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Zionism is an Example of National Self-Determination


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Nowhere in any Zionist doctrine does it state that the self-determination of Jews, or universal sufferage for Jews denies the self-determination of Palestinians. It never has.

The first Zionist Conference sent 3 rabbis to Palestine to investigate the possibility of re-establishing the nation of Israel. They telegrammed back: "The bride is beautiful, but she is married to someone else."

What did you think would happen after that?

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The first Zionist Conference sent 3 rabbis to Palestine to investigate the possibility of re-establishing the nation of Israel. They telegrammed back: "The bride is beautiful, but she is married to someone else."

What did you think would happen after that?

HisSelf continues to hold the belief that somewhere there is a time machine wherein all of today's problems can be solved by going back and preventing the United Nations from separating Palestine into two different nations.

Until that time he feels progress can best be made by heaping insults and punishment on the Jews.

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HisSelf continues to hold the belief that somewhere there is a time machine wherein all of today's problems can be solved by going back and preventing the United Nations from separating Palestine into two different nations.

Until that time he feels progress can best be made by heaping insults and punishment on the Jews.

I am always happy to engage in a spirited and respectful political debate with people who are politically engaged. Unfortunately, that does not seem to include you.

I am putting you in purgatory with M.Dancer and BushCheney2004.

Have you ever heard of a musical group called the Tin Hat Trio?

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I have the distinct feeling that HisSelf engages in debate mainly with Himself....I recommend he debate with his left hand so it seems like someone else...

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As I've said earlier though, right now Palestinians are practical and reasonable people and studies have shown again and again that they would accept a two-state solution.
Yes, they were very pragmatic when the Gazan blew up the greenhouses that the Israelis left behind.
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Yes, they were very pragmatic when the Gazan blew up the greenhouses that the Israelis left behind.

Oh that's childish and non-productive

"Johnny did this and Johnny did that". Get over it..in my family the abiltity to fogive quicly and move on quickly has sustained us. You really don't know who is blowing things up to cause instabilty. For instance - when I communicated with a former American intelligence officer he mention that there was an incident where American black opps set off a car bomb in Baghdad..and his report was falsified. You can not in realtiy truely know who is doing what..best to ignore the culprits no matter who or what. Move forward and do not react emotionally..the whole dark system is governed and controlled by emotion..it's old hat...don't let extremists or adventurers or profiteers cloud your mind.

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Oh that's childish and non-productive

"Johnny did this and Johnny did that". Get over it..in my family the abiltity to fogive quicly and move on quickly has sustained us.

No, you missed my point. The Israelis left behind beautiful, agriculturally productive greenhouses, and did not destroy them on the way out, hoping the Gazans would use them for something useful. Instead the Gazans blew them up.
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No, you missed my point. The Israelis left behind beautiful, agriculturally productive greenhouses, and did not destroy them on the way out, hoping the Gazans would use them for something useful. Instead the Gazans blew them up.

It was not all the Gazans just the fools - you can not look at the whole population as extremist pests..don't let the nuts win buddy--- not blowing up a green house is grand - to destoy beauty and something that sustains life is stupid..stupid Gazans should be centered out and persecuted through embarrassement..it must be stated that EXTREMIST are not the cream of the crop.

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Yes, they were very pragmatic when the Gazan blew up the greenhouses that the Israelis left behind.

I guess this is where I retort with an example of Israel being unpragmatic. Isn't it poetic the way this back-and-forth mirrors the tit-for-tat of the actual conflict? What are we? Sadists?

I know the stories you were raised on that Israel is the good guy that does no wrong. That there's something noble about what it's doing in Palestine. I remember briefing my class about the growth of Israel, marking out the areas it "gained" all happy like I was building up hotels in Monopoly. And I know it's hard when you find out your hero isn't what you though it was, I've been there, but I dealt with that a long time ago.

