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Mennonites may lose Canadian citizenship


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#31 Canadian Blue

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 05:18 PM

No catchme, we just want people to come here who are going to contribute to society. I don't see the point in deporting Mennonites who haven't done anything wrong, when we are still allowing this piece of trash in Canada.

MONTREAL -- By the time he appeared before an immigration judge in 2002, Jean-Yves Brutus was known to Montreal police as a street-gang member who wore gang colours, recruited runaway girls and possessed a pistol and a sawed-off rifle.

An immigrant from Haiti, he was ordered deported but he never left Canada, because his lawyer successfully persuaded immigration officials that Mr. Brutus's life would be threatened if he were sent back.

Last week, Mr. Brutus, 26, was charged with attempted murder in a case in which the victim was reportedly shot in the back for being part of a group that wore the wrong colour of clothing in a gang neighbourhood.

Mr. Brutus's case puts the spotlight on the procedure known as preremoval risk assessments, in which immigration officers have to balance how much risk someone facing deportation poses for society against the potential dangers that person faces once expelled from Canada.

"You're going to be forced to deal with people whose characters are not assets to society but who nevertheless are human beings. It's not easy," said Mr. Brutus's immigration lawyer, Stephen Fogarty.

Mr. Brutus was ordered deported in December of 2002 by adjudicator Pierre Turmel of the Immigration and Refugee Board.

Mr. Brutus had pleaded guilty in 2001 to possession of a prohibited firearm and assaulting a police officer.

The IRB heard from a Montreal police officer, who said Mr. Brutus was a member of the Crack Down Posse, a gang whose members are mostly of Haitian origin.

The hearing was shown two photos in which Mr. Brutus posed with CDP members, wearing a blue bandana, the colour of the gang.

The photos were found in a vacant apartment, "which was used as a refuge by runaway girls," Mr. Turmel's ruling said, noting also that Mr. Brutus was suspected of recruiting young girls.

Mr. Turmel ordered Mr. Brutus deported. He was, however, eligible for a preremoval risk assessment.

Mr. Fogarty said he submitted several human-rights reports, including one from the U.S. State Department, that said Haitians sent back to their country with criminal records are often detained, beaten, burned with cigarettes or hooded and choked.

He said his client was in 2003 the first applicant in Quebec to be successful in staving off his deportation by citing the dangers he would face in his native country. No more than 3 per cent of applicants are successful, the lawyer said.


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#32 jbg

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 06:32 PM

Sorry, no, not only do/did they NOT want government interference in their lives and are now asking for it, when they themselves need assitance, if it was any other group in Canada illegally, some people would be screaming for their deportation. The knife cuts both ways.

And yet, you'd have the Canadian government go to all kinds of lengths for the phony "dual" Canadians like the ones hanging out in Lebanon till the fire got too hot, and Maher Arer?

I think amnesty and return of citizenship should be on a case by case basis, dependent on their Canadian roots. If these people speak English (or French, but unlikely) and are Canadian culturally they should be their status.

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#33 BubberMiley

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 06:39 PM

The Mennonites are insanely hard-working, valuable members of Canadian society. The Mennonite Central Committee is also one of the most efficient and effective charities out there.
The Mennonites have also demonstrated how pacifism can be lucrative. When all the young men were fighting overseas in WWII, they got to stay home as conscientious objectors. Then, when all the farms foreclosed because there was no one to run them, they bought them up at bargain prices. :D
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#34 geoffrey

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 07:13 PM

Then, when all the farms foreclosed because there was no one to run them, they bought them up at bargain prices. :D


True. But there are plenty of Mennonites in our society outside of the typical farmers. I've worked for a Mennonite boss.
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#35 BubberMiley

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 07:22 PM

I've worked for a Mennonite boss.

I've heard that can be tough if you're lazy.
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#36 Catchme

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 08:26 PM

The Mennonites have also demonstrated how pacifism can be lucrative. When all the young men were fighting overseas in WWII, they got to stay home as conscientious objectors. Then, when all the farms foreclosed because there was no one to run them, they bought them up at bargain prices.


Now there is a good point. Looking after self interests, much like trying to keep dual citizenship even though you stated you were fleeing persecution and government interefernce. Now, I wonder how many came back from Mexico and Paraquay to get in on this cheap land scoop up?

Also, why have they broken with there pacifism ideology nowadays?
When the rich wage war, it's the poor who die. ~Jean-Paul Sartre

#37 Canadian Blue

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 08:38 PM

If they broke away from pacifism, then I doubt they are mennonites.
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#38 geoffrey

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 08:58 PM


I've worked for a Mennonite boss.

I've heard that can be tough if you're lazy.


I had no issues, great person to work for. Didn't believe in holidays though.
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#39 kimmy

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 12:52 PM

And kimmi was quite right to point out the racist sentiments of calling some illegal while not calling others the same, who are exactly in the same situation. It matters not how they got to it. But rather that they are illegal citizens in Canada according to our laws.

