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Abortion revisited

405 posts in this topic

Last year 30 Quebec late-term abortions were committed in Kansas and New York.

And? How many abortions was that out of all abortions in Quebec and what were the reasons in each of those cases for sending them to American hospitals?

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I've come across these three articles on abortion. Although they are unrelated to one another, together they present a very chilling picture.

DC BATTLEGROUND FOR ABORTION

Christy Zink, a George Washington University professor and district resident who had an abortion at 21 weeks after an MRI revealed that her fetus had a significant brain abnormality, testified against the bill.

Its very premise that it prevents pain is a lie, Zink said, adding that her child, if carried to term, would have experienced near-constant pain. If he had survived the pregnancy, which was not certain, he might have never left the hospital.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/bill-that-would-ban-abortions-in-dc-after-20-weeks-to-get-hearing-in-congress/2012/05/17/gIQA9TmMVU_story.html

Message: Babies with abnormalities can be killed.

Infanticide conviction nets Alberta woman suspended sentence

The Wetaskiwin, Alta., woman convicted of infanticide for killing her newborn son, was given a three-year suspended sentence Friday by an Edmonton Court of Queen's Bench judge.

Katrina Effert was 19 on April 13, 2005, when she secretly gave birth in her parents' home, strangled the baby boy with her underwear and threw the body over a fence into a neighbour's yard.

The fact that Canada has no abortion laws reflects that "while many Canadians undoubtedly view abortion as a less than ideal solution to unprotected sex and unwanted pregnancy, they generally understand, accept and sympathize with the onerous demands pregnancy and childrbirth exact from mothers, especially mothers without support," she writes.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2011/09/09/edmonton-effert-infanticide-suspended-sentence.html

Message: should you find the demands of pregnancy and childbirth too onerous, it is okay to murder your child, what more if you have no support.

After-Birth Abortion

The pro-choice case for infanticide.

By William Saletan|Posted Monday, March 12, 2012, at 11:14 AM ET

Just when you thought the religious right couldnt get any crazier, with its personhood amendments and its attacks on contraception, here comes the academic left with an even crazier idea: after-birth abortion.

No, I didnt make this up. Partial-birth abortion is a term invented by pro-lifers. But after-birth abortion is a term invented by two philosophers, Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva. In the Journal of Medical Ethics, they propose:

[W]hen circumstances occur after birth such that they would have justified abortion, what we call after-birth abortion should be permissible. … [W]e propose to call this practice after-birth abortion, rather than infanticide, to emphasize that the moral status of the individual killed is comparable with that of a fetus … rather than to that of a child. Therefore, we claim that killing a newborn could be ethically permissible in all the circumstances where abortion would be. Such circumstances include cases where the newborn has the potential to have an (at least) acceptable life, but the well-being of the family is at risk.

Predictably, the article has sparked outrage. Last week, Reps. Joe Pitts, R-Penn., and Chris Smith, R-N.J., denounced it on the House floor. But it isnt pro-lifers who should worry about the Giubilini-Minerva proposal. Its pro-choicers. The case for after-birth abortion draws a logical path from common pro-choice assumptions to infanticide. It challenges us, implicitly and explicitly, to explain why, if abortion is permissible, infanticide isnt.

More.....

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2012/03/after_birth_abortion_the_pro_choice_case_for_infanticide_.

Message: The child should be regarded just like the fetus. The child will therefore be de-humanized like the fetus. You can dispose of him anytime you want if the "well-being of the family is at risk." I guess this must mean if we find this child a "high maintenance" then it's okay to kill him.

This reminds me of a bad futuristic B-movie - you know, the survivalist kind of movie after a nuclear explosion and rag tag survivors try to survive. The weak are the first ones to get whacked. The handicapped, along with old people, never make it.

I guess it doesn't have to be a nuclear aftermath. "Don't dampen my lifestyle" should do it.

Surreal.

Of course the future generation will be more likely to embrace the after-abortion proposal, thanks to us. We teach our children that there's no value to human life.

This will go beyond the womb.

Edited by betsy

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On the flip side: Brazil rocked by abortion for 9-year-old rape victim

Declaring that "life must always be protected", a senior Vatican cleric has defended the Catholic Church's decision to excommunicate the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old rape victim who had a life-saving abortion in Brazil.

The child, sexually abused by her step-father, was four months pregnant with twins.