Fact is, the first step towards peace is for folks like yourself, and your equivalents on the other side, to stop looking at the situation as us vs. them, good guys vs. bad guys. After that, you can be honest with what's going on on both sides - that there's enough blood on everyone's hands to go around, and that both parties should really spend more time looking in the mirror instead of pointing fingers.

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I guess this is where I retort with an example of Israel being unpragmatic. Isn't it poetic the way this back-and-forth mirrors the tit-for-tat of the actual conflict? What are we? Sadists?

I know the stories you were raised on that Israel is the good guy that does no wrong. That there's something noble about what it's doing in Palestine. I remember briefing my class about the growth of Israel, marking out the areas it "gained" all happy like I was building up hotels in Monopoly. And I know it's hard when you find out your hero isn't what you though it was, I've been there, but I dealt with that a long time ago.

Fact is, the first step towards peace is for folks like yourself, and your equivalents on the other side, to stop looking at the situation as us vs. them, good guys vs. bad guys. After that, you can be honest with what's going on on both sides - that there's enough blood on everyone's hands to go around, and that both parties should really spend more time looking in the mirror instead of pointing fingers.

The term Smite...or properly said Shemite..means those decended from Shem which are the Arabs and the Jews..they are all form the same genetic lineage. I am getting real tired of this family feud that now disrupts the peace of a whole planet...I just wish they would make up and get over this bickering or destroy each other - one or the other...how did the bickering start? Was it all because one brother stole a basket of pears from the other? The Arabs make me sick and so do those pesky Jews - ENOUGH ALREADY. If I were their dad I would send them all to bed without supper and spank them into dellerium...why bother..they are all quite nuts and inbreed to the point of being dumber than a bagel covered in racid Arab goat cheese...someone should start a movement and boycott the Arabs and the Jews untill they behave.

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The term Smite...or properly said Shemite..means those decended from Shem which are the Arabs and the Jews..they are all form the same genetic lineage. I am getting real tired of this family feud that now disrupts the peace of a whole planet...I just wish they would make up and get over this bickering or destroy each other - one or the other...how did the bickering start? Was it all because one brother stole a basket of pears from the other? The Arabs make me sick and so do those pesky Jews - ENOUGH ALREADY. If I were their dad I would send them all to bed without supper and spank them into dellerium...why bother..they are all quite nuts and inbreed to the point of being dumber than a bagel covered in racid Arab goat cheese...someone should start a movement and boycott the Arabs and the Jews untill they behave.

Let me summarize that for you:

"I hate Jews and Muslims"

There, I saved everyone some time.

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And who are these anti-Western groups? The Tibetans? The Uygurs? The Chechens? Or is this just sucking up to the Neocons?

Sure, those people lobbied for self-determination, but aren't you glossing over some of the ugly realities of self-determination? For one thing, very few of these movements have a homogeneous population to liberate! For example, when Poland was reconstituted after WWI, the League of Nations determined that the new nation needed an outlet to the sea, and the Polish Corridor was created between Danzig and East Prussia. Most of the Germans living there either left of their own accord or were forced out. And today, the Kurds living in Northern Iraq want to be independent, but there are sizeable populations of Turkmen and Arabs that would be ethnically cleansed to make nationhood possible.

In Palestine, the Zionist Movement had that messy inconvenience of Arab populations living in most of the "Promised Land."

I know the list! When Menachem Begin started the movement to build settlements in the West Bank, this point that the Arabs should move out and go to one of the many Arab nations, was frequently raised. It overlooked the fact that if the Occupied Territories were annexed by Israel, they would either have to forcibly evict the Palestinians living there, or set up an apartheid system where Arabs would not have full rights of citizenship, since a large Arab population would dilute the Jewish State. This is why Israeli pragmatists want to give up most of the Occupied Territories - with a growing Arab population in those territories, Israel would have to choose between being a democratic state or a Jewish state.

You present an interesting series of comments. This person who supports Israel's right to exist appreciates your efforts in pointing out the pitfalls or practical limitations of any form of nationalism.

