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Posts posted by buffycat

  1. The day Finklestein lowered himself past the point of any remaining decency was when he began to taunt and insult Eli Weisel.

    His words were pure poison and manifested a toxic psychopathology.

    You mean that Norman pointed out that 'night' was not an actual factual account? That he pointed out the fraudulent marketing of these 'stories'? Is that what you are refering to?

    Hey Rue - I asked before - what of Joan Peters?

  2. This is for DOP, who just doesn't seem to believe that Israel has nuclear weapons!

    A TELEVISION documentary in which Shimon Peres, Israel's foreign minister, discloses for the first time details about Israel's acquisition of nuclear weapons is to be broadcast in the Arab world. It is intended, at a time of rising tensions, as a warning.

    In the documentary, Mr Peres goes further than any other Israeli official in confirming that the Jewish state has a nuclear capability. He and former French government officials give details about co-operation between Israel and France in launching Israel's nuclear programme.

    The film, made by a leading Israeli documentary team, is a sign that the government may be finally relaxing its rule of absolute silence on its nuclear programme. Mordechai Vanunu, a technician at the Dimona nuclear facility, is serving an 18-year jail sentence for revealing in 1986 that Israel had a nuclear programme and more than 100 warheads.

    The documentary, The Bomb in the Basement: Israel's Nuclear Option, was shown in Israel last month and is being sold to leading Arabic television stations including Al-Jazeera, the Qatar-based satellite channel.

  3. Israelis Assault Award Winning IPS Journalist Mohammed Omer

    The security men also demanded he show all the money he had on him, and particular attention was paid to the British pounds he was carrying. His Gellhorn prize money had been awarded in British pounds but he was not carrying the entire sum on him bodily, something the investigators refused to believe.

    After being unable to produce the prize money, he was ordered to strip naked.

    “At first I refused but then I had an M16 (gun) pointed in my face and my clothes were forcibly removed, even my underwear,” Omer said.

    At this point Omer broke down and pleaded for an end to such treatment. He said he was told, “you haven’t seen anything yet.” Every cavity of his body was searched as one of the investigators pinned him down on the floor, placing his boot on Omer’s neck. Omer began vomiting, and fainted.

    When he came round his eyelids were being forcibly opened and his eardrums probed by an Israeli military doctor, who was also armed. He was then dragged along the floor by his feet by the Shin Bet officials, with his head repeatedly banging on the floor, to a Palestinian ambulance which had been called.

    “I eventually woke up in a Palestinian hospital with the doctors trying to reassure me,” Omer told IPS.

    The Dutch Foreign Ministry at the Hague told IPS that Foreign Minister Maxime Zerhagen spoke to the Israeli ambassador to The Netherlands and demanded an explanation.

    The Dutch embassy in Tel Aviv has also raised the issue with the Israeli Foreign Ministry, which in turn has promised to investigate the incident and get back to the Dutch officials.

    Ahmed Dadou, spokesman from the Dutch Foreign Ministry at the Hague told IPS, “We are taking this whole incident very seriously as we don’t believe the behaviour of the Israeli officials is in accordance with a modern democracy.

    “We are further concerned about the mistreatment of an internationally renowned journalist trying to go about his daily business,” added Dadou.

    Well, the Dutch shouldn't hold their breath.

    That said, I do hope that someone gets a good chewing out over this incident, thank goodness that Omer is still alive - not in great shape - but certainly better than being dead - like his reuters counterpart Fadel Shana whose death has yet to be addressed what so ever by Israeli authorities.

    Ahhh, yes - but this is par for the course for Israel and her various security apparati - whether the Shin Bet or IDF.

    I can only wish Mohammed Omer a speedy recovery - as well as hoping that he will stay safe.

  4. I wasn't saying there wouldn't be any gun violence/crime if guns were banned around the DC area too rather than just in DC, I was saying that maybe there would be less of it. And there very well could be.

    It wouldn't make any difference AW. If crims want guns and ordinary citizens are denied having them for their OWN protection - then violent gun crime will ensue. The police are NOT there to prevent crime - they are there to clean up afterwards.

    So - no - banning them around DC wouldn't make an iota of difference.

