190 replies to this topic

[punked]

http://upi-yptk.ac.id/Ekonomi//Psacharopoulos_The-real.pdf?PHPSESSID=47e28c180b731783ea45dd3740283d5f

Explanation how much "free" higher education really costs. And you still haven't told us how you will get the money and then make an argument to use that money for "free" education rather then paying down the debt, improving healthcare, primary and secondary education, cutting down taxes or improving the military. Its a nice exercise for you to say we need free education...just as soon as one of those people I insult on a regular basis comes up with a realistic plan to accomplish this.

Know what I am tried of? Right wingers using Greece as the new Nazi. Here is something for you to think about. Greece isn't a left wing state, in a left wing state people pay taxes to pay for social programs. In Greece (which accumulated most of its over burdening debt under a CONSERVATIVE government who was cooking the books so they could get into the EU) people don't pay their taxes. It isn't a failed left wing state, or a failed right wing state it is just a failed state. This might shock you but it has nothing to do with left wing or right wing ideology and anyone who actually looks at what happened there would know that. Do some research,.

[Signals.Cpl]

Know what I am tried of? Right wingers using Greece as the new Nazi. Here is something for you to think about. Greece isn't a left wing state, in a left wing state people pay taxes to pay for social programs. In Greece (which accumulated most of its over burdening debt under a CONSERVATIVE government who was cooking the books so they could get into the EU) people don't pay their taxes. It isn't a failed left wing state, or a failed right wing state it is just a failed state. This might shock you but it has nothing to do with left wing or right wing ideology and anyone who actually looks at what happened there would know that. Do some research,.

And I am tired of people who are shown an example of the so called free education and ignore it because it does not fit their argument. This is not an argument on how good or bad greece is, this is to point out that free education is not really free. If you cannot be bothered to READ and UNDERSTAND this then you sir, are probably not in the right place. Some people want free education, here is an example of free education, where people spend as much on preparing their kids for college. I don't care about your left leaning nonsense, everything that comes out of Greece could be used to prove a point, here is an example of something that was tried and is failing, disprove the article rather then cry about the right wing, if you cannot argue again you are probably in the wrong place.

[Michael Hardner]

If you cannot be bothered to READ and UNDERSTAND this then you sir, are probably not in the right place.

The point punked made was that people in Greece don't pay their taxes, it's not that they're overtaxed.

[Claudius]

And I am tired of people who are shown an example of the so called free education and ignore it because it does not fit their argument.

You have to keep in mind it runs both ways. Proponents will put up Sweden as their model, but up until a couple years ago Sweden also had mandatory military service for example. Are a majority of Canadians willing to do something like that? The two policies obviously have a large disconnect, but my point is comparing single policies between nations is a hornets nest. The causes and effects of all the policies running in concert make a large part of a comparison a complete guessing game because they all affect each other. Consider the debate by more moderate opinions in the US about free health care. Many compellingly argue that comparing the US with Canada on this single policy is made invalid simply because the two systems are incompatible in other connected ways.

Edited by Claudius, 26 May 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[Michael Hardner]

but my point is comparing single policies between nations is a hornets nest.

Very true.... like comparing cultures, there are too many facets to consider... in the end, your opinion is just a matter of tastes IMO.

[dre]

Are a majority of Canadians willing to do something like that?

Yes I would be a strong proponent of that as long as the military was not used for world policing. If we are attacked then every single one of us SHOULD fight if we can. Short of that, I would also support some kind of blind draft.

[punked]

And I am tired of people who are shown an example of the so called free education and ignore it because it does not fit their argument. This is not an argument on how good or bad greece is, this is to point out that free education is not really free. If you cannot be bothered to READ and UNDERSTAND this then you sir, are probably not in the right place. Some people want free education, here is an example of free education, where people spend as much on preparing their kids for college. I don't care about your left leaning nonsense, everything that comes out of Greece could be used to prove a point, here is an example of something that was tried and is failing, disprove the article rather then cry about the right wing, if you cannot argue again you are probably in the wrong place.

Again no one is saying we should be Greece. No one thinks modeling an economy on a nation that too huge loans to pay for social programs and never collected taxes is a good idea. It is a poor argument. A real left winger truly believes we have to pay for the things we want. How do you do that? Why you grow the economy and collect taxes. Duh.

[Signals.Cpl]

The point punked made was that people in Greece don't pay their taxes, it's not that they're overtaxed.

Taxation is irrelevant, the report looks at the cost of a free education from the point of view of the student and their family rather then the state. It also looks at the change of the education system from testing your knowledge to moving heavily in the direction Teaching to the test. And it states that more and more Greeks are leaving the country to get an education elsewhere. The point is that a "free" education is not free, it only forces the student and their family to spend the money elsewhere in order to get an edge.