One of the reasons I particularly agree with your last sentence is the following. Israel made in my opinion a serious legal error when it breached international law and began administering West Bank Israeli settlers through its civilian government but continues to administer the remaining West Bank, i.e., Palestinians through its military governorship apperatus. Israel is technically not violating international law governing the West Bank through a military administration provided that military administration governs and applies the exact same laws to Israeli settlers as it does Palestinians.

The decision to split the rule and use two different legal standards is in violation of international law and its something the IDF specifically told the Israeli government not to do but was over-ruled on.

The practical reality was this. On the one hand you had terrorists coming in from the West Bank providing a security nightmare. That was one issue Israel had and still has. The other issue were Jewish Israeli settlers who argue the West Bank is part of Judea and Somaria which is rightfully their land robbed from them by Muslims. Its a biblical argument that incites and fuels religious fundamentalism and therefore extremism in not all but certain Jewish Israeli settlers. Those settlers hate the IDF. They despise them. One of the reasons Israel then placed Jewish settlers under civilian rule violating international law was because of the political conflict of the IDF having to battle its own citizens which it has done time and time again. It did not make for good political optics.

The powers that be in Israel said, lets kill two birds with one stone. We have a bunch of extremist Israelis who won't listen to us and we have a serious terror problem. Let's send them to the West Bank and isolate them from mainstream society where their extremist views are not going to mesh in Israel proper and by so doing we remove the problem and we can use them as a buffer against incoming terrorists.

That was what really led to the decision. It was a pragmatic attempt to dump an internal conflict and deal with terrorism at the same time.

The problem is it has exasperated the situation. It fueled terrorists and now Palestinians who were once apolitical found themselves of course assisting terrorists who they otherwise would not have, in response to the new settlers on what they perceive is their land.

That is the long and short of it. Technically the West Bank was part of the original League of Mandate promised to Jews for a homeland, but its also a place where Palestinians have always lived. Its also a place where the British flooded the area with non Palestinians from 1920-1948 in a bid to prevent a Jewish homeland.

The practical reality is many of the people of the West Bank are not true Palestinians. They came there from outside Palestine. In fact there are ancient jewish communities in the West Bank that have always been there since biblical days who have far more right to argue they are Palestinian then some of these people who now claim to be Palestinian and who are not Jewish.

That is not the issue. We can argue until doomsday as to whose history is more relevant or n ot relevant. Its not going to solve things. The practical reality is for their to be a comprehensive peace there needs to be another state for Palestinians other than Jordan which many Palestinians will not accept as their state even though it has a law of return for all displaced Palestinians (but not people born on the West Bank since 1988).

The practical reality is this as well. Neither Jordan or Israel wants terrorists in the West Bank. Both approved and were well aware that placing Jewish settlers would cause problems but also served their short term purposes of providing a buffer against terrorism and it has. These same Jewish settlers that fight with the IDF and Palestinians have also prevented numerous terrorist attacks. More to the point not all these Jewish settlers are extremists. Many are moderate people. They went there because they were dirt poor and were given tax subsidies to go leave there. It wasn't necessarily a religious thing for them.

Likewise not all Palestinians on the West Bank are terrorists. Most are simple dirt poor farmers. They became polarized first by the Jordanians then the Israelis. Tehy actually were quiet content to simply be a bunch of farmers able to sell their produce in Jordan or Israel.

The terrorists who exploit them, i.e., Islamic Jihad, Fatah Hawks, Hamas, Hezbollah ridicule them and have contempt for them.

The IDF is a reluctant middle man spat upon by both Jewish settlers and Palestinians.

The vast majority of Palestinians and Israelis on the West Bank keep to themselves.

If you venture out of your local zone the IDF might stop you, a terrorist might kill or stop you, etc.

The reality is just as you say Israel has never ever been interested in annexing the West Bank exactly for the reasons you say. It would diminish the majority margin of Jews within Israel which is ironically next to terrorism the biggest factor that threatens Israeli existence.