    In fact - in those states and counties that allow concealed carry laws etc - gun crime is VERY low. The crims are not that stupid you know - who would they burgle? The family with NO way to protect itself - or the family who HAS the means to protect themselves??

    Also - in the heat of the moment it is just as easy to kill someone with knife, bat or axe (or any other kind of dangerous implement). So the canard of 'in the heat of the moment is MOOT).

  5. I get the feeling the justices wanted to uphold the ban, but were prevented from doing so by the constitution. D.C. is a pretty violent place from what I've heard but banning handguns won't stop the violence.

    Sharkman, we are in agreement.

    Banning guns won't stop the violence - though perhaps 'banning' the glorification of gangsta culture by various 'media' groups may decrease it somewhat? (I'm being somewhat sarcastic there wrt gangsta culture ie rap music).

  6. You heard right. I didn't even realize that there was a ban against guns in DC, so evidently banning handguns didn't stop the violence. Could be because they weren't banned in the areas all around DC.

    Uh no.. it's because if criminals want guns they can get them - no matter what kind of prohibition the ptb try to place on them.

    Better to have an armed populace IMO.

    This was a good ruling.

  7. It's nice to see that some on here get it.

    For those who just chose to smear at me - have fun.

    This has nothing to do with orgasms over the death of an officer - but of course some here just love to go at me. Knock yourselves out.

    This does have to do with police misconduct during a raid on a family home - no announcement that they were police, no proper warning, no proper warrant. In the eyes of the law we are all equal - that IS the ideal, and thus it matters not whether the gent in question is a raving drug addict of a fundamental religious freak. We are all entitled to our liberty - and in this case this person's liberty and property were violated and those intruders paid the price. Sad - yes.

    But justice did prevail in the courts in the form of the aquittal.

    Hopefully the police will take better care at how the conduct these sorts of voilations in the future.

    Glad to see though that some folk here do actually see the danger is allowing police and other paramilitary units unfettered powers, I guess there is some hope afterall for this forum. (albeit rather dim).

  8. Here you go Buffy a responbse to comments that I am a liar, define any Jew who does not support Israel as an anti-semite and self-loathing, and should be finding out about my Jewish heritage from Norman Finklestein.

    Well, Rue as far as the lie goes - iirc about Dr. Finkelstein's visit to the West Bank being arranged by Hamas - then show me where I was wrong to call you on that (note absence of too over the top personal insults and inneundo on my part as well). Sheesh.

    You have defined many Jews as self-haters (or to use your ramped up version self-loathers ohhhhhh) who do not see eye to eye with the Israeli Administration's actions in the Occupied Territories. Never have I seen you support any of those brave men and women who do work for peace and understanding, and who are (much to your disgust it seems) Jewish. I have often mentioned others, people like Uri Avnery, Ilan Pappe, Israel Shahak, Ben Halper, Amira Hass, Gideon Levy - the list is truly endless including all the honourable men and women at organisations such as B'TSelem, Peace Now, ICAHD, and all the other truly positive forces in the fray. I guess they are all self loathers to you.

    In his text the Holocaust Industry Finklestein repeats the ancient anti-semitic canard which became prominent in the forged work, Protocols of the Elders of Zion what he used the term “ Jewish elites” and stated without any proof that they have created an industry to perpetuate the memory of the holocaust as a ploy to extort money, to gain influence and to prevent any criticism of Israel.

    This reference uses the negative stereotype caricature of the sinister, conspiring Jew who manipulates, deceives and lies. In so doing he simply uses this negative stereotype to smeer any Jew who wishes to honour the holocaust and educate people as to its consequences and portrays its victims who may have received compensation as thieves and liars. After insulting all holocaust survivors and Jews in general, he then links these anti-semitic references to the further suggestion that the holocaust was used to manipulate the world into supporting Israel.

    Nonsense Rue, of course he makes reference to these stereotypes - they have to be discussed as it is the only way to rid ourselves of them all 'round. There are, despite what you may think, some pretty nasty people with a little power out there who call themselves Jews, Christians and Muslim. These individuals hide behind the religious cloth of their own choosing - yet do not and are not representative of the vast majority of others who may also identify with some particular 'G-d'. Are you saying Rue, that there simply couldn't be exploitation of Jewish suffering during WW2 going on simply because Jews wouldn't allow their own elites to act that way? Or are you saying that no Jew has ever exploited another? What a massive generalisation, and what a massive error on your part Rue.

