59 replies to this topic

[Derek L]

I make no arguments against military spending generally (I agree these matters should be hotly debated, and it's good to see it happen).

That doesn't change the charge of statism; we can argue whether the statism is justified and necessary; we can't argue that conservatives are every bit as statist as liberals (despite the protestations) because it's a plain, and in fact uncontroversial, truth.

Which makes many of the "big government" arguments rather moot. The political Right, just like the Left (and of course the self-described "Centre" who pretend they're above all this) love big government.

It all comes down to the degree of statism I suppose, not only DND, but within any Government department, and do we get a better return for money spent and is private industry capable of meeting said requirements?

In DND itself, we already rely on many “sub-contractors” to provide services that to a varying degree, the military use to do itself ( NATO NFTC, dissimilar air training, contractor maintenance and logistical support etc) and one could argue on the degree of success this has achieved.

[dre]

To clarify then, there’s no detailed breakdown (in public) of both the old and new figures on the Libyan mission costing? I’d assume if there was, you’d have already linked to them to “disprove” my estimate…….I’ll go with my current estimated breakdown allotment…….My F-35 estimate after all, dated a year prior, was inline with the recently “released” figure by the AG…….


You care to take a stab at the Libyan price tag breakdown?

So... your defense of these numbers is that not only does do the governments estimates jaunt around wildly with the frequency of a cheap ham radio, but they dont provide us with any kind of breakdown of the various fake numbers.

Hell of a defense.

[Derek L]

So... your defense of these numbers is that not only does do the governments estimates jaunt around wildly with the frequency of a cheap ham radio, but they dont provide us with any kind of breakdown of the various fake numbers.

Hell of a defense.

Who said it was a defence? As I said to Waldo, clearly either the military or MND are to “blame” for the discrepancy in totals, and as for the actual breakdown on what was spent, as I’ve said prior, I’d like to see the breakdown of the ~340 million dollar figure……….

[dre]

I’d like to see the breakdown of the ~340 million dollar figure……….

Then vote for a more open transparent government next time youre given the chance... supposing such a choice even exists.

Id like to see ALL the governments financial data (raw, formatted, and compiled) published on a website for interested citizens to mine. Then we could actually know stuff about things.

[Derek L]

Then vote for a more open transparent government next time youre given the chance... supposing such a choice even exists.

Id like to see ALL the governments financial data (raw, formatted, and compiled) published on a website for interested citizens to mine. Then we could actually know stuff about things.

That’s the rub eh?


As I mentioned earlier via deduction, if said ~340 million dollar figure includes the purchase of ordinance, and said purchase makes up roughly 1/3rd the cost, coupled with the inclusion of already sunk costs for the military, the actual total tab for seven months of combat operations to topple a despot, when contrasted with the Afghanistan mission, is a drop in the bucket, and lends weight to the ideals that future conflicts will be conducted more in the fashion of Libya, then Afghanistan :


Cost of the Afghanistan Mission 2001-2011

The incremental cost of the current mission in Afghanistan to the Government of Canada from 2001 to 2011 is currently estimated to be approximately $11.3 billion. This includes estimates for mission close-out costs, but excludes post-2011 costs for veterans’ disability and health care. These incremental costs are calculated at approximately $8.8 billion for the Department of National Defence (DND) and approximately $2.5 billion for other departments – including $1.64 billion for the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA), $466 million for the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT), $250 million for Veterans Affairs Canada (VAC) and $96 million for Public Safety, including costs for Correctional Service of Canada (CSC) and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP).

~$350 million for ~7 months, with no Canadians killed or injured, versus $ 8.8 billion for ten plus years, 158 deaths and near 2000 injured to varying degrees....If one looks at it like this, clearly Libya was the more economic (and dare I say effective) model for a Western nation to further it’s interests abroad.

[dre]

That’s the rub eh?


As I mentioned earlier via deduction, if said ~340 million dollar figure includes the purchase of ordinance, and said purchase makes up roughly 1/3rd the cost, coupled with the inclusion of already sunk costs for the military, the actual total tab for seven months of combat operations to topple a despot, when contrasted with the Afghanistan mission, is a drop in the bucket, and lends weight to the ideals that future conflicts will be conducted more in the fashion of Libya, then Afghanistan :


Cost of the Afghanistan Mission 2001-2011



~$350 million for ~7 months, with no Canadians killed or injured, versus $ 8.8 billion for ten plus years, 158 deaths and near 2000 injured to varying degrees....If one looks at it like this, clearly Libya was the more economic (and dare I say effective) model for a Western nation to further it’s interests abroad.

That’s the rub eh?

It definately is. Its not a partisan issue and you cant blame it the Conservatives either. We will get shit government as long as we have shit citizens, content with being told only what the government finds it convenient to tell us.

[eyeball]

That’s the rub eh?

What do you propose we do about it though? Any serious call for transparency from the doves usually has the hawks citing the need for official secrecy, not unlike the need for political secrecy that results in two sets of financial books, a rosy one for public consumption and another secret one for the government.

