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The Coward of Caledonia?


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rolleyes.gif dry.gif sure ... whatever! laugh.gif laugh.gif

Like I said, seems very familiar.

So you concede the point I've made? It looks like you do since your only response is to retreat into childish meaningless posts. Nice technique, gonna be influencing a lot of people with that style of debate.

Well done!

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Well that account doesn't really match anything I've heard before about the bridge. Reading it is almost like reading a story invented for children, happy ending and all. This is what I mean when I say continuously changing childish reasons are given for such behaviour. It's also the reason I cant accept anything First Nations say at face value. My ex was part Algonquin (one of my ex's, I've got a few), I actually got to see the thought process in action on a personal level when her relatives and friends would visit. And yes, mention was made sometimes about how to obtain more money and power, nothing about righting historical wrongs. Just another reason why I have zero respect for these people. Their behaviour has certainly done nothing to sway my opinion lately.

I am picking up this thread where it was before it was derailed ...

Angus, you have just identified the source of your anger at Aboriginal people and it has nothing to do with land claims, law, whatever: It's personal.Perhaps you should look past your own experience and not paint all Aboriginal people with the same broad brush. Most men just all hate women after a breakup, not a whole race too. ;)

We cannot deny the legitimacy of their claims. Why they pursue them, what they hope to gain is their business, not ours. If someone steals my lawnmower, I do not have to give an explanation about why I want it back. If I don't need it but just want it back for the power of controlling the person who stole it ... doesn't matter ... it's mine, that's all. If I choose to use it for parts, turn it into a go-kart, let it sit and rust, doesn't matter ... it's mine to do with as I please.

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I am picking up this thread where it was before it was derailed ...

Angus, you have just identified the source of your anger at Aboriginal people and it has nothing to do with land claims, law, whatever: It's personal.Perhaps you should look past your own experience and not paint all Aboriginal people with the same broad brush. Most men just all hate women after a breakup, not a whole race too. ;)

ARE YOU SERIOUS? Now who's prejudiced??!!

How you could come up with such a total non sequitur is frankly amazing! And to twist it into some kind of "proof" for your reasoning by saying that Angus is merely being emotional and that's why he doesn't believe you...

I'm flabbergasted! And as a man I'm very insulted! How can you say that after a breakup most men hate all women? Seems more a reflection of what kind of men have been in your social circle, if you ask me! I've never known ANY man to have taken such a totally illogical view! They may have specifically hated their ex but the idea of all women being evil would not only not have occurred to them, if you had suggested it they would have laughed at you! Maybe you should find a different crowd.

Madam, you should get some help!

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Angus, you have just identified the source of your anger at Aboriginal people and it has nothing to do with land claims, law, whatever: It's personal.Perhaps you should look past your own experience and not paint all Aboriginal people with the same broad brush. Most men just all hate women after a breakup, not a whole race too. wink.gif

Oops! Sorry Joan, you missed on that one!

I actually have pretty good relationships with my ex's, all except one. I send gifts at Christmas and on birthdays to my little ex-part-Algonquin girl and her daughter. When we've talked recently she's even asked about us trying again. I'm tempted but said no. She has a pretty major drinking problem that I cant accept. I certainly don't hate her or wish her ill. You may be interested to know that she was as equally disgusted as myself when her relatives and friends would discuss various scams to fleece the government.

Wow! Kinda puts a damper on your whole six nations are saintly proposal doesn't it. Her brother is actually a major power in the area of Aboriginal health, he does some pretty intense lobbying for increased benefits. On some issues I agree with him however I can not agree with his goal of total support for perpetuity. Hell, they even dragged me up to Caledonia one time when it all started. I ended up hitch-hiking home I was so disgusted with what I saw and heard.

So Joan the lesson to be learn't here is never assume, it'll turn around and bite you in the ass if you do, like now actually. Oh, and by the way. These are some of the reasons I don't believe the propaganda coming from six nations. It's pretty hard to snow someone who has seen the reality in action don't cha know.

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We cannot deny the legitimacy of their claims. Why they pursue them, what they hope to gain is their business, not ours. If someone steals my lawnmower, I do not have to give an explanation about why I want it back. If I don't need it but just want it back for the power of controlling the person who stole it ... doesn't matter ... it's mine, that's all. If I choose to use it for parts, turn it into a go-kart, let it sit and rust, doesn't matter ... it's mine to do with as I please.