    What Finkelstein is saying is that the tactics of some of these exploiters plays into the hateful lies of true antisemites (no different than any other kind of ethnic hatred) by actually being scum sucking fraudsters. Even you must know about how much of the monies earmarked for Survivors and their families has been pilfered by various lawyers and bureaucrats along the way. Many survivors barely see any of it.

    As for the Holocaust being used to manipulate the world into supporting Israel, one cannot separate the creation of Israel from the devastation of the Holocaust - they are part of one another. To deny this is fool's errand. It has sadly also been hijacked often to stop discussions on the rather more questionable actions of Israel wrt the Occupied Territories - that's a fact - plain and simple. So, if you don't like the idea that the deaths of millions is being used to justify an aparthied regime guilty of ethnic cleansing and collective punishment, make a brave start Rue and you stop doing it yourself.

    Finkelstein does NOT blame or claim to speak for all Jews. I think he leaves that canard to people like you and Alan. ;) Talk again about sweeping generalisations Rue - it seems for all your kvetching you can't seem to stop doing what you are accusing others of.. *sigh*

    Such subjective remarks may influence people like you Buffy who are attracted to them precisely because of their simplicity and subjectivity but they disgust people like me because they belittle the work of true historic and academic scholars.

    Well Rue, since I don't actually subscribe to the train of thought which you are accusing me of, nor does your subjective analysis of Norman's work actually hold any water, the above attempted slur is moot. Though I will ask - do you consider Joan Peter's work as scholarly? pffft, and of course what about Alan's? pfft. lol

    Tell me Buffy do you find it admirable that a man like Finklestein would refer to holocaust survivor Eli Wiesel as a “resident clown” and dismisses Wiesel’s literature, works, holocaust education initiatives and peacemaking efforts between Jews and non Jews as simply that of manipulative deception to make people sorry for Jews? You find that something to admire?

    I admire those who have to courage to rout our liars and fraudsters - where ever they are found. No group has the corner on the market for telling lies and profitting from them - or gee - are you saying that since these people might happen to be Jewish they would never lie??

    You have a problem with me referring to Finklestein as a self-loathing Jew Buffy? . yak yak yak

    I have a problem with the whole label of 'Self-Hatering Jews'. I'd laugh if the whole thing wasn't so damn tragic. Really it's sad on so many levels - but it sure goes along way to diverting discussions and stifling debates - look how you are trying to do this here. Tell me do you contribute and support the SHIT list? You seem to advocate using the term against those Jews who might just disagree with your opinions on the actions of the Israeli governments and their lobbyists. Tell me - if one is a self hater (lol) does that automatically enter one into the club of Anti-semites as well? What about a free ticket to Holocaust Denial - are they included in the one way self loather fare?


    You want to lecture me Buffy on reading Finklestein and denying he is a self-loathing Jew, do me a favour, read him yourself and stop denying what he says and how they reflect his on self-loathing and pretending irs based on academic research.

    Tell me Buffy, did you not notice when Finklstein smeers all Jews with such negative stereotypes he always prefaces such subjective and hateful negative generalizations by referring to the fact he is the son of a child of holocaust survivor?

    Since I don't believe in self-hating Jews (they are up there with the Easter Bunny) and I have actually read Finkelstein's books, as well as attending his lectures, I'll just have to agree to disagree with you wrt your take on Norman. That's fine with me. But to say he is smearing all Jews is ridiculous and a gross over generalisation. Why shouldn't he say his is the son of Survivors - he is. So what? Lots of folks are - does that get one into a special club too? Why shouldn't someone point out when for example, a book is published and found to be a hoax? Should this not be brought to attention? How is that self hating? I think it's more 'hating' of those who give the rest a bad name. If one fraudulent document is out there - then does that not diminish the real suffering endured by the legitimate victims? Sort of like fake rape accusations - it serves to diminish and cast doubt on the real ones. That's not self loathing... what a ridiculous concept, but hey you seem to endorse it all to the nth degree.