You keep claiming that there are others who are in just the same situation. Prove it. Show us a case of a comparable situation being treated with less sympathy.

Until you provide an example of a similar situation being treated with less compassion, what you're saying is just a load of unsubstantiated horse-shit.

You can continue spewing unsubstantiated horse-shit, or you can step up to the plate like a grown-up and provide an example of this double-standard you claim exists. I really hope you do the latter, but I've seen enough of your stuff to know that the former is much more your style. Come on, Catchme, stand up and exceed yourself just this once.

As for her ficticitious conversation used as an attack against me, lolololololol! Go kimmi goooooooooo!

Fictional? Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. I thought it might be informative for you to see how your view on this subject was perceived by somebody who's not familiar with your politics. But, you know, whatever. Feel free to keep doing what you're doing.

That is absolutely hilarious, there is no "love it or leave it" refrain. They left, no one is saying if you don't like it leave. They were the ones who left, no one told them to go. No one is saying now if you don't like it leave. Sloppy logic in making such a juxposition. Almost as sloppy as attacking the poster instead of discussing what the underlaying factors are here in a real and honest way.

Ok, let's say your stance isn't a petty, vindictive slam against these peoples' ancestors for having the audacity to doubt that Canada was a tolerant, multicultural utopia in the first quarter of the 20th century.

So, what underlying factor are you trying to address?

Very reasobably, I asked; why did they want to come back? what was the driving force bringing them back?

To reunite with relatives? Because Mexico and Paraquay have gotten worse? Because Canada has improved? Because they (and everybody else) had thought they had legal Canadian citizenship until this technicality was unearthed?

why did they want dual citizenship?

As people keep trying to explain to you, they did not "want" dual citizenship at the time they left. They didn't "try to keep dual citizenship". Again, because you apparently missed it the first 2 times, Canada didn't *have* a citizenship law until 1947!

Canada didn't *have* a citizenship law until 1947!

Canada didn't *have* a citizenship law until 1947!

The rules that gave Canadian citizenship to some (but not all) of the decendants of those who left didn't exist until many years afterward. Perhaps 1947, or perhaps the 1977 overhaul, or perhaps subsequent updates.

These are questions to be asked and it appears some do not like it. There are reasons and motives why people do what they do. Just as there are reasons why people want be selective, as kimmi suggested, about who comes here based upon racial/cultrual profiling.

I didn't actually suggest that. I suggested that while you'd like to make a comparison between these Mennonites who are "illegal" because of an 80 year old Mexican paperwork issue, and somebody like Jean Yves Brutus who is "illegal" because he pimps runaway girls, carries illegal weapons, and tried to kill somebody for wearing the wrong colour, rational people don't accept such a comparison as valid.


If our immigration department can find sufficient compassion for a dirt-bag like Jean-Yves Brutus to allow him to remain in our country despite his many flaws, surely we have enough compassion to not break up families and uproot people from long-established lives in this country for a reason as flimsy as 80 year old Mexican paperwork.


Again, either find us a comparable case, or quit claiming that people "in the same boat" as these Mennonites aren't being given any sympathy. If you can't find us a real case for us to examine so that we have something to talk about, then perhaps you should shut the fuck up. Or, I guess, you could go right on making a fool of yourself.

The Mennonites have also demonstrated how pacifism can be lucrative. When all the young men were fighting overseas in WWII, they got to stay home as conscientious objectors. Then, when all the farms foreclosed because there was no one to run them, they bought them up at bargain prices.

Now there is a good point. Looking after self interests, much like trying to keep dual citizenship even though you stated you were fleeing persecution and government interefernce. Now, I wonder how many came back from Mexico and Paraquay to get in on this cheap land scoop up?

During WWII, conscientious objectors (including the Mennonites, Doukhabors, and others) were required to serve in either non-combat branches of the military, or in "Alternate Service" camps, doing labour in the national interest. This carpetbagger scenario doesn't sound credible.

Mennonites have indeed bought a great many family farms on the cheap in more recent times. They also rent a lot of farmland from families who don't wish to farm their own land but don't wish to leave it either. Farmland is comparatively cheap, and has been for years, because depressed crop prices make it very difficult for the family farmer to make much money. Mennonites, using collective practices, have attained an economy of scale and efficiency in use of pooled capital and labor, that makes farming a much more viable enterprise for them as a group than it is for a single family going it alone.

Also, why have they broken with there pacifism ideology nowadays?

Are you just talking out of your ass again, or do you have something to support this?
Individuals join and leave religions all the time, and the vigor with which they follow their faith's doctrine is often a personal matter. But if you're making this claim of the Mennonite movement as a whole, you'd better have something to back it up with.


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