Lame analogy, and I believe it or something similar was used by someone who was banned quite some time ago.

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Sorry ... no link to article. Here's the link to the paper (subscription required)

http://www.theturtleislandnews.com/

This will provide you with another side of the story, since the mainstream media just doesn't 'get it'.

Turtle Island News, Six Nations: Editorial

Ontario offered nothing, HDI fills void

For the first time in 200 years Six Nations has begun to exert its jurisdiction over land it owns within the Haldimand Tract, that's land 10 km (or six miles) on either side of the Grand River.

And that has Ontario throwing a hissy fit.

Ontario wasn't overly concerned with Six Nations huffing and puffing about jurisdiction, land claims or sovereignty.

To Ontario those are nice little political catch phrases that have meant nothing to the province as it continues on its merry way to develop Six Nations lands, without permission, and selling and buying Six Nations land without permission.

But the political landscape has changed. Canada's Supreme court has ordered governments to consult with First Nations in cases of land disputes or where they have an aboriginal interest in the land.

And that has Ontario kicking and screaming. For the first time they actually have to talk to First Nations people in Ontario, the province with the largest population of First Nations people, but the province with the least interest in working with First Nations and talking to them, until now, when the courts ordered them to.

And despite the Supreme Court order, Ontario is still trying to wiggle out of its obligation to consult and there lies the rub.

Instead of talking to Six Nations and working with them on a plan for lands under dispute, Ontario would rather hold a press conference and decry only Ontario municipalities can issue development fees. Yet Ontario doesn't bother to explain when it got permission from Six Nations in the first place to issue any kind of fees on Six Nations lands along the Grand.

And it launches a misinformation campaign to Ontario voters that continues to leave them in the dark about Six Nations and other First Nations rights. In fact the campaign is bordering on terrorist activities. Instead, just like the Mafia style extortion tactics it accuses First Nations of, Ontario is using mainstream media who also don't understand their news stories aren't news, but propaganda that they too are spewing, simply because no one in Ontario wants to admit that in fact maybe, just maybe Six Nations is right.

Because if Six Nations is right, so are all the other First Nations.

The Six Nations Confederacy Council came up with a plan. A plan that brings all the parties to the table and invokes a disciplined policy that satisfies both the developers involved and allows for Six Nations interests.

Ontario offered nothing. Because Ontario failed to fill the void, Six Nations did. Rather than see development stop up and down the Grand as frustration continues to grow among Six Nations people tired of no resolution to their long outstanding land claims, the Confederacy Council put in place a policy and plan that works with all the parties involved.

And that no doubt irritates Ontario who wants to decide for Six Nations what 'consultation' will be.

The attitude is paternalistic, smacks of political terrorism with the threat of OPP hanging over First Nations heads, but McGuinty grabbed a headline and satisfied the very small but vocal group of misguided individuals in Caledonia who's only gripe is no one has bought their houses, in their peaceful neighbourhood for the outrageous prices they have set on them, (some three times what the property is worth).

The local economy is damaged not because of any Reclamation but because of the antics of Caledonia residents themselves. As a result of their road blocks, harassment, assaults, racism and threats, Six Nations people stopped shopping in that town, a town that suddenly realized that they exist because of Six Nations money. Talk about extortion rackets. Ontario wrote the book, implemented laws to justify their actions and then whined when Six Nations said enough is enough!

.............................

A different story than you will hear from our governments and our media.

Canada has no claim to the land, because Canada defaulted on payment and the Haldimand Tract land reverts to Six Nations, according to the original agreements. However, the negotiators won't tell the truth because the governments won't, so Six Nations is telling the truth to all people living in their jurisdiction, and they are asserting rights to have a say in development and a share in revenues.

I say ... good for them! Because our governments will NEVER tell us the truth!