~$350 million for ~7 months, with no Canadians killed or injured, versus $ 8.8 billion for ten plus years, 158 deaths and near 2000 injured to varying degrees....If one looks at it like this, clearly Libya was the more economic (and dare I say effective) model for a Western nation to further it’s interests abroad.

Assuming our interests were in fact ever threatened or served. Given it's the very same people who are keeping the aforementioned books that are deciding this as well, I have serious doubts.

[bleeding heart]

I guess this didn't do the trick:

ha! No, probably not too successful as a recruiting tool.

[bleeding heart]

It all comes down to the degree of statism I suppose, not only DND, but within any Government department, and do we get a better return for money spent and is private industry capable of meeting said requirements?

Certainly, there are aspects in which private industry can do a better and more efficient job.

In DND itself, we already rely on many “sub-contractors” to provide services that to a varying degree, the military use to do itself ( NATO NFTC, dissimilar air training, contractor maintenance and logistical support etc) and one could argue on the degree of success this has achieved.

Oh, yes, and private industry is important to things like Canadian health care as well.

But it's still "socialism"...the military too--even if private contractors are used, because they're still getting paid with taxpayer dollars. Similarly (and less justifiably, perhaps), subsidies to business is socialism, even if we euphemistically call them "incentives."

I'm not decrying tax-funded military or health care, by the way; I believe some measure of socialism is necessary.

I once had an ongoing discussion with a self-labelled "anarcho-capitalist," and he thought everything--everything--should be paid for by consumers, up to and including the police and the courts...that if you couldn't afford "justice," you didn't deserve it.

But such views are fringe lunacies, held by very, very few people.

Edited by bleeding heart, 13 May 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[Derek L]

It definately is. Its not a partisan issue and you cant blame it the Conservatives either. We will get shit government as long as we have shit citizens, content with being told only what the government finds it convenient to tell us.

But hasn’t that been the case with Governments, of all political stripes, for centuries?

[Derek L]

What do you propose we do about it though? Any serious call for transparency from the doves usually has the hawks citing the need for official secrecy, not unlike the need for political secrecy that results in two sets of financial books, a rosy one for public consumption and another secret one for the government.

I can see the requirement for some levels of secrecy within DND (And RCMP and intelligence agencies) for quit obvious reasons, but by and large, the majority of DND’s spending hardly falls under said secrecy provisions……..Does the costing associated with boot laces or operating a handful of military bases of little utility really require total secrecy? I think not, with that said though, can’t the same level of transparency also be afforded with the CBC, politician’s expense accounts and recipients of Government assistance in the form of welfare, both social and corporate?

Assuming our interests were in fact ever threatened or served. Given it's the very same people who are keeping the aforementioned books that are deciding this as well, I have serious doubts.

As mentioned by yourself, globalization is a reality and as such the price of tea in China and oil in Libya very much effect our nation’s interests.

[Derek L]

Certainly, there are aspects in which private industry can do a better and more efficient job.




Oh, yes, and private industry is important to things like Canadian health care as well.

But it's still "socialism"...the military too--even if private contractors are used, because they're still getting paid with taxpayer dollars. Similarly (and less justifiably, perhaps), subsidies to business is socialism, even if we euphemistically call them "incentives."

I'm not decrying tax-funded military or health care, by the way; I believe some measure of socialism is necessary.

I once had an ongoing discussion with a self-labelled "anarcho-capitalist," and he thought everything--everything--should be paid for by consumers, up to and including the police and the courts...that if you couldn't afford "justice," you didn't deserve it.

But such views are fringe lunacies, held by very, very few people.

Indeed, and as I mentioned, I’ve no problem with Government delivery of services if there are clear neighborhood effects (Stolen from Friedman Capitalism and Freedom) and their delivery couldn’t be undertaken by the private sector……….Does a freeway paid for by Government (via taxpayers) necessarily have to be built by direct Government employees or is a positive return viable through the private sector? That’s the real live grown up debate to be had.

[Shakeyhands]

uh oh, more water of the hot variety heading Mackays way...

Are the CPC hiding military spending from us?


(About the link, sorry Booster Club, I couldn't find any news on this from The Red Star)

[DogOnPorch]

ha! No, probably not too successful as a recruiting tool.

Classic...

[Derek L]

uh oh, more water of the hot variety heading Mackays way...

Are the CPC hiding military spending from us?


(About the link, sorry Booster Club, I couldn't find any news on this from The Red Star)

Much ado about nothing, and the Opposition and their booster club are starting to sound like the boy that cried wolf………My brother’s second deployment to Afghanistan was in Leopard II’s and when we purchased them four years ago it was a stated fact that we’d also purchase support variants:


Leopard 2 purchase agreement signed

The Leopard 2 tanks acquired by Canada will be distributed as follows:

Forty tanks will be used in operations on deployment.
Forty tanks are needed to conduct collective and individual training in Canada.
Twenty tanks will be used as key special purpose support vehicles i.e. tanks for laying bridges, armoured repair vehicles and armoured engineering vehicles.

As for MERX itself, hardly classified on the same level as Area 51


MERX

Edited by Derek L, 13 May 2012 - 04:44 PM.