    Are you that blinded by your anti-Zionist ideology you can't see it Buffy? Did it ever dawn on you that Norman Finklestein’s entire career is based on manipulating his Jewish identity..the very same thing he accuses other Jews of ? Buffy are you that devoid of being able to understand self-contradiction when you see it? Are you?

    Uh... obviously not - if you can follow what I've written on so many occassions - oh I forgot - you don't read what others say you just spin it. Dizzy yet?

    As for your portrayal of Finklestein’s trip to the West Bank as a harmless innocent visit to a human rights activist that's nice Buffy. Of course. He's a nice man. He was innocent. He’s just another innocent victim caught in the Zionist nightmare and onslaught against humanity.

    Well Rue, it was a harmless visit to a friend. You have failed to show otherwise and attack him only because you happen to disagree with his position wrt Israel and her actions in the OPT. What's new?

    You keep asking for links. Why don't you just go to his web-site and read his comments about Hamas or Hezbollah and his speeches on how Palestinians should start a civil uprising on the West Bank.


    I do frequent his website already thanks, hence why I probably know a little more about what his views really are as opposed to the Channelling of Alan you engage in. WRT the Palestinians 'uprising' they have every right to - he has never advocated a violent uprising - quite the opposite. I think it is you who needs to do some real reading and listening to what the man is actually saying, instead of channeling alan all the time.

    Can’t wait until you lecture me on how Ann Frank was a manipulative and sinister Jew.

    Now that is just about the most stupid thing you've ever tried to smear me with. Firstly - why drag that poor child into your guilt by random association technique? I have never mentioned her and her terrible fate. Now who is being sinister and manipulative Rue? (holding up a mirror for you to look at).


  9. Maybe not "more special," but perhaps more superior? At least when it comes to comparisions with the U.S.-- because the way I see it, a lot of Canadians do think they are morally superior to Americans/the U.S.

    Nah... we just have problems with your government - just as we have problems with our own.

    Personally, I wish we had the US Constitution as our own. It is truly one of the most admirable ideological documents ever created. Very sad, and overwhelmingly tragic how your land (and ours) has been hijacked by corporate/banking whores.

    Easy to do when one dumbs the populations down though, eh?

  10. Creative terminology aside, everybody must have noticed how the interest of Bush's administration in apprehension of OBL has so dramatically diminished of late.

    Perhaps because Bin Convenient isn't so much any more.

    Keep in mind they have invaded Iraq who had sweet dick all to do with 911.

    Keep in mind they are now threatening Iran who also has sweet dick all to do with 911.

    Also, keep in mind that we all are occupying Afghanistan - who really had sweet dick all to do with 911.

    Those that perpetrated that mess are ALOT closer to home...but for how much longer?

    What a sham.

  11. Quebec man acquitted in police officer slaying

    He was charged with first-degree murder in the death of Const. Daniel Tessier, who died after being shot three times last spring after he entered Parasiris's Brossard home with a battering ram during a botched drug raid.

    Indeed - one which the warrants were invalid, one in which there was bad blood already between officer Tessier - all around a BS situation.

    I don't know about the rest of you here, but if someone were to break down my front door at 5 am, not announce they were cops, I too would come out swinging (and if I had a gun - shooting).

    Good on the jury! Good on the court!

    Justice was served!

    The cops should learn a lesson here.

  12. To me it doesn't seem too realistic that the Israelis could bomb various hardened underground sites in Iran with the bombs and planes they have. It also doesn't seem realistic that they would borrow suitably equipped jets and bombs from the US or have the US do the bombing for them.

    Therefore, perhaps this musing by an Israeli minister is just that.

    No worries, they will just have Daddy US do it for them... afterall isn't that what the Americans are for?? 3 Billion a year, more cluster bombs when needed, lots of military equipment...

    Heck, when Israel says jump the Yanks ask 'how high'!!

    Recall what Sharon said wrt the US... or do YOU even have a clue?

  13. LOL Kuzadd - doncha know that White doors (who knows what sex he/she/it is) or Sharkman is NOT even worth responding to??

    Oh, of course they love to throw around the accusations of being a .... wait for it...


    But that's only because neither of them can refute the facts.

    I wouldn't bother wasting time on either of them.