Ironically all terrorism has done is make Israel stronger and more capable of surviving. Without it as the pressing unifying factor, Israel's population naturally would have become majority Muslim. Terrorism and extremism fueled the expulsion of 700,000 Jews to Israel from the rest of the Middle East and segregated Palestinians into refugee camps. Those two developments were Arab not Israeli initiated. Ironically the Arab League that the use of Palestinians as captive pawns and the expulsion of Jews would hasten Israel's death, and it did the exact opposite and so has terrorism. It just unites people who would otherwise be fractured by huge internal debates as to who is a Jew.

The practical reality is if you want to live as a national state with a prevalent religious identity as all Muslim countries do and as Israel does, if you want to be democractic you have to assure the minority religious groups have the exact same legal rights. Israel has and does within Israel proper and in the Muslim world there is no attempt by any regime to be democratic and treat non Muslims as equals.

Where Israel's democracy is strained is it can not be a democracy and prevent Muslim Israelis from giving birth as they are and continuing to grow until they become the majority. So do you expel all non Jews to prevent this.

Israel will not do that. But what it will want to do is make a peace deal that sees Jews from the West Bank brought back to Israel, but in return, Palestinians and Israeli Muslims to take over the settlements Jews leave behind. It will also want safe borders to protect it from terrorist attacks. As much as people hate the wall put up, it actually has stopped terror attacks cold and actually makes it possible for the Israeli government to argue to its people it no longer needs Jewish settlers on the West Bank to protect it from terror attacks.

The practical reality is that wall, conceivably would come down after a prolonged period of time if there was no terrorism. Sometimes to resolve conflict you need to seperate the sides from one another clearly and let them live seperate and apart and cool down, before you then start establishing new networks of interaction on a non violent level, i.e., a common market, shared water and road projects.

The reality is pre-1967 Israel is a small land and will be sufficient in size for the Jews there now and the minorities who exist there now but no one else. The West Bank is needed as a new home for Palestinians who may not want to remain in camps.

The Arab League if it was genuinely interested in peace, would have disbanded all terror groups and its anti-semitic rhetoric years ago. It would have resettled all Palestinians who wanted to be resettled in Arab League nations and then financed a state in the West Bank and Gaza.

It has chosen not to and use the conflict as a distraction from the its own internal corupt regimes and serve as a scapegoat for its ills. That scapegoats Israel but it scapegoats Palestinians just as much.

Palestinians used to come into Israel and work until Hamas threatened people with death and destroyed all the grass-roots projects between Israelis and Palestinians. There is no reason that could not be established again.

There is no reason Israel and Palestinians and Jordan, and that is the key, its three entities, not two, can find a way to move Jewish settlers back to Palestine and Palestinians from refugee camps to the West Bank. That is not easy because many Palestinians want to take back Jordan and or Israel and will never accept anything else. As well the Jews of Hebron and other settlements who have lived there since ancient days uninterupted are not going to want to go anywhere.

There are a lot of obstacles. Iran and its proxy agent Hezbollah and Hamas and Islamic Jihad and over 300 other terror cells would love to sabotage any peace deal, kill Abbas, King Abdullah, etc., and make all Palestinians fear for their lives if they get along with Israel and Jordan as they do today.

Its a complex series of relationships and underlying it all is one pressing factor, a shortage of fresh water that Jordan, the West Bank and Israel all face and need to work together to resolve.

Is it possible to be a democratic state but build into it one religious context different then the others? Well we know in the Muslim world under sharia law, it does not happen. We know for centuries in Europe when Christian religion and state were not seperated it simply resulted in the persecution and mass genocide of non Christians.

