78 replies to this topic

[August1991]

IMV, this is an opening salvo in a potential political war. (And in this salvo, Harper got the better of Mulcair - and Mulcair knows it).

Both the NDP and the CPC have changed their names.

MJ Coldwell, and the CCF, opposed Canada's involvement in WWII.

Score 1 for Harper.

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Once upon a time, I thought that it would be a Dion vs. Harper era. (I wuz wrong.) Rather, we may be entering a Mulcair vs. Harper era.

I reckon that Harper has the political smarts but Mulcair has the regional accent. And Canadian federal politics are not ideology - it's all about region.

Edited by August1991, 27 April 2012 - 09:03 PM.

[Jack Weber]

IMV, this is an opening salvo in a potential political war. (And in this salvo, Harper got the better of Mulcair - and Mulcair knows it).

Both the NDP and the CPC have changed their names.

MJ Coldwell, and the CCF, opposed Canada's involvement in WWII.

Score 1 for Harper.

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Once upon a time, I thought that it would be a Dion vs. Harper era. (I wuz wrong.) Rather, we may be entering a Mulcair vs. Harper era.

I reckon that Harper has the political smarts but Mulcair has the regional accent. And Canadian federal politics are not ideology - it's all about region.

Wrongo,Sport..Only J.S. Woodsworth(a true coward) stood against the invasion of Poland and the resulting Declaration of War...The rest of the CCF caucus didn't stand with thier leader...

Score 1 for the historians...

I don't disagree with anything else that you've said,other than the fact that Mr. Mulcair may be a tad smarter than Mr. Harper...

[Evening Star]

Well, first off the far left, mostly NDP supporters would say the world wars were fought by imperialist and colonial powers, and in fact claim that for example remembrance day is a celebration of imperialism and that everyone who fought and died in those wars did so for nothing, or at least not for what they thought they were fighting for. Ive read that on babble many, many times. Thats up for debate, but it is true that the NDP has at least some of its support from people like that, communists too, whatever, the conservatives no doubt have some support from the very far right. So while i wouldn't say Harper is wrong i was disappointed to here him say that, he did look really off, not himself for whatever reason, maybe the pressure is getting to him, idk. Whatever the reason he had better up his game, Mulcair is no slouch.

"The NDP has at least some of its support from people like that" is not exactly the same as saying "the NDP has a pacifist ideology regardless of circumstances and in 1939, the NDP leader did not even want to support the fight against Hitler [even though the party did not exist yet]". I'm sure the Conservatives get "at least some of their support" from raging homophobes and racists but it would not be very fair to say "The Conservative party has a homophobic and racist ideology". You see the difference?

[Evening Star]

Wrongo,Sport..Only J.S. Woodsworth(a true coward) stood against the invasion of Poland and the resulting Declaration of War...The rest of the CCF caucus didn't stand with thier leader...

It wasn't cowardice. It was personal conviction. Woodsworth truly did hold a "pacifistic ideology regardless of circumstances", which he did not impose on his party. (The fact that this is not true of the NDP - A DIFFERENT PARTY FROM THE CCF - is evident right away from their initial support for the Libya mission.)

[The_Squid]

MJ Coldwell, and the CCF, opposed Canada's involvement in WWII.

That's mostly a bunch of BS. The ccf did not oppose Canada's involveme nt in wwII. One member did. Nice try.

The Harperites can attempt to defend their leader, but this was a major faux pas. Invoking Hitler inthe House? Get real. Idiotic.

Edited by The_Squid, 27 April 2012 - 09:47 PM.

[August1991]

Wrongo,Sport..Only J.S. Woodsworth(a true coward) stood against the invasion of Poland and the resulting Declaration of War...The rest of the CCF caucus didn't stand with thier leader...

Score 1 for the historians...

I don't disagree with anything else that you've said,other than the fact that Mr. Mulcair may be a tad smarter than Mr. Harper...

I guess you're right:

He split with CCF leader J.S. Woodsworth when World War II broke out in 1939. Woodsworth, a pacifist, opposed the war effort, while Coldwell and the rest of the CCF caucus supported the war, and Coldwell's view was the party's official position.

Wikipedia

But Weber, you lose.

Ordinary Canadians don't care about these finer points of CCF/NDP ideology - except that we have to pay for the debate, while suffering accusations (Quebec-bashing) that our debates also waste time/money.

As my bilingual son says, "Whatever."

[Jack Weber]

I guess you're right:Wikipedia

But Weber, you lose.