The controversy represents a PR nightmare for the Vatican. The unnamed girl's mother and doctors were excommunicated for agreeing to Wednesday's emergency abortion yet the Church has not taken formal steps against the stepfather, who is in custody.

This is just crazy...

...the man would not be thrown out of the Church, because although he had allegedly committed "a heinous crime", the Church took the view that "the abortion, the elimination of an innocent life, was more serious".

Putting aside the argument of which is the "more serious" act, a nine year old is being held to higher standards than her grown-up, adult father figure. Furthermore, where is the sanctity for her innocent life?

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On the flip side: Brazil rocked by abortion for 9-year-old rape victim

Declaring that "life must always be protected", a senior Vatican cleric has defended the Catholic Church's decision to excommunicate the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old rape victim who had a life-saving abortion in Brazil.

The child, sexually abused by her step-father, was four months pregnant with twins.

The controversy represents a PR nightmare for the Vatican. The unnamed girl's mother and doctors were excommunicated for agreeing to Wednesday's emergency abortion yet the Church has not taken formal steps against the stepfather, who is in custody.

This is just crazy...

...the man would not be thrown out of the Church, because although he had allegedly committed "a heinous crime", the Church took the view that "the abortion, the elimination of an innocent life, was more serious".

Putting aside the argument of which is the "more serious" act, a nine year old is being held to higher standards than her grown-up, adult father figure. Furthermore, where is the sanctity for her innocent life?

That is not the flip side of my articles (if you're referring to those). Whether the church excommunicate the father or not....it is not the issue. This is sort of what I mean about the issue being seen as a religion issue instead of human rights. Of course for those who are religious, to them it is more about their belief....that can't be helped.

They see it as a sin.

But just because religon view abortion as a sin, should that be reason enough for non-religious people to dismiss the real issue?

The articles I've given is about the justice system and the law, and the attempt to provide the grounds for legislation (by argument that the infant should have the same status as the fetus) - in other words, trying to obtain the license to kill children who are outside the womb.

Set aside religion.

Edited by betsy

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***Disturbing photo.

Dead Newborn Infant Lies In Gutter Like Trash In China

A morning in the Chinese province of Hunan brings an unimaginable sight of cruelty and horror. Lying in the gutter of a bustling main road is the tiny, twisted body of a dead baby girl. She is naked, surrounded by only dirty pieces of hospital gauze. Buses and bicycles speed past the corpse, spraying it with mud.

“The baby was lying right near the government tax office, so many people in government just walked past.” Eventually, an old man picked up the child, put her in a box, and dropped her in a garbage bin.

http://www.taliacarner.com/deadnewborningutter.html

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Furthermore, where is the sanctity for her innocent life?

The message from the Catholic church is that raping children isn't such a bad thing..... Disgusting.

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Brutality of abortion rears its ugly head

The most chilling story revolving around abortion has “quickly” surfaced from the city of brotherly love, Philadelphia. Abortionist Doctor Kermit Goshell has been arrested for eight counts of murder; seven infants which survived botched abortion procedures in which the babies’ spinal cords were severed with scissors while alive, and the death of a patient through sloppy medical procedures. The doctor’s wife and eight others are also under grand jury scrutiny.

What is troubling is the lack of disclosure and silence that has accompanied this event. Why didn’t the regulating state agencies do anything after knowing that his “abortion clinic” was the source of so many complaints?

Abortions are illegal in Pennsylvania after 24 weeks and Goshell routinely ignored this guideline. The word spread that if you needed a late term abortion, Goshell’s practice was the place to go. Goshell even trained his staff how to fudge ultrasounds so the pictures would appear at the 24-week requirement.

More....

http://www.examiner.com/article/brutality-of-abortion-rears-its-ugly-head

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I agree with Betsy that when these procedures are made illegal it opens the door to shady, back-room practices that are unsafe for everyone.

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Brutality of abortion rears its ugly head

Misleading title is ...well misleading.

But no surprise, look at the newspaper/online source. :lol:

Edited by guyser

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Misleading title is ...well misleading.

But no surprise, look at the newspaper/online source. :lol:

How is it misleading?

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****WARNING****

GRAPHIC PHOTOS

Shocking Photos Of Gosnell Murder Victims Included in Grand Jury Report

We are posting copies of these images so that the full truth of the horrific nature of these crimes can be understood. In the report, the Grand Jury notes that several agencies and groups became aware of what has become known as Gosnells shop of horrors but did nothing.

