people give it serious thought and conclude that illicit drugs should not be legalized. You come across as thinking that anyone who isn't in favor of legalization hasn't given it any thought, and in that regard your claim that "these are the people who perpetuate organized crime and allow criminals to profit" sounds an awful lot like the "you support baby killing" accusations thrown at pro-lifers.

[eyeball]

I say legalize drugs but in lieu of that I'd settle for the criminalization of alcohol and tobacco.

I mean, the spectacle of the state lecturing society on the evils of drug use while selling and profiting from them is contemptible. Ever tried lecturing a kid on the dangers of drug use with a cigarette in one hand and a drink in the other?

The sheer rebelliousness inspired by the compulsion to do as authority says not as authority does is like a drug in itself.

[Topaz]

For one thing, both, Harper and Obama are against it so it can't going to happen in NA. If one thinks legalizing drugs aren't going to kill people, I say you are wrong, users will OD, they will get behind the wheel and drive, while being out of their mind. The problem with Mexico, is that if ever the US military should have gone is into any country, it should have been Mexico and driven the drug lords back to SA. Nothing good can become of legalizing drugs and even though tobacco and booze are legal, look how many people die from them.

[jacee]

For one thing, both, Harper and Obama are against it so it can't going to happen in NA. If one thinks legalizing drugs aren't going to kill people, I say you are wrong,

Nobody said that.

What is being said is that illegal drugs create organized crime, and the 'war on drugs' is a failure.

users will OD, they will get behind the wheel and drive, while being out of their mind.

People will kill themselves with drugs whether it's legal or not.
People will kill themselves and each other in cars with or without drugs. Do we make cars illegal?

The problem with Mexico, is that if ever the US military should have gone is into any country, it should have been Mexico and driven the drug lords back to SA.

They tried. Chased them in SA too.
Organized criminal drug cartels just get stronger.
The war on drugs is a failure.

Nothing good can become of legalizing drugs and even though tobacco and booze are legal, look how many people die from them.

Yes something good can come of it: We can defeat organized crime.

Like alcohol and tobacco, adults can make their own decisions.

It's just too expensive to keep up the charade that we can get rid of drugs by making them illegal. All it does is keep organized crime in business.

[Jack Weber]

The reason given in the OP has nothing to do with people's moral judgements about what other people should consume.

Rather, it refers to the organized crime that flourishes due to the prohibition of drugs.

It's the same rationale that led to the end of the prohibition of alcohol.

The "war on drugs" has only increased the sophistication and damage done by organized crime, and it's suggested that the only way to defeat organized crime is to legalize drugs.

I don't think people should poison themselves slowly with drugs or alcohol, but I can't stop anyone but myself from doing so, legal or not, so my judgements about what other people 'should' do are irrelevant.

However, I think there would be less violence in our communities if drugs were legal and the role of organized crime was thus defeated.

Can you give that some serious thought, Jack?

I think I have...

If one decriminalizes something like marijuana,by making posession a summary offence,the "criminality" is greatly reduced.That stops a little before legalization,which I don't support...

I also would not support the decriminalization of heavy narcotics like heroin or cocaine...

[jacee]

I think I have...

If one decriminalizes something like marijuana,by making posession a summary offence,the "criminality" is greatly reduced.That stops a little before legalization,which I don't support...

I also would not support the decriminalization of heavy narcotics like heroin or cocaine...

So you prefer to leave the drug trade in the hands of organized crime?

Even Harper doesn't seem certain ...

Meanwhile, another issue — illicit drugs— captured the attention of the summit.

Harper said the leaders had a solid discussion on the issue.
“I think there is almost a universal agreement that we should continue to fight transnational criminal networks.
There is increasing doubt about whether we are taking the best approach to doing that.
”‘What I think everybody believes and agrees with — and I’ll be frank myself — is that the current approach is not working But it is not clear what we should do.”

The escalating violence connected to drug cartels in Latin America has some nations insisting it’s time for a new approach — a decriminalized system in which governments regulate how the drugs are sold. The purpose of establishing a legal, regulated system would be to undermine the profits of the drug gangs.

To varying degrees, the leaders of Guatemala, Colombia, Mexico and Costa Rica have spoken out in favour of why different approaches other than strict criminal crackdowns need to be explored. The development comes after decades of the “war on drugs” — a war that many Latin American leaders. say has been lost.

They note that drug cartels have grown more powerful as violence spreads throughout the region — claiming more than 50,000 lives in Mexico alone — and that drug use has only increased in rich nations such as Canada and the United States.
...
Harper spoke of how troubled he is by the continued “penetration” of the drug trade throughout Canadian society, in both urban and rural areas. ’“So there is a willingness to look at what various measures can be taken to combat that phenomenon.”

But he cautioned against “simple answers” such as decriminalization.
...
And no amount of law — whether it’s having the approach in the Muslim world to execution, all the way to full legalization, nothing is going to prevent the reality that this is a trade, people attempting to make rich by destroying people’s lives. It’s that simple.”

“It’s going to be an enormous social problem wherever it occurs and under whatever legal regime it happens.”

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2012/04/15/division-on-cuba-ends-summit-of-americas-on-frosty-note

Now, I see that Harper has identified the right villains - organized crime that profits from the illegal drug trade - but I detect some confusion and contradictions: If drugs are legal and controlled (like alcohol), then who does he think would be "attempting to make rich by destroying people's lives."?

Harper needs to give that some more thought.
A lot of people need to give that some more thought.
He's right that drug addiction will be a problem whether legal or not:
Drug abuse is not going away.

But legalizing would cut out the organized crime element, and their aggressive entrapment of people into addiction (and prostitution) and would give us a better chance to help people with drug addictions.

Legalizing would not encourage people to do drugs any more than legal alcohol makes people become alcoholics: Excessive drinking is not socially acceptable just because alcohol is legal.

[cybercoma]

I'm all for legalizing every drug and working towards de-stigmatizing it as criminal behaviour and beginning to look at addiction as a medical issue. I want drugs to be sold in stores in clean metered doses from companies that adhere to quality standards.

[cybercoma]

While I'm on the subject, I think the age limitation on drinking needs to be eliminated. No country that has eliminated the drinking age has a problem with college students killing themselves from alcohol poisoning like Canada and the US does. It turns booze into a "forbidden fruit" which I believe encourages irresponsible behaviour with it.