In Israel in 60 years within Israel proper it has worked but the practical reality is Muslim Israelis if they do not serve in the IDF can't get security clearance and that makes many jobs unavailable to them and when there is a terrorist attack, they feel the brunt of distrust or anger from their Jewish neighbours. It also causes anti-semitism to be broadcast throughout the Arab world as normal every day fodder and fuel animosity that fuels terrorists and their sympathizers world wide who finance elaborate netoworks of organized crime to launder and raise funds for weapons.

For Israel which wishes to follow a Western democractic model, it has found security issues have compromised its belief in fundamental human rights and legal values and particularly in the West Bank where arbitrary search and seizure of everyone is the practical result of on-going terror.

Its a complex series of issues where there are no rights and wrongs just variables and ever changing conditions that exasperate or enhance the possibilities for peace.

As we speak Israel and Syria are making peace overtures and Hamas and Egypt are involved in a vicious internal conflict where Egypt is threatened by the Muslim Brotherhood which sides with Hamas-and so Egypt is anxious to have Hamas cool it and stop attacking Israel and inciting Egyptians who each day become more and more polarized through the repressive Mubarak regime.

For all we know Israel and Syria could come to a peace deal then the next day, Egypt becomes a Sunni version of Iran taken over by fundamentalist fanatics who undo any peace arrangements between Israel and Palestinian.

It is that volatile and unpredictable.

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For all we know Israel and Syria could come to a peace deal then the next day, Egypt becomes a Sunni version of Iran taken over by fundamentalist fanatics who undo any peace arrangements between Israel and Palestinian.

It is that volatile and unpredictable.

Exactly why negotiations are currently pointless.
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Well jbg, I have to give it to you - this particular forum seems to have found alot more to say about your little essay than the other forum that you posted this at.

I consider Zionism to be an exercise in self-determination, similar to what many anti-Western groups lobby for. The difference is that many who support other groups' "self-determination" do so only when it is harmful to the West's interests.

The Jews tried living in the Diaspora as citizens of host countries. With the exception of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and, intermittently, the United Kingdom that didn't work out so well. We all know the finale, but the prelude was centuries of off and on persecutions of Jews. Ironically, just as full legal rights were extended to Jews in the 1880's in most non-English speaking countries (the US extended full rights from inception through the early 1830's and Britain did in 1831, thus covering the Empire) all hell broke loose. France's L'Affaire Dreyfusse got its start, I believe, in 1892, the same year as Russia's Kisinev Pogroms. This helped jump-start the Zionist movement, or the movement for a Jewish republic.

At the same time, other peoples, such as the Poles, the Lithuanians, etc. began to lobby for self-determination. Most got their wish after WW I when the Russian, German and Austro-Hungarian empires were dismembered. The Jews got a vague promise from the British, the Balfour Declaration. The events of WW II led to the formation of the State of Israel, largely, in my opinion, since the Jewish survivors of the concentration camp could not return to their (expropriated) homes and businesses, and the murderous intent of their "hosts" was clear and obvious.

Zionists have as much right as any other people to "self-determination". The Arabs have plenty of their own countries:

Morocco;

Tunisia;

Algeria;

Libya;

Egypt;

Jordan;

Syria;

Saudi Arabia;

UAE;

Kuwait;

Chad;

Sudan;

Yemen; and

Iraq

In addition they have significant influence, verging on control, in Lebanon. There are plenty of other non-Arab Muslim countries:

Iran;

Afghanistan;

Turkey;

Pakistan;

Uzbekistan (sp);

Khazakstan;

Bangladesh;

Indonesia;

Malaysia;

Senegal;

Somalia; and

a few other former Soviet Socialist Republics that escape me

The attempts to demonize Israel are, to me, an attempt to say that there should not be a Jewish state.

tsk tsk

Cross posting again huh?

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No. Peace is never pointless. All it means is peace is fragile and precarious.
Why is there a point to making peace with one person, sitting at a bargaining table, who represents no one but him or her self?
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Well jbg, I have to give it to you - this particular forum seems to have found alot more to say about your little essay than the other forum that you posted this at.

tsk tsk

Cross posting again huh?