    For those who seem to think I only bash Israel on this forum and I should start bashing the Muslim and Christian fanatics too - well all I have to say there is that this forum is quite full of hatred for these other two monotheistic farces, so I will let others do that. Also, I would like to point out that NOWHERE do I bash Jews. I certainly criticise Israel's policies wrt the Occupied Palestinian Territories, as well as Israel's foreign policies wrt ALL her neighbours - but I have NEVER singled out Judaism as the culprit - just the warmongering chickenhawks who run the damn place!

    But of course - this ability to differentiate between a people and their government/religion is lost on most here!! ;)

    So, I will continue to post Israeli press items here, which would never see the light of day in our so-called Free Press...

    and if certain posters here want to whine - then I'll simply pass them the cheese!

  14. Inconsistant? Cognitive? Wild wild west? At least try to live in this century.

    Yes I know you are comfortable with lies and hypocracy of your leaders. If you support it, then I am going to draw the conclusion that you are a hypocrite and a liar as well. Please tell me if I am wrong here.

    You are SO not wrong!!

    But, hey at least BC is the 'what ya see is what ya get' kinda guy - that way one doesn't have to waste time on him.

    As far as Kucinich's impeachment - it won't go anywhere - Bush will escape the courts, never pay for his crime and probably retire to some south american country just like war criminals of the past. I wonder -will Kissinger be joining him?


  15. Buffy, why do you hate Jews?

    I don't 'hate' any group in particular. I certainly don't like extremists of any form though.

    Care to comment on the articles posted - or will you simply do as you always do and attempt character assassination with unfounded statements like the one above?

    BTW - kinda hard to hate parts of one's own heritage - ohh wait - according to Rue that must make me a 'self-hating' 'anti-semite'!!


    Now, whitedoors - sadly I don't 'hate'. I feel sad that these folks allow themselves to hate so much. I also feel, that a good friend doesn't let another drive drunk - they tell them when they are behaving badly - they don't just offer platitudes and tell the drunk that all is fine.

    If I am critical of Canada's government am I 'anti-canadian'? If I am critical of what certain Muslim radical clerics spout out about am I 'anti-mulsim'? If I am critical of the Catholic Church am I 'anti-Catholic'?

    Silly boy.

  16. Orthodox Jewish Youth burn New Testaments in Israel

    After receiving complaints, Aharon said, he got into a loudspeaker car last Thursday and drove through the neighborhood, urging people to turn over the material to Jewish religious students who went door to door to collect it.

    The books were dumped into a pile and set afire in a lot near a synagogue, he said.

    Gee... that reminds me of something... wait though there is more intolerance reminiscent of the same thing here:

    Rabbi says deaf 'ineligible for conversion'

    Anyone inflicted with a severe hearing and speech impediment cannot undergo Jewish conversion. This harsh statement was recently made by Rabbi Avraham Sherman of the Chief Rabbinical Court, in a ruling now made public.

    Gosh, I recall others in the past who looked down upon the deaf and mute.

    Anyway, as these two recent events show, all is not sunny and tolerant in Israel these days. Who'd of thought that the extremists there would resemble so closely the extremists of the past. I guess they have truly become what they hate. Mirror image.

    Very sad.


  17. I posted it here first so it's "cross-posting" only as to vivelecanada. Complain over there.

    really? Says on the page you posted it at around 9:09 am on the 26th, and this one at 11:36... hmmm.

    Not that it really matters eh. Could be a time difference between forums I suppose. Still though - as you well know crossposts are against the rules here jbg (not that that hasn't stopped you before! ;) ).


  18. Lol. He is. Look in the ideal world he should not have been deported simply because of his political opinions. Problem is his trip was organized by Hamas and his agenda was to go to the West Bank and engage in a deliberately provocative series of comments to trigger off extremist Jewish settlers and Palestinians fighting one another.

    Rue, that is simply NOT true. He was going to the West Bank to visit a friend of his, who happens to work for B'TSelem.

    CBC Radio Norman's interview starts at around 16:40.

    And you have the gall to talk about 'honesty'. Yet, you supply NO links (you rarely ever do) just lines and lines of your own opinion, however skewed that may be. Fact is, Rue, this time you have been caught - outright. Finkelstein's visit had nothing at all to do with Hamas.

