144 replies to this topic

[wyly]

What can be done is not let them in. Have the employer pay a wage that attracts Canadians to that job. Are we really going to employ the third world while Canadians don't have jobs?

that only works if there are enough canadians to fill the jobs...and then there are wages, if these corporations will only pay minimum wages for welders then no Canadian will take them and we can't legislate union rates as minimum wage...working for a union shop like the university wages would be $30-35 per hour, non-union shops in Calgary pay $13 and up...so those migrant workers aren't being treated any different than any other canadian, if they don't like the wages don't take the job...it may suck but I don't think there are any laws being broken...

[Peeves]

The average minimum wage in Canada is about $20,000 per year (full time). This isn't developing world conditions, but it's certainly struggling. The average one bedroom apartment in Ontario is around $750 according to CMHC. At $9000, that's almost half a person's gross income. Add utilities and telecom and that's at least another $2400 per month. We haven't even touched food and transportation to and from work yet and at $20,000/year the person would pay some amount of income tax.

Whatever happened to the time when it was expected that a person could make an honest living working 40 hours per week and care for a family on that income? We're racing to the bottom here. It's not third-world conditions, but more and more people are going to be living in poverty.

There never was a time where a person could work 4o hours and care for a family beyond necessities.
Then we got color t.v. , cells, internet,Computers, Ipads, gas guzzler cars, t.v. dinners fast foods rather than cooking, bar b Q's, sat. t.v.Play Station games, another T.V. for the kids, Another for the Bed room. and so on and so on. Now get rid of all the perks and maybe you could live cheaply on a 40hour week.

Myself, I worked a 48 hour week and held a part time job with a wife and 2 kids and just got by when there was very few of the 'necessities' families WANT now.


Also. No child care or the other cotton wool niceties our governments have doled out and raised taxes to cover.

Edited by Peeves, 16 July 2012 - 11:19 AM.

[cybercoma]

There never was a time where a person could work 4o hours and care for a family beyond necessities.

There absolutely was not only a time when one could do that, but it was expected from industry that they would be able to do that.

In my opinion, the social safety net has turned people's focus away from industry where it belongs and turned it towards the government. People no longer stand up to industry for their fair share of the profits because they expect the government to look out for them.

Edited by cybercoma, 16 July 2012 - 11:21 AM.

[Canuckistani]

that only works if there are enough canadians to fill the jobs...and then there are wages, if these corporations will only pay minimum wages for welders then no Canadian will take them and we can't legislate union rates as minimum wage...working for a union shop like the university wages would be $30-35 per hour, non-union shops in Calgary pay $13 and up...so those migrant workers aren't being treated any different than any other canadian, if they don't like the wages don't take the job...it may suck but I don't think there are any laws being broken...

If we don't have enough welders, let's train more instead of importing them. If the corps only pay min wage, let them go without workers, not accede to their pushing wages down. In times of labor shortages, wages are supposed to go up, not down.

[wyly]

There never was a time where a person could work 4o hours and care for a family beyond necessities.
Then we got color t.v. , cells, internet,Computers, Ipads, gas guzzler cars, t.v. dinners fast foods rather than cooking, bar b Q's, sat. t.v.Play Station games, another T.V. for the kids, Another for the Bed room. and so on and so on. Now get rid of all the perks and maybe you could live cheaply on a 40hour week.

Myself, I worked a 48 hour week and held a part time job with a wife and 2 kids and just got by when there was very few of the 'necessities' families WANT now.


Also. No child care or the other cotton wool niceties our governments have doled out and raised taxes to cover.

even with zero "necessities" I'd like to see anyone support a family in a city like calgary on minimum wage...living in a tiny basement suite can use up 10K of a yearly 15K minimum wage, then there is transportation, food, clothing...

[Peeves]

that only works if there are enough canadians to fill the jobs...and then there are wages, if these corporations will only pay minimum wages for welders then no Canadian will take them and we can't legislate union rates as minimum wage...working for a union shop like the university wages would be $30-35 per hour, non-union shops in Calgary pay $13 and up...so those migrant workers aren't being treated any different than any other canadian, if they don't like the wages don't take the job...it may suck but I don't think there are any laws being broken...

Correct. Most Canadians aren't union members. Also unions have padded their wage base with retirement plans at 55, drug, dental, insurance for travel, sick days accumulated and shorter work weeks, more O.T.

Now i don't begrudge a fair wage or some perks, but there is/was a price. Good for the unions that pushed, bad for the rest. If a private company has to make a profit, then their product price goes up accordingly.

Migrant workers find it's better to come here than to sit on their duffs and die.
Unless of course you're in the public sector then the skies the limit and we just increase tax...no profit need be made.


Additionaly, there ARE enough Canadians to fill the job market, it's just that many won't do that work.