I posted it here first so it's "cross-posting" only as to vivelecanada. Complain over there.
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I posted it here first so it's "cross-posting" only as to vivelecanada. Complain over there.

really? Says on the page you posted it at around 9:09 am on the 26th, and this one at 11:36... hmmm.

Not that it really matters eh. Could be a time difference between forums I suppose. Still though - as you well know crossposts are against the rules here jbg (not that that hasn't stopped you before! ;) ).

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Why is there a point to making peace with one person, sitting at a bargaining table, who represents no one but him or her self?

That's a different issue. What you are now talking about is a basic theory of negotiation and that is-whoever comes to the table to negotiate, is a legitimate representative able to represent a state or a specific identified group's political will and has as a condition precedent to sitting down and negotiating agreed that he does not believe in terror or as a legitimate means to express political will and that political will is to be dealt with through words not weapons.

The issue is not whether Hamas should sit at a peace table, its the fact they need to first do what the IRA did and that is to disarm themselves and renounce violence. Likewise any other terrorist group must be willing to do the same to be able to sit at any table.

Israel has made it clear they will speak with anyone in the Middle East who recognizes their right to exist and does not support terrorism as a means to express political will and will not engage in it.

Indirectly Israel has negotiated with Hezbollah and Hamas through third parties but it can not and will not ever sit at a table as long as they are armed and calling for its destruction. Everyone knows that. Israel is no different then Egypt, Jordan or Saudi Arabia in that stance.

If Lebanon had their way, there would be only one army in Lebanon not the Lebanese Army and then Hezbollah which is a militia and law unto itself violating Lebanese state law.

Likewise in Syria if you think Mr. Assad sits and has peace talks with the Muslim Brotherhood think again.

Half of this is posturing for public consumption. What people do not get is Hamas is just as concerned about Syria,Egypt and Jordan as it is Israel in terms of surviving.

Its all a game of men trying to consolidate power by force some through terrorist organizations others through state military structure. Either way peace talks do not happen if people stay armed and intent on destroying their enemy. Their has to be a sizeable cognitive shift to seeing the enemy you want to destroy as a potential ally.

Its not there with Hamas or Islamic Jihad or Fatah Hawks or 300 other organizations on the West Bank and Gaza. They have no intention to change as long as they can support their power bases and self-interests through funding from Egypt, Saudi Arbia, Iran, Syria, China, North Korea and Russia all playing them off each other for political gain.

For those who want to scapegoat the US and Israel they can, but they are far from the only players in this battle of hegemony and control of oil, water, and heroin.

But it doesn't mean it won't happen. Eventually it happens if for no other reason everyone becomes stalemated and wants to share in the greed or power or slice of the pie.

Edited by Rue
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That's a different issue. What you are now talking about is a basic theory of negotiation and that is-whoever comes to the table to negotiate, is a legitimate representative able to represent a state or a specific identified group's political will and has as a condition precedent to sitting down and negotiating agreed that he does not believe in terror or as a legitimate means to express political will and that political will is to be dealt with through words not weapons.

***************

Its not there with Hamas or Islamic Jihad or Fatah Hawks or 300 other organizations on the West Bank and Gaza. They have no intention to change as long as they can support their power bases and self-interests through funding from Egypt, Saudi Arbia, Iran, Syria, China, North Korea and Russia all playing them off each other for political gain.

For those who want to scapegoat the US and Israel they can, but they are far from the only players in this battle of hegemony and control of oil, water, and heroin.

But it doesn't mean it won't happen. Eventually it happens if for no other reason everyone becomes stalemated and wants to share in the greed or power or slice of the pie.

How do you reconcile the two conflicting parts of your post, other than what's obviously a heartfelt desire for peace. Why is anyone talking about a "peace process" when as you admit Israel has no bargaining partner that speaks for the Arab population?

