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buffycat

And the Wall Came Down

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I would probably always be pissed off but do I keep sending my children and their children and their children to their deaths for a cause that cannot be won by violence and only serves to keep them in poverty?

Exactly, as long as they spend their money on bombs and rockets while ignoring the infrastructure and economy they will always be poor - and angry. Possibly this is what the leaders want, to keep them perpetually angry as a happier more contented population would not want war (we hope).

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Hamas has repeatedly offered a ceasefire, the most recent just a few weeks ago.

Israel doesn't negotiate with terrorists.

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Hamas will never recognize the legitimacy of the Zionist state that was founded on our land.

---Khaled Mashaal, Feb. 2006

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No, but I seem to recall a few Israelis planting bombs in the theatres and mailboxes of Cairo...

I'd be interested in seeing a link to these events.

-------------------------------------------

I don't like to watch my own movies. I fall asleep in my own movies.

---Robert De Niro

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buffycat: The siege of Gaza is Collective Punishment - and THAT is a WAR CRIME - period.

The streets are overflowing with sewage and feces, as the pumps are no longer working due to the power cuts.

The hospitals can no longer keep their patients alive and are faced with tragic decisions: Unplug the dialysis, or unplug the incubators (somehow I cannot see how a tiny newborn baby is a terrorist, or savage animal as some posters here seem to think).

Almost 100 sick Gazans have died as a result of the blockade - as a result of the blockade.

In January over 100 Palestinians (fighters and civilians - among them children) have been killed by IDF forces alone in Gaza (this is not taking into account the problems in the West Bank).

These are the facts of what is happening NOW.

As mentioned on the first page this could just as easily be pure Pallywood. According to Palestinian sources...lol. Diesel oil for hospital generators wasn't 'cut off'. Seems Arab engineers needed to 'reconfigure' the power supply...whatever that means...causing blackouts.

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Dave, although you took thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.

---HAL 9000

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As mentioned on the first page this could just as easily be pure Pallywood. According to Palestinian sources...lol. Diesel oil for hospital generators wasn't 'cut off'. Seems Arab engineers needed to 'reconfigure' the power supply...whatever that means...causing blackouts.

Your WaPo article aside, I think I have a little more faith in the Israeli sources I have been continually linking to. Since obviously you have not bothered to click on any of them (this is clear due to your comments) I will post one of the more recent news releases from B'TSelem:

24 Jan 2007: Israeli Human Rights Organizations: End the Siege on Gaza

We, Israeli human rights organizations, publicly support the joint Palestinian-Israeli international campaign to end the siege on the Gaza Strip immediately.

Although the toppling of the fence at the Egyptian border temporarily eased the stranglehold, the million and a half residents of Gaza still depend almost entirely on importation of goods, fuel, and electricity through crossings controlled by Israel. There is also concern that in response to the border breakthrough, Israel will step up punitive measures against the population.

As Israeli human rights organizations, we cannot remain silent while the siege continues, bringing in its wake a humanitarian crisis.

The firing of Qassam rockets at Israeli civilian targets is criminal and abhorrent. It is Israel’s duty to defend its citizens, but collectively punishing an entire civilian population, of which most are not involved in the hostilities and over half are under 14, is illegal, improper, and immoral.

Participating organizations: The Association for Civil Rights in Israel, B'Tselem – The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, Amnesty-Israel, Bimkom - Planners for Planning Rights, Gisha - Legal Center for Freedom of Movement, Hamoked: Center for the Defence of the Individual, The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel, Physicians for Human Rights-Israel, Yesh Din - Volunteers for Human Rights

B'TSelem

You can explore their site and perhaps then you may be actually ready to address what is clearly and undoubtedly collective punishment and a war crime.

Edited by buffycat

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Israel was built by terrorists. The King David Hotel and all that....

touche...

;)

Just wait, he'll drag the infamous Mufti up again (which of course is deflection and refusal to speak about the topic at hand! :)

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Just wait, he'll drag the infamous Mufti up again (which of course is deflection and refusal to speak about the topic at hand!