Ordinary Canadians don't care about these finer points of CCF/NDP ideology - except that we have to pay for the debate, while suffering accusations (Quebec-bashing) that our debates also waste time/money.

As my bilingual son says, "Whatever."

I don't lose anything at all since I wasn't alive for the debate...Mr. Harper loses because He isn't,quite clearly,a follower of history.Only J.S.Woodsworth voted against Canada's involvement in WW 2.The rest of the "pacifist" CCF voted for the war...

Pacifism is morally bankrupt...Only J.S. Woodsworth failed to realize this...

And only you see this as "Quebec bashing"...

Edited by Jack Weber, 27 April 2012 - 11:34 PM.

[The_Squid]

Harper may want to take a lesson from Mackenzie King, the PM at the time, who said "There are few men in this Parliament for whom I have greater respect than the leader of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation. I admire him in my heart, because time and again he has had the courage to say what lays on his conscience, regardless of what the world might think of him. A man of that calibre is an ornament to any Parliament."

Even at the time and the heat of the moment in the middle of a war our PM had the sense and class not to compare his opponents to the Nazis. There is a lesson in there for Harper.... Will he ever have the sense to see it?

[Jack Weber]

It wasn't cowardice. It was personal conviction. Woodsworth truly did hold a "pacifistic ideology regardless of circumstances", which he did not impose on his party. (The fact that this is not true of the NDP - A DIFFERENT PARTY FROM THE CCF - is evident right away from their initial support for the Libya mission.)

Pacifism is morally bankrupt in the face of pure evil...In this case,it is also cowardice...

But I agree,it is totally different from the modern NDP and our Economist in a Tank for a PM should have known better...

[dre]

Let me guess.. He should resign?

I'm starting to believe in Shady's Harper derangement syndrome theory.

Nobody called for him to resign. But he resorted to one of the most stereotypically idiotic and overplayed cards in history. Its not that he should resign its just embarrassing its our top politician saying something so retarded. The fact he would use that tactic suggests he thinks Canadians are stupid people that wouldnt see it for what it is.

[jacee]

Nobody called for him to resign. But he resorted to one of the most stereotypically idiotic and overplayed cards in history. Its not that he should resign its just embarrassing its our top politician saying something so retarded. The fact he would use that tactic suggests he thinks Canadians are stupid people that wouldnt see it for what it is.

Harper does see Canadians as stupid. Probably because those toadying around him are. He knows how to rile up the bigots, but he constantly alienates anyone with a brain and a conscience.

It's an embarrassment,
but mildly entertaining at times.

The twitterverse
https://mobile.twitter.com/#!/search/%23HarperHistory

My fav ...
"Derrick O'Keefe The NDP caused the extinction of the dinosaurs. Stockwell Day can confirm this one."

Edited by jacee, 28 April 2012 - 03:00 AM.

[cybercoma]

Wrongo,Sport..Only J.S. Woodsworth(a true coward) stood against the invasion of Poland and the resulting Declaration of War...The rest of the CCF caucus didn't stand with thier leader...

Score 1 for the historians...

I don't disagree with anything else that you've said,other than the fact that Mr. Mulcair may be a tad smarter than Mr. Harper...

And JS Woodsworth was no coward. He was involved in the Winnipeg General Strike. Woodsworth opposed the war because he was a religious man that opposed all war due to his faith. If Harper's base knew anything about Woodsworth, they would be upset with the prime minister for attacking a man for his faith.

[cybercoma]

I guess you're right:Wikipedia

But Weber, you lose.

Ordinary Canadians don't care about these finer points of CCF/NDP ideology - except that we have to pay for the debate, while suffering accusations (Quebec-bashing) that our debates also waste time/money.

As my bilingual son says, "Whatever."

You know what the average Canadian is going to see?

They're going to see Harper asked a very straightforward question about whether or not the troops will stay in Afghanistan after 2014. Then they'll see him invoking Hitler to insult the NDP.

That's what they'll see.

If they look further into it, they'll see that the NDP wasn't even formed until 1961.

How you could consider this a win for Harper is beyond me. He screwed himself here.

[cybercoma]

Pacifism is morally bankrupt in the face of pure evil...In this case,it is also cowardice...

Easy for you to say in a post-holocaust world. We're talking about a period in our history where Canada had eugenics boards because we believed it was good social policy. You can't use present-day moral sensibilities to judge the past. Obviously pacifism was not the best choice during WWII, but he certainly didn't stand alone in his conviction. There were serious battles in the US over going to war or not.

[madmax]

Score 1 for Harper.

I hope he scores more like this.