[Signals.Cpl]

You have to keep in mind it runs both ways. Proponents will put up Sweden as their model, but up until a couple years ago Sweden also had mandatory military service for example. Are a majority of Canadians willing to do something like that? The two policies obviously have a large disconnect, but my point is comparing single policies between nations is a hornets nest. The causes and effects of all the policies running in concert make a large part of a comparison a complete guessing game because they all affect each other. Consider the debate by more moderate opinions in the US about free health care. Many compellingly argue that comparing the US with Canada on this single policy is made invalid simply because the two systems are incompatible in other connected ways.

I understand that you could use a successful model, and yes sweden might or might not be a successful system, I don't know, but what I do know is that looking at one system and having a concrete example is better then the theoretical assumptions we make. All I have heard is that education is a right, and we should get that right free. No comparison to other nations that might have something similar, no learning from others mistakes, just us arguing theoretical points that do not prove anything. There are 3 kinds of people, and this extends to nations as well "Those who learn from other people/nations mistakes, those who learn from their own mistakes, and those who don't learn from mistakes." If we see that hey there are 20 nations using this model and 19 are unsuccessful then we would be stupid to try this unless we are able to see their mistakes, fix those mistakes before we implement the program and make sure that we don't make any other major mistakes.

[Signals.Cpl]

Again no one is saying we should be Greece. No one thinks modeling an economy on a nation that too huge loans to pay for social programs and never collected taxes is a good idea. It is a poor argument. A real left winger truly believes we have to pay for the things we want. How do you do that? Why you grow the economy and collect taxes. Duh.

Again, the point was that the article had nothing to do with the economy of greece, it was focusing on the costs to the student when the education is "free". Setting national finances aside, the point of the argument is that a free education is not free, it just forces you to spend similar amounts of money in other places in order to achieve the same goal.

Its like getting a $1,000 computer for free, and having to spend $950 on the operating system there is very little net effect, and when looking on a bigger scale the actual costs could be larger on the student.

[Michael Hardner]

Taxation is irrelevant, the report looks at the cost of a free education from the point of view of the student and their family rather then the state.

I looked at that report - they seem to be talking about opportunity cost. Is that right ? If so, that is kind of ridiculous. They're saying that if you were working, you'd be making 4 years of salary, and that is the 'cost' of education. But there is no cash outlay, and the returns from higher salary presumably outweigh this 'cost'. I mean, it does in Canada where we actually pay money and opportunity.

Am I misunderstanding that aspect of it ?

[Signals.Cpl]

I looked at that report - they seem to be talking about opportunity cost. Is that right ? If so, that is kind of ridiculous. They're saying that if you were working, you'd be making 4 years of salary, and that is the 'cost' of education. But there is no cash outlay, and the returns from higher salary presumably outweigh this 'cost'. I mean, it does in Canada where we actually pay money and opportunity.

Am I misunderstanding that aspect of it ?

I dont agree with that point either, my issue is the devaluation of the Greek Education system and the fact that people spend the price of the college education on tutors while in Canada we generally spend it on the tuition. When you make it free, the guys with more money use that money get an edge, thus you end up spending money just to keep up.

[Michael Hardner]

I dont agree with that point either, my issue is the devaluation of the Greek Education system and the fact that people spend the price of the college education on tutors while in Canada we generally spend it on the tuition. When you make it free, the guys with more money use that money get an edge, thus you end up spending money just to keep up.

Well, I have to acknowledge the point on tutors in Greece. I looked it up elsewhere and it's astonishing how much people do spend on tutors. I'd like to know more about that.

Making education free, though, doesn't give wealthy people an edge - think about how ridiculous that sounds.

[Signals.Cpl]

Well, I have to acknowledge the point on tutors in Greece. I looked it up elsewhere and it's astonishing how much people do spend on tutors. I'd like to know more about that.

Making education free, though, doesn't give wealthy people an edge - think about how ridiculous that sounds.

Well, now what stands between me a middle class guy and a university education is good grades to get in, good grades to stay in and pay my bills. When to get in to the university you need a tutor, who do you think can afford the best tutors, and the most time with them?

[Michael Hardner]

Well, now what stands between me a middle class guy and a university education is good grades to get in, good grades to stay in and pay my bills. When to get in to the university you need a tutor, who do you think can afford the best tutors, and the most time with them?

It's called meritocracy. The richest kid in my school could not have tutored himself to beat me in math, it was not possible.