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How do you reconcile the two conflicting parts of your post, other than what's obviously a heartfelt desire for peace. Why is anyone talking about a "peace process" when as you admit Israel has no bargaining partner that speaks for the Arab population?

Sorry I was late responding but I have had some other stuff.

I will answer your question but first off I would like to state this entire thread was not something that makes me comfortable. My vision of Zionism and being a Jew is different then yours as are my politics.

To start with I was not brought up as a Jew ever to brag about the good things or beneficial things Jews do. That I was taught is false pride and brings disgrace to being a Jew. So no I am not comfortable making lists of Jews who have achieved things. I do not believe we should throw our achievements about under any circumstance.

Secondly I constantly find myself responding in a way that makes me very angry with myself because I happen to care what a BC Chick or Buffy thinks and I am serious now, it brings tears to my eyes when we Jews respond in a way that makes us sound like we are beligerent racists or intolerant.

My vision of Zionism was not one that evisioned hurting Palestinians or Muslims and I can see why Buffy adapts the views she does some days. How is it we talk to young people and are not reminded we were once young and what they do not want to hear from us is anger and beligerence?

That said, the fact that I am a supporter of Israel and a Zionist does not mean I haveto agree with certain things and ignore others.

For example and this is in response to JBGlobe who was entitled to a far better answer from me that what I have contributed so far-yes Israel from 1948 to approximately the year 2003 has passed over 21 property laws and the Supreme Court of Israel has basically said, the method in which Israel transferred the absentee land of Palestinians who left Israel during the 1948 War of Independence through various agencies culminating in their privitization was illegal.

That is what we do. We Jews admit when we are wrong. So we were wrong. At least we admit it. So now we have to do something about it as part of an over-all peace settlement. Palestinian Israelis seek restitution. Do we ignore them?

It is not what we do. We do not ignore people we have done wrong to and we will not become a weaker people for admitting that. The practical reality is after 60 years, under international law, the citizens of Israel now living on land illegally privatized from absentee Palestinian landlords is called a secondary right and under international law, secondary property rights, particularly residential ones, have strong legal status and will not be ignored. The reality is restitution, giving the land back will not happen, but compensation for the land and new places for those Israeli Palestinians that have been citizens of Israeli since 1948 and who were displaced is part of the equation and we will have to deal with it.

So no I am not about to say to Buffy Israel is perfect and does not have problems. Part of the problem is that land issue. But also part of that problem is the fact that 700,000 Jews had to flee to Israel from Arab countries which makes the need for them to be compensated just as important. There are two sets of people who require compensation and ironically the displaced Palestinians were about 600,000 and the Jews 700,000.

So the solution? We can't throw Israelis out of Israel to accommodate returning Palestinians and international law does not recognize the rights of anyone but the actual refugees, i.e., not people born after them just the actual people physically who fled.

Let me also state Zionism is NOT racist as Socred parrots. All Zionism is and remains is the concept that the state institution is of Jewish character and has as its primary motive of existence the protection of Jews.

The only difference between Israel being up front about this institutional bias and the rest of the world is it is blatant and upfront about what it is doing.

80 other countries have the same law of return and do the same thing and yet only Israel is singled out.

Palestinians and the rest of the world are mistaken if they think Jews will just go away or giv eup the idea they need a state to protect them. Its not going to happen.

Non Jews like Buffy do not understand it because they have never lived in a world where their existence has been threatened on a minute by minute basis. Palestinians do. That is the ironic thing-they do because they understand Jews in Israel better then anyone and certainly better then self-hating Jews like Mr. Finklestein.

So you say who is the partner to reach out to. PALESTINIANS.

We have to create another state for Palestinians on the West Bank and in Gaza for Palestinians to go to. Then the Arab League has to accept its moral responsibility for starting a war that created them and for placing them in refugee camps by doing two things; compensating the displaced Jews now in Israel and assisting in the building of Palestine and in absorbing as citizens those Palestinians who wish to become citizens of other Arab countries.

