14 replies to this topic

[cybercoma]

Stephanie Levitz of The Canadian Press has an article in The National Post suggesting that the bill C-38 and the marathon vote my have "exhausted political capital" for the Conservatives.

Both Mulroney-era Conservatives and a recent Tory cabinet minister lashed out at changes being made on the environment front.

Meanwhile, grassroots Conservatives at the riding association level have written letters expressing their own scorn.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06/15/tories-fear-marathon-voting-session-may-have-exhausted-political-capital/

So what happens going forward? As the elements of C-38 are implemented, presuming it passes the upper house and receives royal assent, Canadians will continue to be reminded of the bill. Will this begin to divide the Canadian political right and therefore the CPC?

Edited by cybercoma, 15 June 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[Anti-Am]

Will this begin to divide the Canadian political right and therefore the CPC?

I guess you missed it where the back bench stood up and chanted HARPER, HARPER, HARPER for a few minutes at the end of the voting. I don't believe the conservative caucus is at odds with the direction of the government. That many people, faking their real feelings.. no. It would have showed at least once during that day and it didn't.

[cybercoma]

I guess you missed it where the back bench stood up and chanted HARPER, HARPER, HARPER for a few minutes at the end of the voting. I don't believe the conservative caucus is at odds with the direction of the government. That many people, faking their real feelings.. no. It would have showed at least once during that day and it didn't.

The problem is with divisions at the riding association level.

[Anti-Am]

The problem is with divisions at the riding association level.

I don't think so Tim.

I bet this reinvigorated the party base.

Edited by Anti-Am, 15 June 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[Keepitsimple]

Funny how at the same time as this "affront to democracy" is happening in the form of a 400+ page Omnibus Budget Bill, Dalton McGuinty is trying to push through a 327 page Omnibus Budget bill of his own. Why is HE not being accused of hijacking democracy? Any guesses?

Edited by Keepitsimple, 15 June 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[mentalfloss]

Funny how at the same time as this "affront to democracy" is happening in the form of a 400+ page Omnibus Budget Bill, Dalton McGuinty is trying to push through a 327 page Omnibus Budget bill of his own. Why is HE not being accused of hijacking democracy?

McGuinty's budget is more focused on being a budget.

Edited by mentalfloss, 15 June 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[cybercoma]

Funny how at the same time as this "affront to democracy" is happening in the form of a 400+ page Omnibus Budget Bill, Dalton McGuinty is trying to push through a 327 page Omnibus Budget bill of his own. Why is HE not being accused of hijacking democracy? Any guesses?

Because I don't live in Ontario, so I don't particularly care what he does?

[Smallc]

McGuinty's budget is more focused on being a budget.

The budget, this budget, was a document focused on long term change. That was what Canadians gave the Conservatives a mandate for. That's what they're doing...even if I don't agree with every part of it.

[cybercoma]

That's what they're doing...even if I don't agree with every part of it.

But that's precisely the problem. You have to take all of it or nothing. It's good politics, but bad governance. Harper himself complained of these tactics, only to hypocritically turn around and use them. The right thing to do would have been to split up the legislation, so its constituent parts could go to the appropriate committees for study and be voted on by parliament individually as well. Moreover, this would have allowed the electorate an opportunity to voice their concerns over each piece of this legislation to their MP. We've already seen this work effectively with the online spying bill that the Tories shelved. Harper's not completely unreasonable when there's public outrage at what he's doing. However, this legislation was handled this way to hide the various elements of this bill from the public to avoid that kind of outrage. The opposition's stalling tactics shined a spotlight on the bill and gave people a lot more time to look into it and talk about it.

It's just not very democratic to pack changes to some 75 different pieces of legislation into one bill. This attitude of "we have a majority; tough sh*t," has got to end. A majority government should not be a tyranny. Otherwise, why even bother having parliament sit? If voting on amendments to a bill that's just under 500pp is such a waste of money and time, and the government is going to go with the first draft without a single modification, why even bother introducing legislation to the House or having any kind of debate? If the Conservatives keep governing this way, they will be punished at the polls. It's this kind of arrogance and contempt for the majority of the electorate that was ultimately the LPC's undoing. If voters begin to believe that the Conservatives are intentionally undermining our democratic institutions and truly don't give a crap about it, they won't stand for it. Until now they've had to work with other parties, but if they begin showing bad faith and acting like sore winners for the rest of their mandate, they will end up regretting it. It's not often that I give the CPC credit for anything, but they haven't been this arrogant until now. They would be wise not to let it become their undoing.