Is he a fake, buffy? Was Yasser Arafat not his nephew? Did he not command an army of Muslim volunteers in the Balkans? Was he not hunting chums with Himmler and Eichmann? Was he not one of the few to escape justice? Did he not go on to fan the flames of hate in 1947?

Meanwhile...seems like Pallywood to me. Totally constructed crisis. And Hamas still goose-steps and make the Nazi salute. Fascists. You're free to support them allllllllllll you want.

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She [first Hamas woman suicide bomber] is not going to be the last because the march of resistance will continue until the Islamic flag is raised, not only over the minarets of Jerusalem, but over the whole universe.

---Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar...(Sieg Heil!!)

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Israel was built by terrorists. The King David Hotel and all that....

Israel was built by hard work. Irgun and Stern are defunct. Hamas, Hezbollah...very much happenin' things. Besides, the Arabs had their own terrorists at the time as well...nice to imagine them all tending sheep and wot...but, that's not the way it was.

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Anti-Semitism is a noxious weed that should be cut out.

---President William H. Taft

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Speaking of terrorists...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2252619,00.html

The two bombers were from Gaza and appeared to have crossed into Egypt after the border wall was breached two weeks ago. From there they would have made their way through the deserts of northern Sinai and into southern Israel, a route that will severely embarrass the Egyptian government.

Good thing there's a wall...errr...

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Once you become predictable, no one's interested anymore.

---Chet Atkins

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Egypt is probably a mite worried too, heck Hamas is the Palestinian branch of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood. Guess what, that ole Brotherhood organized numerous demonstrations across Egypt last week to protest Israel's blockade (in response to Hamas's rocket attacks) What was that they were chanting oh yea:

"Arm us, train us and sends to Gaza," and "O rulers of Muslims, where is your honor, where is your religion?" The independent Egyptian daily Almasry Alyoum also described conversations between Hamas leader Khaled

Mashal and Mohammed Mahdi Akef, the Brotherhood's Supreme Guide, to coordinate their activities. "We will take to the streets and defend our brothers in Gaza, even if we are all tried in military courts," Mr. Akef was reported as saying. hmmm

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Israel was built by hard work. Irgun and Stern are defunct. Hamas, Hezbollah...very much happenin' things. Besides, the Arabs had their own terrorists at the time as well...nice to imagine them all tending sheep and wot...but, that's not the way it was.

Irgun and Stern turned into the IDF. The Arabs had their own terrosits? Name them. The Zionists were much more organised. The Arabs were completely off guard. They trusted the British and the British were not to be trusted.

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Irgun and Stern turned into the IDF. The Arabs had their own terrosits? Name them. The Zionists were much more organised. The Arabs were completely off guard. They trusted the British and the British were not to be trusted.

That would be Haganah = IDF

Typical Arab terrorist groups of the day: Muslim Brotherhood and the Fedayeen.

As mentioned, The Grand Mufti himself was responsible for much of rising tensions from the influx of 'Zionists' into British Palestine. It was he afterall that urged Himmler to do something about this migration of Jews from Europe to 'the Holy Land'. We call it 'The Final Solution' these days.

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Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.

---Muslim Brotherhood Oath

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The Arabs were completely off guard.

They were so off gaurd they were only able to attack on 3 or 4 fronts....

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They were so off gaurd they were only able to attack on 3 or 4 fronts....

Five fronts and from within...but who's counting?

:lol:

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This is not the first time that the Arab states, which organized the invasion of Palestine, have ignored a decision of the Security Council or of the General Assembly. The USSR delegation deems it essential that the council should state its opinion more clearly and more firmly with regard to this attitude of the Arab states toward decisions of the Security Council.

--- Andrei Gromyko, May 29, 1948

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Is he a fake, buffy? Was Yasser Arafat not his nephew? Did he not command an army of Muslim volunteers in the Balkans? Was he not hunting chums with Himmler and Eichmann? Was he not one of the few to escape justice? Did he not go on to fan the flames of hate in 1947?

See? More diversion wrt the original topic - the siege of Gaza and collective punishment. Typical misdirection.

That said, no one here has denied the Mufti!! I promise - I am not a Mufti Denier!! :blink: Still - this has little to do with the current actions of the Israeli administrations. Using the Nazi link is so weak.

