33 replies to this topic

[jbg]

Many sovereignists (separatists) believe that if Quebec were independent, then Quebecers would be free to create such a civilized society as Sweden or Norway.

On whose dime though? Those societies are expensive to run and lacking the resources of Norway or the productivity of Sweden I don't see the affordability of that kind of a subsidized society.

And yet you're a New Yorker who pays taxes to a federal IRS in Washington and shares a single currency from Guam to Bar Harbor.

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Yes, we're a single country. Greece is not in Norway.

Norway has its own currency and Norwegians contribute nothing to the EU budget. They are fair weather collectivists. At the same time, they sell their own resource to themselves at the world price.

What's wrong with any of that?

Moreover, when they chose in a referendum to separate from Sweden and create a sovereign state, the result was over 90% in favour.

Different languages, and historical independence.

[jacee]

As in the US where state universities (eg. UCLA or SUNY) charge out-of-state students higher fees, Canadian provinces set different tuition fees according to residency. I'm not defending the practice; I'm simply saying that Quebec universities are not alone.

As to Quebec's low tuition fees, why not? In fact, why should students pay tuition fees at all?

For some reason, we in North America in general collectively pay tuition fees/costs for students in elementary school and high school. And at age 18, we suddenly stop. Why?

Because we haven't fought to get rid of tuition, and in fact we've let it almost quadruple in less than 2 decades.

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Last point: About 30% of Quebec high school students are in private schools with tuition fees. IOW, many of the kids demonstrating in Quebec went to secondary schools requiring an annual tuition fee of $3000 or so!

Are you sure the 30% private school students are the ones demonstrating? I would expect that more of the other 70% of students would be demonstrating, but those whose parents pay their expenses wouldn't have as much at stake.

[August1991]

Are you sure the 30% private school students are the ones demonstrating? I would expect that more of the other 70% of students would be demonstrating, but those whose parents pay their expenses wouldn't have as much at stake.

jacee, the most vociferous student leader, Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois, spokesperson for Classe, graduated from Regina Assumpta

À titre de co-porte-parole de la Coalition large de l'Association pour une solidarité syndicale étudiante (CLASSE), Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois se retrouve souvent pris entre l'arbre et l'écorce.
...

Au Collège Regina Assumpta, école privée réputée de Montréal, il obtenait de bons résultats, mais remettait tout en question.

La Presse

BTW, Regina Assumpta is one of the best rated schools according to the Fraser Institute list.

=========================

On whose dime though? Those societies are expensive to run and lacking the resources of Norway or the productivity of Sweden I don't see the affordability of that kind of a subsidized society.

Norway, pop. 5 million, or Sweden, pop. 9 million, are arguably more successful societies than the US. Moreover, these civilized societies are sustainable.

Yes, we're a single country. Greece is not in Norway.

The United States is, well, a federation of united states. Nowadays, these states share a single currency and a single tax collection agency. Sustainable Norway (and Sweden) are different states.

Anyway, jbg, if you want to turn this thread into a discussion of the US, let's take this outside. Start another thread elsewhere.

Edited by August1991, 27 April 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[August1991]

Are you sure the 30% private school students are the ones demonstrating?

As a quick guess, I would say that about 50% of francophone university students in Quebec come from private schools.

More pointedly, the striking students are largely francophone, pure laine, de souche - and the leaders have typical French-Canadian names: Tremblay, Gauthier, Dubois, Caron, Desjardins - even to the 1980s Quebec style of double-barreled names: Guy A. Cirque-Soleil.

And yet, Quebec university students are now a product of the Bill 101. But few "foreigners" are involved in this strike.

There is a marked split in this strike. Social sciences, liberal arts, French speaking tend to strike. Engineering, hard sciences, English speaking tend not to strike.

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In my OP, I suggest that Charest is engaging in wedge politics in order to win re-election.

What are wedge politics? Let me venture an answer. Two ambitious politicians eliminate all other competitors and then corner an indifferent voter into making a choice: vote A, vote B, don't vote. The smartest politician of the two frames the choice in favourable terms.

Apparently, Charest aims to make the next Quebec election a referendum on student fees and public disorder. In early March, Pauline Marois mistakenly wore a red square. And in May, François Legault - well, who's he?

Edited by August1991, 27 April 2012 - 08:44 PM.

[jacee]

As a quick guess, I would say that about 50% of francophone university students in Quebec come from private schools.

More pointedly, the striking students are largely francophone, pure laine, de souche - and the leaders have typical French-Canadian names: Tremblay, Gauthier, Dubois, Caron, Desjardins - even to the 1980s Quebec style of double-barreled names: Guy A. Cirque-Soleil.

And yet, Quebec university students are now a product of the Bill 101. But few "foreigners" are involved in this strike.

There is a marked split in this strike. Social sciences, liberal arts, French speaking tend to strike. Engineering, hard sciences, English speaking tend not to

And this matters ... why?