Even though we all as citizens have to be aware ... sometimes they lie, or fail to tell the whole truth ... no different ... to the court they are both lies ... our courts ... are not entirely bad ... but our governments are.

imo :rolleyes:

Now I have a few links to find for documents you may want to check out. ;)

- The supposed 1841 land surrender No. 50 pages 119, 120, 121, 122 & 123.

http://www.canadiana.org/ECO/PageView?id=6...play=91942+0204

What was surrendered was not ownership, but management of the lands, for the benefit of Six Nations. None of the terms of the leases and mortgages were ever kept (i.e., payments), so the land reverts to Six Nations according to the lease and mortgage agreements.

I understand now why the developers are not pursuing litigation against the HDI, etc.: They have been advised they will lose. The law in Ontario, and the Supreme Court in Canada are coming through with the straight goods.

Canadians listen up ...

... a say in development, a share of revenues in their territory.

Edited by joan
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Here's an interesting twist for a provincial government that declares that the Haudenosaunee Development Institute should be ignored by municipalities approving development:

Haldimand's Official Plan delayed until consultation with Six Nations complete.

The HDI is the planning branch of the Six Nations Confederacy and Haldimand township must consult with them before their 20 year development plan will be approved by the province. This would appear to be yet another lie the provincial government finds itself in. They can't suggest that no one consult with Six Nations (through the HDI) and then turn around and tell municipalities that they must consult BEFORE development is approved. Yet the province also says that they do not want lands claims shown on the plan.......They are merely doing the ostriche where it concerns lands rights.

The next time Six Nations stops a development it is perhaps prudent to squarely blame the Province. They have the capacity to avoid future problems and yet simply ignore their legal responsibility to a degree that Six Nations MUST stop development on their lands.

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Some of know who kengs333 is in real life and he is nothing resembling a historian. Rather he definitely has a history but it is not welcomed in most parts of Ontario.

Like I said earlier. He is very transparent.

Charter I have been told to cool it when responding to the above person and I am genuinely trying to follow what the moderator said because I appreciate what the moderator is trying to say to me is more for my sake but I regret the above very much and it has been bothering me for some time and I hope it comes to some resolution.

I thin k the vast majority of us on this board genuinely try to be above board as to who we are and what are views are and try to be respectful and have no hidden agendas.

I hope you and Joan or anyone else does not make the mistake I did and that is to get baited.

I think what I have been reminded is to challenge the words being said and leave the rest to the moderators and I am trying.

In this issue I urge people to debate the issues and not the people which is what I am also trying to do.

I am not sure what it is but with aboriginal issues it always seems to somehow turn into a very emotional debate questioning peoples' motives.

I do not question for one second some of the people who have expressed their views are not motivated by hatred for aboriginals but for what they feel is an issue unfairly imposed on them. I also do not question for one second that the motive for the vast majority aboriginal peoples just like the vast majority of non aboriginals on the either side of this debate this is not about in your face confrontation or racist taunts its about trying to find mutual respect and a way to co-exist with mutual respect.

As for those with an agenda to spread hatred and prevent this, I hope as you say Charter their transparency is evident and is not allowed to contaminate a peaceful process towards resolution of these problems.

As peaceful as I am in ideology, I have my warrior side too as we all do. I also doubt if I was in the shoes of aboriginals I could be as restrained as so many of them have been and I say the same about those on the other side of the debate who have not resorted to taunts and name calling.

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Here's an interesting twist for a provincial government that declares that the Haudenosaunee Development Institute should be ignored by municipalities approving development:

Haldimand's Official Plan delayed until consultation with Six Nations complete.

The HDI is the planning branch of the Six Nations Confederacy and Haldimand township must consult with them before their 20 year development plan will be approved by the province. This would appear to be yet another lie the provincial government finds itself in. They can't suggest that no one consult with Six Nations (through the HDI) and then turn around and tell municipalities that they must consult BEFORE development is approved. Yet the province also says that they do not want lands claims shown on the plan.......They are merely doing the ostriche where it concerns lands rights.

The next time Six Nations stops a development it is perhaps prudent to squarely blame the Province. They have the capacity to avoid future problems and yet simply ignore their legal responsibility to a degree that Six Nations MUST stop development on their lands.

I think, to be fair, I have to say that Dalton has told developers to consult with the HDI, just not to pay them. Interesting that he is now incorporating HDI into the formal process of municipal planning. Excellent! That is what is needed to resolve disputes before they start!

AND it is the LAW !

So ... He had better make this the requirement for all other municipalities too!