[wyly]

If we don't have enough welders, let's train more instead of importing them.

train more? just like our MD shortage check the local technical schools and you'll find they're at maximum enrollment...

If the corps only pay min wage, let them go without workers, not accede to their pushing wages down. In times of labor shortages, wages are supposed to go up, not down.

what if they are offering jobs at competitive rates and still can't find sufficient welders?...I don't know the exact situation I'm just playing devils advocate here..

[Peeves]

There absolutely was not only a time when one could do that, but it was expected from industry that they would be able to do that.

In my opinion, the social safety net has turned people's focus away from industry where it belongs and turned it towards the government. People no longer stand up to industry for their fair share of the profits because they expect the government to look out for them.

Nonsense. I was in a well paying industry. My 40 hours a week was only covering basic necessities, not all the crap and taxes added from the -60-70's on.
I had to work a second job all my working life to afford any other extras.

[Peeves]

train more? just like our MD shortage check the local technical schools and you'll find they're at maximum enrollment...

what if they are offering jobs at competitive rates and still can't find sufficient welders?...I don't know the exact situation I'm just playing devils advocate here..

In ten years the mining workers will lose 40% of the workers through attrition.. There are jobs, but workers?

[wyly]

Additionaly, there ARE enough Canadians to fill the job market, it's just that many won't do that work.

can you blame them?...how many canadians will do the back breaking labour jobs or work in tough conditions for minimum wages when they can get minimum wage at 711 or at commissionaire job ...think about it, if you had a choice 711 or Tims vs working picking in an orchard for minimum wage which would you take? ...an adult with a family cannot survive on minimum wage, those jobs are for retirees, kids, new immigrants and migrants; those who don't really need a job, those looking for a little spending money or the very desperate...

[Peeves]

It's sad and generally unnecessary when a worker is killed.

I understand 5,000 Chinese mine workers die every year in coal mines.


And the early Suez!!
The majority of canal laborers were Egyptians forced to work in grueling conditions likened to building the Great Wall of China.[16] Of the 1.5 million Egyptians who worked on the canal, it is estimated 125,000 died from cholera.

Imagine the workers deaths on the pyramids or the Great wall of China..

We live and die so much better today.

[wyly]

In ten years the mining workers will lose 40% of the workers through attrition.. There are jobs, but workers?

what's your point?..we can't force people into mines?...I don't know why there would be trouble replacing them, the mines I'm acquainted with in alberta and saskatchewan never had a problem finding workers, they pay well and there was always a long list of applicants...I could only see a shortage developing if there were better paying job prospects and if that's the case the mines will have to raise wages or bring in migrant workers...

[Canuckistani]

train more? just like our MD shortage check the local technical schools and you'll find they're at maximum enrollment...

We've run out of space to build more tech schools, have we? Just can't be done? The MD shortage in the 1990's was caused by the govt purposely limiting med school spaces to reduce the number of doctors to reduce medicare costs. When this resulted in long waiting lists (duh) their response was first to import more doctors, many of whom couldn't practice because the medical associations wouldn't recognize their credentials. Does that make sense?

what if they are offering jobs at competitive rates and still can't find sufficient welders?...I don't know the exact situation I'm just playing devils advocate here..

What's a competitive rate - if there's a shortage of welders, wages should go up, no? If wages go up it should draw people to those jobs, and draw people to be trained as welders. If govt doesn't train enough, why don't corps train their own? Better yet, why don't we do it like Germany, where corps, govt, and unions co-operate on training?

[wyly]

It's sad and generally unnecessary when a worker is killed.

I understand 5,000 Chinese mine workers die every year in coal mines.

coal mines by their nature very unstable and the most dangerous mines...Potash mines in Sask are extremely safe and actually pleasant a miners paradise...

Imagine the workers deaths on the pyramids or the Great wall of China..

We live and die so much better today.

contrary to popular belief the pyramids work crews were well taken care of, a professional paid work force with medical care...the great wall, was horrendous...

[Peeves]

can you blame them?...how many canadians will do the back breaking labour jobs or work in tough conditions for minimum wages when they can get minimum wage at 711 or at commissionaire job ...think about it, if you had a choice 711 or Tims vs working picking in an orchard for minimum wage which would you take? ...an adult with a family cannot survive on minimum wage, those jobs are for retirees, kids, new immigrants and migrants; those who don't really need a job, those looking for a little spending money or the very desperate...

Very true. a hundred or so years can make a difference alright.

Workers at that time lined up for back breaking work and considered a full time job a god send.

We are so much luckier now, and unions got us there. Now a worker resents (in many cases) that they have to do 8hrs/day. But, they go home to enjoy things that were never imagined 100 years ago.

My first t.v. (there was only B&W, 4-5 stations), cost me about 10 weeks earnings.