I expect parents who pay the shot will appreciate no increase.
Are you saying 'engineering, hard science' etc students who are not politically engaged will just pay the increase and not take any decrease that is negotiated?
No, of course not.

Are you saying that anglophone and allophone students won't participate in any negotiated settlement?
Of course not.

So what significance, if any, does this 'split' have, if indeed it exists at all? (Proof?)

Does any negotiated settlement not apply to college students (represented by CLASSE) as well, if Charest refuses to negotiate with them?

Of course it does ... and college students will have to respond to any proposal through their reps.

All these divide-and-conquer tactics are just that: political attack-and-destroy tactics not of any real significance in regard to negotiation of a settlement.

_____

I went looking ... here's evidence of a "split":
http://www.thestar.com/iphone/news/canada/article/1169707--diplomas-graduation-now-at-stake-in-quebec-student-protest

Division is stirring among students at the Cégep de Saint-Laurent because three among them successfully obtained a court njunction ordering their particular courses to go ahead in spite of the strike— whose pursuit had been voted for by 90 per cent of students in an assembly earlier in April.
...
François Xavier Blanchet, 21, already lost a lucrative summer-camp counselor job as a result of the long strike. The architecture program student was supposed to start in mid-May — mpossible now.

There is some bitterness, partly because he opposes the strike. “But we have to ive with it,” he said. “I respect democracy.”

It’s a minority of institutions and students currently on strike in Quebec. Out of 48 cegeps, 21 are on strike nvolving 83,000 students out of the total 175,000. Including universities, about 165,000 Quebec students are boycotting classes out of more than 400,000.

They don't mention the numbers for (nonCegep) colleges. Strange, as they are the largest and most militant group.

A big "minority" ... and will the rest of them turn down a negotiated settlement?
I doubt that.

Edited by jacee, 28 April 2012 - 05:07 AM.

[jbg]

Norway, pop. 5 million, or Sweden, pop. 9 million, are arguably more successful societies than the US. Moreover, these civilized societies are sustainable.

(not about the U.S.) Quebec does not have the advantages that Sweden and Norway have.

[bush_cheney2004]

(not about the U.S.) Quebec does not have the advantages that Sweden and Norway have.

Agreed...Norway was the largest per capita recipient of U.S. Marshall Plan dollars post WW2.

However, a much bigger effect upon Norway—much bigger than the actual monetary amounts that it received—was the creation of viable economies on the continent of Europe. Norway became a major exporter of fish and other goods to West Germany, France and other European nations. Without the Marshall Plan, these economies would not have had the money to import Norway’s products.

[August1991]

And this matters ... why?

You ask why it matters which students are on "strike/boycott". It matters in political terms.

It also matters if you believe that not all BAs are the same. IOW, if you believe that higher education in some fields has reached the point of diminishing marginal utility.

And it also matters in terms of "principles".

I expect parents who pay the shot will appreciate no increase. Are you saying 'engineering, hard science' etc students who are not politically engaged will just pay the increase and not take any decrease that is negotiated? No, of course not.

Are you saying that anglophone and allophone students won't participate in any negotiated settlement?

You argue here that non-striking students will benefit if the boycotters/activists keep tuition fees low.

And I suppose some people benefit from free TVs when vandals break into a Best Buy. (jacee, education is not "free". As Milton Friedman famously said, "There is no free lunch.")

Does any negotiated settlement not apply to college students (represented by CLASSE) as well, if Charest refuses to negotiate with them?

This policy change does not affect College (Cegep) students directly. It would only change university tuition fees.

In Quebec, Cegep students (the equivalent of Grade 12 and first year university in ROC) pay annual books/tuition fees of around $500.

As I understand it, CLASSE is a special sub-group/committee formed by university/college students. You have to understand Quebec trade unions (FTQ/CSN) to understand the student unions.

I went looking ... here's evidence of a "split": http://www.thestar.c...student-protest

Division is stirring among students at the Cégep de Saint-Laurent because three among them successfully obtained a court injunction ordering their particular courses to go ahead in spite of the strike— whose pursuit had been voted for by 90 per cent of students in an assembly earlier in April.

Most strike votes in student assemblies were held by raising a hand in public, often with less than 10% of students in attendance. I think that was the case at Cegep St-Laurent.

IOW, the strike votes were hardly democratic.

But here's the money quote:

It’s a minority of institutions and students currently on strike in Quebec. Out of 48 cegeps, 21 are on strike involving 83,000 students out of the total 175,000. Including universities, about 165,000 Quebec students are boycotting classes out of more than 400,000.

The fact is that most university/college students in Quebec are going to classes, professors are teaching and final exams are being scheduled.

I find it interesting which students are on strike and which are not. Don't you, jacee?

For example, is it not interesting that Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois went to a private fee-paying high school (which is nevertheless subsidized by the Quebec government)? Indeed, many of those wearing the red square (Pauline Marois etc) also benefitted from a subsidized private high school education.

Let me explain this to non-Quebecers: Imagine if the Ontario/Albertan governments subsidized Upper Canada College or the Calgary French School so that these schools could lower annual tuition fees to $3000 - but pick and choose students.