Meanwhile...seems like Pallywood to me. Totally constructed crisis. And Hamas still goose-steps and make the Nazi salute. Fascists. You're free to support them allllllllllll you want.

Ummm, where dear Dog, have I ever said I support them? Hmmm??? Care to quote me on that puppy??

As far as Pallywood goes, my sources are pretty much all mainstream and often Israeli in origin - but don't let that stand in the way of a lovely adhominen - again using weak diversion tactics!! Also, typical of those who cannot support thier position with facts.

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That would be Haganah = IDF

The Haganah was an umbrella organisation for the various Zionist militias of the day. Some were pretty nasty and others not so much. After establishment of the state of Israel, everything was pretty much combined to form what we now know of as the IDF.

The Irgun itself was considered a terrorist organisation, and was led by Menachim Begin, whose rich history in Israeli politics cannot be denied!

Contacting the dormant Jewish underground, Irgun Zvai Leumi, Begin set about planning a Jewish uprising against the British authorities. This began in 1944, but increased in pace and scope immediately after World War II and continued until late 1947. Begin ordered many of the Irgun's operations, including the Akko prison breakout and the destruction of the central British administrative offices in the King David Hotel. Following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Begin disbanded the Irgun.

Hence to say there is no connection between the IDF and the early terrorist groups is beyond naive...

Now, tell me again what this has to do with the current collective punishment of over 1.5 million people? (Not mentioning the state of affairs within the West Bank here either - though Palestinian discontent and despair if rife there too!). Certainly you don't believe that every single one of them is some sort of 'terrorist' do you? Tell me you aren't that delusional and you have the ability to separate a ruling body from those who it rules - who may disagree with its actions.

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That said, no one here has denied the Mufti!! I promise - I am not a Mufti Denier!!

Still - this has little to do with the current actions of the Israeli administrations. Using the Nazi link is so weak.

When Hamas salutes their leaders...what do they do again? Yasser Arafat...who was his uncle and commander again? Why did Yasser change his name, anyways? Seems like a pretty continous thread to me. Denial.

Ummm, where dear Dog, have I ever said I support them? Hmmm??? Care to quote me on that puppy??

You're free to support them allllllllllll you want. As in: you have a choice. I choose Israel. They share most of my values as I noted earlier. Especially their beach culture...lol. Also, as soon as the wall was down, Israel had a suicide bomber attack. Seems the wall is needed....hey?

As far as Pallywood goes, my sources are pretty much all mainstream and often Israeli in origin - but don't let that stand in the way of a lovely adhominen - again using weak diversion tactics!! Also, typical of those who cannot support thier position with facts.

It has all the trademarks of a Hamas created crisis...complete with dying children in hospitals and baby milk factories across Gaza grinding to a halt.

The Irgun itself was considered a terrorist organisation, and was led by Menachim Begin, whose rich history in Israeli politics cannot be denied!

Who's denying? But they're quite defunct as I pointed out. Both groups were used as conventional units at the height of the 1948 War and were decimated in the process. Hamas and Hezbollah, however, are current functioning terrorist groups.

Now, tell me again what this has to do with the current collective punishment of over 1.5 million people? (Not mentioning the state of affairs within the West Bank here either - though Palestinian discontent and despair if rife there too!). Certainly you don't believe that every single one of them is some sort of 'terrorist' do you? Tell me you aren't that delusional and you have the ability to separate a ruling body from those who it rules - who may disagree with its actions.

Collective punishment. At least you have all the lingo down. The people of Gaza elected a terrorist group to represent them. That says a lot about them as a group. Those Palestinian Arabs who share my values can 'elect' them right out of office...I'll wait right here...shouldn't be long...ummmm. Cough, cough...well....soon enough...any day now. Oh, screw it...I'll be waiting in the bar.

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Suicide attacks and jihad reinforce national unity in the ranks. Our voice is one of struggle, of jihad and of suicide. Iraq could win if it equipped its citizens with explosive belts and turned them into human bombs.

---Sheik Ahmed Yassin

Edited by DogOnPorch

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I thought it was just the evil Israeli's that didn't want the Palestinian Homocide Bomber's. Amazing how the leftwing MSM have kept quiet about the Moslem wall's keeping the Palestinian, killers out of their Moslem land's.