    There are many self-loathing Jewish foreigners who actually live in Israel and do nothing but engage in anti-semitic commentary. The difference is they do not travel to the West Bank and do not have the high profile he does.
    Care to name a few so I can debunk this as well?? Or is any Israeli who is critical of their governments' policies vis a vis the Occupied Palestinian Territories simply a 'self-hater' according to you (what a stupid term that is BTW, appealing to the emotion with NO shred of evidence).
    The reality is if he was an extremist ultra right week racist Jew going to the West Bank they would have given him the boot too. Its not so much his opinion. The fact that he is very anti-Israel is not so much the factor as it is his extreme views which would provoke incitement and endanger both Israelis and Palestinians.

    What like the Kahanists? Lot's of them in the West Bank, hey they ain't being booted out Rue, they are being protected by the IDF!! Again - innuendo and outright LIES. Do you even know anything about Dr. Finkelstein? Ever read any of his books or papers? Hmmm?? No? Didn't think so - that much is clear from your comments so far.

    In regards to his specific opinions he's been dismissed by academics because of quoting non existent references or misquoting references or presenting subjective opinions as facts. But then he is a political scientist not an historian so while his technical academic methods are extremely lacking they are not as significant as if he were claiming to he an historian. He doesn't.

    Again, not true. Care to point out the errors? Care to include a link to these so-called scholars? Could you mean Alan (yes I approve of torture) Dershowitz?? You know, the guy who 'copied' most of 'From Time Immemorial' by Joan Peters - and even got some of his own 'quotes wrong' (not that it matters since Peter's work has already been discredited?

    What he has done, is to argue that those who discuss the holocaust, do so in a way to explout it to justify the existence of Israel. To do this, hetakes other peoples' works and counter argues using such claims. He also makes accusations that not just Israelis but all Jews are involved in a financial conspiracy to misrepresent the holocaust for financial gain. The problem is when he has done this he presents subjective remarks without reference and tries to suggest they are facts. When he has made references to his arguments, they have been exposed as false, or misquoted. Not all of them, but enough of them to give serious question to his credibility.

    Absolutely not true at all, again Rue. You however always lump all Jews together - under the umbrella of extremist zionist Israel. Thanks, but no thanks - I don't personally beleive that Israel represents the hopes or desires of ALL Jews. Nor do I think that the Holocaust is an excuse to inflict collective punishment on other peoples - which it is used as to silence any discussion of Israel's rather nazi like tactics wrt the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Have you even read 'The Holocaust Industry'? If you ever do, you will notice that there are almost more footnotes and references than there is of the written book itself. You should give it a read Rue. Really. There is no doubt that the memory of the Holocaust is certainly used by 'some' to end all discussion on the illegal acts of the rogue nation named Israel, and it does a disservice to all - the survivors (who never see their reparations monies) and to the victims of the Nazi regime as well.

    Because he is the son of a holocaust survivor he has become the most quoted anti-semite next to Naom Chomsky his mentor. Every neo-Nazi quotes him arguing since he is a Jew he can't be criticized. They say since he is a Jew, his anti-semitism is acceptable.

    Ahhh! LOL I was wondering when you'd spit out your favourite accussation: ANTI SEMITE!! What total nonsense - as also used to stifle discussion! Well done Rue, you fall into that trap all the time. BTW - both his parents were survivors. You might just want to educate youself a little about him and his roots. Many of us have lost family to the camps durring that time - does that make all of us who are critical of the State of Israel anti-semites? Or are we all self-haters? What nonsense Rue - your spin is usually (though not that often) better than that.

    The point is the only reason he has gained as much attention as he has is precisely because he is a Jew. If he was anything but a Jew he would have been dismissed as a sad anti-semite.

    Ironically the argument that a Jew can't be anti-semitic is in itself an anti-semitic concept in that it makes a gross generalization about all Jews being the same and therefore can then be used negatively against them and its precisely why David Duke and so many other avid anti-semites and Hamas and the President of Iran embrace him.

    He has repeatedly been caught misquoted Hanah Arendt, Eli Wiesel (holocaust survivo) and Jerzi Kosinzki (non Jewish holocaust survicor, Polish)and likes to quote David Irving a holocaust denier verbatum.