I reckon that about 50% of (francophone) Quebec university students arrive through such a "private/subsidized" high school system - including GND.

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If those who wear the red-square truly had principles, they would demonstrate to change Quebec's high school system. They would demonstrate to reduce high school tuiton fees to zero.

And jacee, if you had principles, you would at least admit that the Calgarian Harper shares the same currency with Gilles Duceppe, while Norwegians and Swedes have their own currency.

Edited by August1991, 30 April 2012 - 11:16 PM.

[August1991]

(not about the U.S.) Quebec does not have the advantages that Sweden and Norway have.

Why not? Quebec (like Norway/Sweden/Finland) is a small homogeneous population living in a large northern territory graced with recent glacier action (providing wonderful natural resources). Quebec like the others has access to the ocean and is on the edge of a large continent of people.

More simply put, Norsk Hydro and Hydro Quebec share much in common. They both borrow in world markets at similar rates and they both are experts in long-distance transmission of electricity. They both know cement.

Agreed...Norway was the largest per capita recipient of U.S. Marshall Plan dollars post WW2.

Once again, the US.

Marshall Plan? That was, like, 60 years ago when the US was a player. Now I fear that the US is no longer a player; it has turned into Paris Hilton. It lives on its name.

But as I say, if you Americans want to be narcissists and talk about yourselves, take this outside. Start another thread.

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As to Norway and Quebec, modern Leftists would likely find Quisling and Duplessis a more provocative comparison.

Imagine!

Edited by August1991, 01 May 2012 - 12:16 AM.

[August1991]

IMV, this thread title is well chosen for two reasons, despite what posters like jacee may believe.

First, this student strike in Quebec (like similar mob action in Greece) ultimately puts leftist politicians (Charest) against people (Quebec university students) who want more from the State.

But second, I use the term "Taliban" (students) to show the folly and ignorance of their complaint. These naive barbarians are at the gate - and we would be foolish to follow them.

If you blindly follow young people, you let 20 year olds direct society. It is a world of the Komsommol and the Hitler Youth - and the Taliban in Afghanistan. For too long, since the 1960s, youth has directed Quebec & America's Hollywood/Washington. There has been a veneration of youth. (René Lévesque was a singular exception. Trudeau, Charest, Boisclair all projected youth.)

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Returning to my second reason, while John Maynard Keynes was right in the short run, Mark Steyn is right in the long run.

There are simply not enough people working in the West to support the level of promised State subsidies/transfers. Or rather, as Greg Mankiw argues, we have extended State promises so far that the State can no longer offer the Dorian Gray Pill to all.

As Margaret Thatcher argued, socialist experiments ultimately fail because they run out of other people's money.

Quebec Inc is a socialist experiment (and Charest is a pragmatic politician). This student strike/boycott is the first evidence that the experiment is "running out of money".

There will be more activists in Montreal streets soon.

Edited by August1991, 07 May 2012 - 06:40 PM.

[bush_cheney2004]

Once again, the US.

Marshall Plan? That was, like, 60 years ago when the US was a player. Now I fear that the US is no longer a player; it has turned into Paris Hilton. It lives on its name.

It is still more of a "player" than Canada or Quebec.

But as I say, if you Americans want to be narcissists and talk about yourselves, take this outside. Start another thread.

That wouldn't help much....eventually you would boomerang right back to America and Americans. It is your fate.

[Michael Hardner]

There are simply not enough people working in the West to support the level of promised State subsidies/transfers. Or rather, as Greg Mankiw argues, we have extended State promises so far that the State can no longer offer the Dorian Gray Pill to all.

That article is talking about a hypothetical case.

I severely doubt that you have evidence to say there aren't enough people working to support state subsidies and transfers.

[August1991]

That article is talking about a hypothetical case.

I severely doubt that you have evidence to say there aren't enough people working to support state subsidies and transfers.

Michael, it is not a hypothetical case.

Young Quebec students want money to study. The professors want salaries. They want "money". These students/teachers expect food and real stuff.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael, it is not a hypothetical case.

Did you read the article ? It's about a $150,000 pill that provides endless longevity.

Young Quebec students want money to study. The professors want salaries. They want "money". These students/teachers expect food and real stuff.

And how does this lead to your conclusion then ?

I'll repeat my challenge of your assertion again, if only to see if you address it this time:

I severely doubt that you have evidence to say there aren't enough people working to support state subsidies and transfers.

[August1991]

I severely doubt that you have evidence to say there aren't enough people working to support state subsidies and transfers.

I disagree.

When Quebec nurses/Ontario teachers start work at 25 and retire at age 55, the State has a problem.

If someone lives 90 years but works only 30 years, someone has to pay the other 60 years of life.

Simple mathematics says that our tax/pension system should take 66% from our pay - assuming that people today will have children, and these future children will pay taxes.

God knows.

Edited by August1991, 10 May 2012 - 11:07 PM.