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There is no way Egypt wants to take responsibility for 1.5 million Palestinians who will not only be a destabilizing factor in Egypt but insist on launching attacks at Israel from Egyptian soil to boot. Egypt doesn't want them any more than Israel and the same can be said for the other Arab countries in the area.

and palestinians also wont accept . as far as i know there is a land called palestine and the palestinians ll stay in their land fighting for their freedom no matter what that ll take.

Edited by marina

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Well done Israel!!

Over 100 tarrorist Palis killed!! Whooopeeee!! Half of them civilians - you know those terrorist babies?!

I gues the Holocaust of the Gazans is proceeding as planned!! Nice one, get em killers!!

http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20080303.asp

3 March 2008: Contrary to Israel's Chief of Staff, at least half of those killed in Gaza did not take part in the fighting

B'Tselem expresses grave concern at the large number of children and other uninvolved civilians among those killed and wounded in the Gaza Strip in recent days.

According to B'Tselem figures, from 27 February to the afternoon of 3 March, 106 Palestinians were killed in the Gaza Strip. Contrary to the Chief of Staff’s contention that ninety percent were armed, at least fifty-four of the dead (twenty-five of them minors) did not take part in the hostilities. In addition, at least forty-six minors were wounded.

***

:P

Edited by buffycat

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The Gaza Bombshell

With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, David Rose reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.
Vanity Fair has obtained confidential documents, since corroborated by sources in the U.S. and Palestine, which lay bare a covert initiative, approved by Bush and implemented by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams, to provoke a Palestinian civil war. The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America’s behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power.
Bush has met Dahlan on at least three occasions. After talks at the White House in July 2003, Bush publicly praised Dahlan as “a good, solid leader.” In private, say multiple Israeli and American officials, the U.S. president described him as “our guy.”
Edited by lost&outofcontrol

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I thought it was just the evil Israeli's that didn't want the Palestinian Homocide Bomber's. Amazing how the leftwing MSM have kept quiet about the Moslem wall's keeping the Palestinian, killers out of their Moslem land's.

Amazing how the terrorist supporters think that the wall should be kept open in order to kill more Israelis isn't it - very telling. Also amazing how they never condemn those rocket attack etc. oh yea - that's okay baby as long as it's Israelis being killed.

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Well done Israel!!

Over 100 tarrorist Palis killed!! Whooopeeee!! Half of them civilians - you know those terrorist babies?!

I gues the Holocaust of the Gazans is proceeding as planned!! Nice one, get em killers!!

As has been repeatedly pointed out by more erudite individuals than I, the Israelis have the absolute moral and legal right to defend themselves against attack.

It is not their fault the "government" of the Palestinian people insist on firing rockets across the border aimed at Israeli civilians - a war crime, btw.

Nor is it Israel's fault the Palestinian government, elected by the Palestinian people, insist on firing these rockets from civilian areas - another war crime, btw.

There is no government on the planet which would tolerate that kind of thing for very long, not Canada, not Sweden, not Japan, none.

It's too bad that innocent people die in the retaliation, but hey, maybe they shouldn't have elected religious wackos to office, eh?

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Amazing how the terrorist supporters think that the wall should be kept open in order to kill more Israelis isn't it - very telling. Also amazing how they never condemn those rocket attack etc. oh yea - that's okay baby as long as it's Israelis being killed.

Amazing how we can rationalize genocide by branding an entire people as terrorists? How can a people living under constant socio-economic oppression with no formal power outside its own border (a case could be made for internal as well) be termed as the aggressor?

Why are they firing rocket propelled grenades (rpg) and not other types of conventional weapons? One can trace the motivation behind suicide bombings by looking at the historical conditions which are specific to it: the complete elimination of al possible conscious expression of individuality and communal identity. This as the direct result of theft and destruction of all materiality through which life is manifested.

Suicide bombings and rpg attacks are not questions of ethics or lack thereof but of specific historical conditions. The use of ready made (media, governments, NGO etc…) concepts to investigate unique and specific situations should stop or else we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

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