    Cite? (oh and nicely done - 4 'anti-semites' and one reference to Duke and Irving - trying out guilt by association now? Even though Norman has NOTHING to do with either of these men?? LMAO - pretty weak there Rue - but hey whatever floats your boat eh?

    He has openly called for Israel being dismantled and encouraging Hamas to continue to engage in terror to achieve its political goals.

    Cite? Again - nothing but a pack of lies Rue. He has NEVER encouraged anyone to engage in 'terror'. He is a stauch supporter of the two state solution - within the framework similar to the Arab League's 2002 initiative. Good grief - do you only get your opinion of him from the likes of Dershowitz and mags like 'Forward'??

    Why don't you go on down to your local library and get out a copy of 'Beyond Chutzpah'. It is a very well researched, and well written account of how history can be abused and the term anti-semite (one of your faves) is misused.

    Edited to add this link to Dr. Finkelstein's website, for those here who have minds that aren't already shut tight with their fingers in their ears screeching 'la la la'.


  19. Well jbg, I have to give it to you - this particular forum seems to have found alot more to say about your little essay than the other forum that you posted this at.

    I consider Zionism to be an exercise in self-determination, similar to what many anti-Western groups lobby for. The difference is that many who support other groups' "self-determination" do so only when it is harmful to the West's interests.

    The Jews tried living in the Diaspora as citizens of host countries. With the exception of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and, intermittently, the United Kingdom that didn't work out so well. We all know the finale, but the prelude was centuries of off and on persecutions of Jews. Ironically, just as full legal rights were extended to Jews in the 1880's in most non-English speaking countries (the US extended full rights from inception through the early 1830's and Britain did in 1831, thus covering the Empire) all hell broke loose. France's L'Affaire Dreyfusse got its start, I believe, in 1892, the same year as Russia's Kisinev Pogroms. This helped jump-start the Zionist movement, or the movement for a Jewish republic.

    At the same time, other peoples, such as the Poles, the Lithuanians, etc. began to lobby for self-determination. Most got their wish after WW I when the Russian, German and Austro-Hungarian empires were dismembered. The Jews got a vague promise from the British, the Balfour Declaration. The events of WW II led to the formation of the State of Israel, largely, in my opinion, since the Jewish survivors of the concentration camp could not return to their (expropriated) homes and businesses, and the murderous intent of their "hosts" was clear and obvious.

    Zionists have as much right as any other people to "self-determination". The Arabs have plenty of their own countries:








    Saudi Arabia;





    Yemen; and


    In addition they have significant influence, verging on control, in Lebanon. There are plenty of other non-Arab Muslim countries:





    Uzbekistan (sp);






    Somalia; and

    a few other former Soviet Socialist Republics that escape me

    The attempts to demonize Israel are, to me, an attempt to say that there should not be a Jewish state.

    tsk tsk

    Cross posting again huh?

  20. I think the same re: some of your links. You've never been able to show me anywhere where Memri is deemed suspect...but OK. However, this one suggests the opinions are different depending if you're the poor sucker getting you clitoris removed. Meanwhile, the male does his best to justify the practice. She asks....'do you have a daughter??' He responds 'no' but he would have the clitoris removed if it was 'deemed needed'.

    I wonder who deems THAT? Being that I can't think of one reason to remove a healthy young lady's clitoris. Take a chance...watch it.


    I confront the European elite's self-image as tolerant 'while under their noses women are living like slaves.

    ---Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    Well Doggie here's one:


    But of course you will dismiss it since Finkelstein is of course a 'self-hater' eh?

    Don't know why I bother?

    Memri is well known to mistranslate or embellish on thier own much of what they report as neutral'.

    And, PuppieonPorch, I shouldn't have to do YOUR research for you.

    Learn a REAL trick or two.

  21. Oh, pick me, pick me! I love vague questions which make heaping generalisations about any group of people....

    Okay, so I think "the left" should get together for a conference and congratulate themselves (ourselves?) for achieving human-rights for all, and their (our?) continued efforts to make sure those "less equal than others" aren't forgotten within the equality formula.

    Loved the sarcasm BC Chick!

    It was a nice break from the remainder of the thread...

    As to the question of what the left should do...

    Stop thinking in such confined boxes like 'left', 'right' or 'whatever'.

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