187 replies to this topic

[Argus]

No one said EVERY immigrant is a boon to the economy. But in general, immigrants as a whole are a net benefit.

You have any evidence of that?

[Argus]

Its population growth itself thats important to the economy. If canadians had sex with each other more without birth control then it wouldnt be a problem. But as things stand we need to let in a certain ammount of people... obviously you want to let in as many good ones as possible, but youll probably have to let in some average ones to meet population growth targets as well.

BTW... Children, the elderly, and low skilled workers all contribute to the economy. They need shelter, that means construction jobs. They need food, that means agricultural and retail jobs. ETC.

They're not contributing to the economy. Workers contribute to the economy. If you produce nothing then you are contributing nothing - unless you are economically self-sufficient.

[Argus]

Agreed. Is repairing a diesel engine in the Philippines or delivering a baby in Romania any different then in Canada?

Well, in Canada, you're required to wash your hands before you deliver the baby...

[eyeball]

Licensing covers where trees can be cut, how many trees can be cut, what safety standards are required for workers, what training they should have etc.

You left out the most important thing, licences also determine who get's the economic benefits of logging or fishing or whatever it is that's being licenced. For individuals without one the tragedy of the commons eventually becomes the tragedy of enclosure.

Logging is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world, and the regulations probably emerged from real issues.

The problem is the regulatory scheme just gets more and more complex and hard to navigate, and expensive to fund over time.

Eventually we will have to reboot and start over me thinks.

I agree, I'm just saying we should do that from the ground up instead of from Ottawa or fill-in-provincial-capital-here down. The same process should place determining how to best allocate and licence opportunity so that the greatest number of people make money instead of just a few, first and foremost on the agenda.

[dre]

There is not one economic study which has shown that immigration actually contributes to our economy in any real, net sense. Nor does the government care. Immigration is not designed to help Canada, it's designed as a vote-getter for the party in power. Any good or ill it does the economy is beside the point.

Again thats pure fantasy, and there has been a shitload of studies into population growth and economic growth.

Again, immigration is driven by economics. Population contraction is extremely dificult for a government to manage. The first example that comes to mind is Japan. When their population began to recede the spent more than a decade mired in massive government debt, and were hit with bouts of deflation, overly high savings rates, reduced consumption etc.

[Argus]

Thats absolutely and categorically false, which is why immigration continues regardless of which party is in charge.

Indeed. Each party sucks up to the immigrant/ethnic vote.

It absolutely IS driven by economics, and the desire for Canada to remain a growth economy. Without immigration we would be in big trouble, and eventually our population would shrink to zero.

Uhm, in a thousand years maybe. If we cut immigration entirely, our population would continue to grow for about about the next twenty years or so, then very, very gradually begin to decline (assuming existing birth rate), but the decline would be negligible for decades.

No Canadian government has EVER undertaken an economic study to determine how many immigrants Canada needs or should take with regard to what is best for our economy. Don't you think that would be a pretty basic thing to do if the point of immigration was to help the economy?

[Argus]

Pure mythology. Our system is one of the best in the world, and our immigrants on balance are extremely well educated and highly skilled.

I agree. That was pure mythology. And you can't provide any kind of legitimate study to say otherwise because none exists.

Fact is immigrants to this country are our best and brightest citizens.

Perhaps you can explain how you arrived at that statement other than sticking your hand into your rectal cavity and pulling it out to wave it around.

Edited by Argus, 30 April 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[dre]

They're not contributing to the economy. Workers contribute to the economy. If you produce nothing then you are contributing nothing - unless you are economically self-sufficient.

Workers contribute to the economy.

So what? The employment rate for immigrants is only a tiny bit lower than it is for natural citizens, and its higher for second generation immigrants.

[Argus]

Should Government have a final say on what post secondary studies one takes?

Depends on circumstances. If you keep applying for welfare and pogey then I think government has the right to insist you be trained in a skill that will support you.

[Argus]

Again thats pure fantasy, and there has been a shitload of studies into population growth and economic growth.

Yeah, sure. When the population grows, the overall size of the economy grows. So what? How is that a net improvement?

Again, immigration is driven by economics.

No, it's driven by politics.

Population contraction is extremely dificult for a government to manage. The first example that comes to mind is Japan. When their population began to recede the spent more than a decade mired in massive government debt, and were hit with bouts of deflation, overly high savings rates, reduced consumption etc.

Japan had and continues to have a lot of problems unrelated to demographic changes.

[fellowtraveller]

>

Japan had and continues to have a lot of problems unrelated to demographic changes.

You cannot ignore the reality that a prime factor, the prime factor, in the demographic nightmare coming to Japan soon is the aging population due to low birthrate. Canada has the same issue, but offsets it with considerable immigration, the majority of which is aimed sprecifically at importing skilled workers.
Japan has failed and continues to fail to allow much immigration, and they will reap that whirlwind soon enough.

[dre]

I agree. That was pure mythology. And you can't provide any kind of legitimate study to say otherwise because none exists.



Perhaps you can explain how you arrived at that statement other than sticking your hand into your rectal cavity and pulling it out to wave it around.

Like I said... Even though only 27% of Canadians were born outside of Canada, 40% of our masters degree holders and a whopping 49% of our doctorate holders are foreign born.

As for studies there have been quite a few. For example a study by the Economic Council of Canada recommended increasing immigration with the eventually goal of having 100 million people.

A University of Montreal study published in 2002 by professor Marc Termote used different methods and studied different countries and concluded that immigration has no statistically significant impact to the per capita income of a country.

[dre]

>You cannot ignore the reality that a prime factor, the prime factor, in the demographic nightmare coming to Japan soon is the aging population due to low birthrate. Canada has the same issue, but offsets it with considerable immigration, the majority of which is aimed sprecifically at importing skilled workers.
Japan has failed and continues to fail to allow much immigration, and they will reap that whirlwind soon enough.

Exactly right.

The Canadian government also has a shitload of obligations, like taking care of our aging population, rebuilding crumbling infrastructure etc. It needs GDP growth, and increased revenues that result from population growth to fund these liabilities otherwise it will have to raise taxes.

[Michael Hardner]

In the past we engaged 'some' migrant workers, mainly in agriculture. The difference is now that greater and greater numbers of temporary workers are coming into Canada, and not to the farmer's fields but to work in offices, factories and retail outlets doing jobs Canadians could and would do, but for lower wages.

They have been importing office workers and others for at least ten years.

[Argus]

So what? The employment rate for immigrants is only a tiny bit lower than it is for natural citizens, and its higher for second generation immigrants.

It's not a tiny bit lower, it's significantly lower. And their economic performance is lower and getting lower still. A taxi driver or a janitor does not earn enough to be actually paying taxes in most cases, certainly not enough to balance the services they and their families consume. That is why the Fraser Institute estimated that immigration, rather than being a net economic benefit, costs Canada's economy some $20 billion per year.