And he'd better shut up about not paying them too: All the municipal people in those discussion are being paid! <_<

Edited by joan
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No, as your link clearly states more than once, the land was to be disposed of.

For the benefit of Six Nations ... funds to be placed in their trust account, which the government 'managed' as trustee.

Whatever was not paid for is still their land. Very few payments were made, and money was embezzled from their account without permission. That is why the land in the Haldimand Tract is still theirs.

Six Nations has been asking for an accounting of their trust fund for decades, possibly more than a century, and the government has not done it yet! WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU??

Edited by joan
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ARE YOU SERIOUS? Now who's prejudiced??!!

How you could come up with such a total non sequitur is frankly amazing! And to twist it into some kind of "proof" for your reasoning by saying that Angus is merely being emotional and that's why he doesn't believe you...

I'm flabbergasted! And as a man I'm very insulted! How can you say that after a breakup most men hate all women? Seems more a reflection of what kind of men have been in your social circle, if you ask me! I've never known ANY man to have taken such a totally illogical view! They may have specifically hated their ex but the idea of all women being evil would not only not have occurred to them, if you had suggested it they would have laughed at you! Maybe you should find a different crowd.

Madam, you should get some help!

See the ;) ?

It was a joke!

get a grip. :rolleyes:

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Oops! Sorry Joan, you missed on that one!

I actually have pretty good relationships with my ex's, all except one. I send gifts at Christmas and on birthdays to my little ex-part-Algonquin girl and her daughter. When we've talked recently she's even asked about us trying again. I'm tempted but said no. She has a pretty major drinking problem that I cant accept. I certainly don't hate her or wish her ill. You may be interested to know that she was as equally disgusted as myself when her relatives and friends would discuss various scams to fleece the government.

Wow! Kinda puts a damper on your whole six nations are saintly proposal doesn't it. Her brother is actually a major power in the area of Aboriginal health, he does some pretty intense lobbying for increased benefits. On some issues I agree with him however I can not agree with his goal of total support for perpetuity. Hell, they even dragged me up to Caledonia one time when it all started. I ended up hitch-hiking home I was so disgusted with what I saw and heard.

So Joan the lesson to be learn't here is never assume, it'll turn around and bite you in the ass if you do, like now actually. Oh, and by the way. These are some of the reasons I don't believe the propaganda coming from six nations. It's pretty hard to snow someone who has seen the reality in action don't cha know.

I am not interested in your personal life. :rolleyes:

I was just pointing out your use of the "broadbrush" in ascribing motives to ALL ABORIGINAL PEOPLE based on your experience with a few.

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Sorry, wrong quote here. It should have been. I am not interested in your personal life.

Nice. You always retreat into the same defence when shown how full of waste products you are. I'd say you are interested since I was answering a comment you made that most certainly beyond any shadow of a doubt concerned my personal life. Not only that, without knowing the first thing about me you decided you knew what motivates me. Man! You are such a hypocrite.

By the way, you never responded to my statement about your use of the term "people like that", why not? Oh, thats right, silly question. You didn't have to. It was obvious that you were once again being a hypocrite.

I was just pointing out your use of the "broadbrush" in ascribing motives to ALL ABORIGINAL PEOPLE based on your experience with a few.

Would that be anything at all like your use of the "broadbrush" when talking about non aboriginal white people? More hypocrisy, keep it up, gotta love consistency.

Edited by AngusThermopyle
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I am not sure what it is but with aboriginal issues it always seems to somehow turn into a very emotional debate questioning peoples' motives.

There is a group of racist trolls who populate discussion boards to bait people and to promote their particular form of hatred. Their online home is stormfront.org. They are self-declared "white nationalists" who believe Canada should be a whiteman's country only.

There are other paid agitators who also populate public discussion boards to promote their handlers' agenda, usually a corporate agenda.

THAT is why every discussion about Aboriginal issues turns into a melee: because there are people who seek out such discussions to intentionally attack aboriginal people. It is either their (pathetic) 'life' or their livelihood.

You can tell who they are: when confronted with their lie, they will turn around and say the same lie again tomorrow. It isn't about discussing and learning for them, but about imposing a rigid anti-native agenda on ALL Canadians. It is about sustaining systemic racism, for the cause of the white supremacists, or the corporations, or the governments, and in some cases the churches.