[Smallc]

But that's precisely the problem. You have to take all of it or nothing.

That's...pretty much the way it's always been. I don't really see the problem. If something is unpopular enough, it'll get changed.

[gunrutz]

But that's precisely the problem. You have to take all of it or nothing. It's good politics, but bad governance. Harper himself complained of these tactics, only to hypocritically turn around and use them. The right thing to do would have been to split up the legislation, so its constituent parts could go to the appropriate committees for study and be voted on by parliament individually as well. Moreover, this would have allowed the electorate an opportunity to voice their concerns over each piece of this legislation to their MP. We've already seen this work effectively with the online spying bill that the Tories shelved. Harper's not completely unreasonable when there's public outrage at what he's doing. However, this legislation was handled this way to hide the various elements of this bill from the public to avoid that kind of outrage. The opposition's stalling tactics shined a spotlight on the bill and gave people a lot more time to look into it and talk about it.

It's just not very democratic to pack changes to some 75 different pieces of legislation into one bill. This attitude of "we have a majority; tough sh*t," has got to end. A majority government should not be a tyranny. Otherwise, why even bother having parliament sit? If voting on amendments to a bill that's just under 500pp is such a waste of money and time, and the government is going to go with the first draft without a single modification, why even bother introducing legislation to the House or having any kind of debate? If the Conservatives keep governing this way, they will be punished at the polls. It's this kind of arrogance and contempt for the majority of the electorate that was ultimately the LPC's undoing. If voters begin to believe that the Conservatives are intentionally undermining our democratic institutions and truly don't give a crap about it, they won't stand for it. Until now they've had to work with other parties, but if they begin showing bad faith and acting like sore winners for the rest of their mandate, they will end up regretting it. It's not often that I give the CPC credit for anything, but they haven't been this arrogant until now. They would be wise not to let it become their undoing.

Which majority government in recent memory hasn't passed the legislation they wanted to pass simply because the opposition was against it? You may not like the process, but it isn't illegal, and this is just the way it is, i don't know if the liberals passed any omnibus bills, but i do know that if they wanted to pass a bill without modification they would have done so. While you seem to feel this is an affront to our democracy i would bet large that most Canadians don't care and those that do would care a lot less if it were not for it being the conservatives in power. There is a pretty large gap between your indignation and the concerns of most of us, pass it all at once, or pass them one at a time, maybe the problem is you don't like that the 'conservative agenda' is being implemented quickly as a result of this bill, perhaps that's why it bothers you so much. I know you realize that majority governments pass their bills without modification all of the time, maybe they shouldn't but it isn't abnormal.

[Topaz]

The budget, this budget, was a document focused on long term change. That was what Canadians gave the Conservatives a mandate for. That's what they're doing...even if I don't agree with every part of it.

Wait a minute, are you saying that Canadians voted for Harper because they wanted to have their OAS cut by two years and they wanted their EI changed and they wanted the changes to the environment that does more bad than good and they wanted to spend a Billion on a bridge and IF so, why didn't they mention this in the campaign? Because you know as well as anyone, that they would not have gotten their majority to do the things they are doing. Of course, the verdict is still out on if the election was a honest one.

[Smallc]

Wait a minute, are you saying that Canadians voted for Harper

Yes...because Canadians wanted a government focused on the economy and the books. That's what they got.

[cybercoma]

Neither Harper nor Flaherty were actually there for the vote on the third reading of C-38 or the vote for C-11 either. Way to stand behind your handy work, boys.

[bleeding heart]

Funny how at the same time as this "affront to democracy" is happening in the form of a 400+ page Omnibus Budget Bill, Dalton McGuinty is trying to push through a 327 page Omnibus Budget bill of his own. Why is HE not being accused of hijacking democracy? Any guesses?

You'd have to ask Ontarians.

The Federal issue is more prominent for me, and for most people, obviously.

Edited by bleeding heart, 19 June 2012 - 01:17 PM.