Just the day after the death of Karnamaya Mongar, Gosnell had applied for membership to the National Abortion Federations, whose meager guidelines Gosnell could not meet. Even though an NAF staff person spent several days in Gosnells abortion mill noting numerous violations, they did not think to report him to the proper authorities.The grand jury also had a stern rebuke for regulatory organizations who looked the other way, giving their stamp of approval on his criminal practices.

http://www.operationrescue.org/archives/shocking-photos-of-gosnell-murder-victims-included-in-grand-jury-report/

Edited by betsy

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NATIONAL ABORTIONS FEDERATIONS claims to set standard of care for abortion in North America.

http://www.prochoice.org/

And yet they failed to report the Gosnell's clinic for violations! What kind of standard is that? It's back to the same backroom deals, except this is much worse!

Edited by betsy

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We're no different than China!

I hate to say this but I will anyway. If we do not stop this evil atrocity, and if we have to choose the lesser of two evils....

....then I say we should just kill baby girls! Control the female population.

Perhaps then there will be lesser would-be baby killers, and a whole lot lesser babies killed.

Edited by betsy

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Betsy, you don't seem to differentiate between a fertilzed egg and a child outside the womb.

Why is that?

Edited by fellowtraveller

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Betsy, you don't seem to differentiate between a fertilzed egg and a child outside the womb. Why is that?

Perhaps because some relativists - blinded by their ideology - had taken the illogical notion that the fetus is not human?

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....then I say we should just kill baby girls!

I agreed with you that they shouldn't make abortions illegal, but now you've gone too far.

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How is it misleading?

Cute trolling....

Anyhow, abortion, like many other medical procedures, can and is brutal. This Dr was an incompetent boob who horrifies most with his sloppiness .

'Brutality of Dr' is more apt.

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We're no different than China!

Cueing Shady....absolute non-sense.

I hate to say this but I will anyway. If we do not stop this evil atrocity, and if we have to choose the lesser of two evils....

What evil atrocity? Its great that woman have this opportunity to rid themselves of something they dont want.

Why do you want to oppress women? Arent you one?

....then I say we should just kill baby girls! Control the female population.

Perhaps then there will be lesser would-be baby killers, and a whole lot lesser babies killed.

They arent babies! :lol:

Edited by guyser

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They arent babies! :lol:

Personally the semantic shit doesn't bother me. If anti-abortion nuts want to pretend a blob of tissue the size of a shrimp is the same as a baby, that doesn't matter to me or affect my belief in the right to abort the little critter.

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Personally the semantic shit doesn't bother me. If anti-abortion nuts want to pretend a blob of tissue the size of a shrimp is the same as a baby, that doesn't matter to me or affect my belief in the right to abort the little critter.

I agree however they try to coach it in terms that brings in the emotion (ahh...its a baby) angle to muddy the waters.

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I agree however they try to coach it in terms that brings in the emotion (ahh...its a baby) angle to muddy the waters.

Quite frankly, I don't find the "little critter" reference much better.

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I agree however they try to coach it in terms that brings in the emotion (ahh...its a baby) angle to muddy the waters.

I too agree, but quite frankly, I don't find the "little critter" reference any better.

Edited by American Woman

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We're no different than China!

I hate to say this but I will anyway. If we do not stop this evil atrocity, and if we have to choose the lesser of two evils....

....then I say we should just kill baby girls! Control the female population.

Perhaps then there will be lesser would-be baby killers, and a whole lot lesser babies killed.

Do you really take yourself seriously?

Certainly no one else could.

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Cute trolling....

Anyhow, abortion, like many other medical procedures, can and is brutal. This Dr was an incompetent boob who horrifies most with his sloppiness .

'Brutality of Dr' is more apt.

Nice try. So you got a three-breasted beauty. This doc literally butchered babies, as seen in the photos.

On top of that, pro-choice National Abortions Federation, supposedly watchdogs to ensure standards knew about his violations and failed to report them!

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Nice try. So you got a three-breasted beauty. This doc literally butchered babies, as seen in the photos.

On top of that, pro-choice National Abortions Federation, supposedly watchdogs to ensure standards knew about his violations and failed to report them!

Clearly making abortion illegal would put a stop to this sort of thing.

Wait, what?

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