I am pleased to hear you say the moderator is aware that such trolls are here to bait people. I am glad to know they are not the ones running the board. ;)

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You can tell who they are: when confronted with their lie, they will turn around and say the same lie again tomorrow.

You must be talking about Six Nations.

I really find your discriminatory judgemental manner to be a bit disturbing. You should realize that no one particular race is superior to another. Lack of such understanding is the first step towards racism, you shouldn't go there.

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Whatever was not paid for is still their land. Very few payments were made, and money was embezzled from their account without permission. That is why the land in the Haldimand Tract is still theirs.

They would be entitled to the amount of the trust unless the subsequent surrender (in '43 if I recall) said otherwise.

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Nice. You always retreat into the same defence when shown how full of waste products you are. I'd say you are interested since I was answering a comment you made that most certainly beyond any shadow of a doubt concerned my personal life. Not only that, without knowing the first thing about me you decided you knew what motivates me. Man! You are such a hypocrite.

By the way, you never responded to my statement about your use of the term "people like that", why not? Oh, thats right, silly question. You didn't have to. It was obvious that you were once again being a hypocrite.

Would that be anything at all like your use of the "broadbrush" when talking about non aboriginal white people? More hypocrisy, keep it up, gotta love consistency.

I AM a non-aboriginal white woman. :rolleyes::lol:

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You must be talking about Six Nations.

I really find your discriminatory judgemental manner to be a bit disturbing. You should realize that no one particular race is superior to another. Lack of such understanding is the first step towards racism, you shouldn't go there.

I am not talking about a race. I am talking about aho's. They come in all colours. :lol:

However, I was referring to self identified white nationalists, as above. If the shoe fits ... ?

Otherwise, I am not talking about you. Your choice.

Edited by joan
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They would be entitled to the amount of the trust unless the subsequent surrender (in '43 if I recall) said otherwise.

Certainly ... except none of the settlers paid their mortgages or leases, so all agreements are in default and the land HAS ALREADY reverted to Six Nations, according to the terms of the leases and mortgages arranged by the government. See?

And the government has not provided an accounting of Six Nations trust fund, so they are not negotiating in good faith toward even a financial settlement, because it is too big for our govs/us taxpayers to handle. See?

So Six Nations is asserting jurisdiction, wants a say in development and a share of revenues. This is a much less drastic, more collaborative approach than bankrupting the province.

As they say, "We are all still going to be here". Gotta work it out. No question about that.

Edited by joan
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I am not talking about a race. I am talking about aho's. They come in all colours.

That being the case you should realize that no one particular aho is superior to another. Lack of such understanding is the first step towards aho'ism, you shouldn't go there.

Edited by AngusThermopyle
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That being the case you should realize that no one particular aho is superior to another. Lack of such understanding is the first step towards aho'ism, you shouldn't go there.

Well the particular group I was referring to above are those who call themselves "white nationalists".

The choice of racializing their identity is theirs, not mine.

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There is a group of racist trolls who populate discussion boards to bait people and to promote their particular form of hatred. Their online home is stormfront.org. They are self-declared "white nationalists" who believe Canada should be a whiteman's country only.

There are other paid agitators who also populate public discussion boards to promote their handlers' agenda, usually a corporate agenda.

THAT is why every discussion about Aboriginal issues turns into a melee: because there are people who seek out such discussions to intentionally attack aboriginal people. It is either their (pathetic) 'life' or their livelihood.

You can tell who they are: when confronted with their lie, they will turn around and say the same lie again tomorrow. It isn't about discussing and learning for them, but about imposing a rigid anti-native agenda on ALL Canadians. It is about sustaining systemic racism, for the cause of the white supremacists, or the corporations, or the governments, and in some cases the churches.

I am pleased to hear you say the moderator is aware that such trolls are here to bait people. I am glad to know they are not the ones running the board. ;)

So now it's "white nationalists" and not "white supremacists". Funny how the pro-Indian side always has to attach a supposed skin colour to their opponents.

In terms of trolls, it's interesting that you would make such an assertion. I suppose you're aware of the fact that the moderators are also aware of your presence here, too.

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