In return for the above the State of Israel then pulls back the settlers behind the green line and it compensates Palestinian Israelis.

I know you disagree JBG but for me Israel's future depends on sitting and negotiating with the Arab League, the Palestinian people, Palestinian Israelis and Jordan. Those are the people to talk to and who are directly involved.

Everyone else should butt out.

As for terrorism, yes it places the entire region in a deep freeze and it compromises everyone's human rights as security considerations prevail. But terrorism does not come from no where.

The current security Minister of Israel who was the former head of Shin Bet said, we must remember Palestinian terrorists became terrorists. If the root causes of terrorism are not addressed as part of this process terrorism will continue.

So we have conflict. To mediate and resolve conflict we need to identify which issues are of equal concern and value (mutual interests), those that have value to both sides but not in equal amounts (common interests) and those issues that are only of interest to one side (exclusive interests).

To build peace we need to start with the mutual interests, then work towards the common ones, then the exclusive ones.

We need to first start with the easier issues and then build on positive successes.

To do all that is not easy. It may take many years. Before any of it happens someone has to convince the terrorists to step down and give up their weapons just as it was done with the IRA.

That will require delicate behind the scenes liaising through Turkey, Norway, Spain, Egypt.

It will also require Israel showing restraint when its very gut says to do otherwise.

It will also require people butting out and understanding ultimately any settlement process has to be decided between Palestinians and Israelis and no one else.

Religious fundamentalism is an obstacle so are insincere people using the conflict as an opportunity to exploit Palestinians for their own selfish political agendas.

No I do not see Palestinians as the problem-I see them as one of two sets of people suffering from the same problem.

I do not expect a Palestinian living in the Gaza or West Bank to react any differently then I do when our people were forced to flee to Israel and how our people feel every time there is a war or terrorist attack or someone makes the comment that Jews are not entitled to be protected by their own state institution or that its racist for us to believe that.

Zionism has nothing to do with feeling we are superior and never did. Socred is typical of the millions of non Jews who will never make an effort to understand our history and the role his religion has played in it and how it is not and was never meant to be anything other then an existential survival concept and its why contrary to what he or mostly everyone believes, Israel unlike Muslim states is not and has never claimed to be nor has any interest in being a theocracy with one state religion.

Its why Israel has religious courts for the different religions.

But and its a big but, we Jews believe in democracy and we have to wrestle with that notion. If we are to have a state that protects us from never again being the victims of dhiommitude and Christian oppression and the holocaust and other slaughters and pogroms we have to decide, how much democracy are we willing to sacrifice? I believe Israel is struggling to balance its need to be a Jewish state to protect Jews of the world as well as its own citizens and its own 20% minority of non Jews and has many challenges involved in that regard that will tie in to the oevr-all question of Palestinian state rights in a second state.

No I can not give a simple answer, its not a simple question. But I have tried my best to answer it and not leave this thread lending to the impression that being a Zionist does not mean we care, are humanitarian and do not wish to hurt or oppress Palestinians and recognize they struggle as we did and continue to do and Israel will never be complete until their nightmare as well as ours, is put to rest.

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Sorry I was late responding but I have had some other stuff.
That's fine. Better well written than a snap response. We need not always agree and this is one of those times.
So no I am not about to say to Buffy Israel is perfect and does not have problems. Part of the problem is that land issue. But also part of that problem is the fact that 700,000 Jews had to flee to Israel from Arab countries which makes the need for them to be compensated just as important. There are two sets of people who require compensation and ironically the displaced Palestinians were about 600,000 and the Jews 700,000.

So the solution? We can't throw Israelis out of Israel to accommodate returning Palestinians and international law does not recognize the rights of anyone but the actual refugees, i.e., not people born after them just the actual people physically who fled.

Part of the problem is that no one is talking of forcing Arab countries that expelled Jews to compensate those Jews or their descendants. Are we in the West so insecure that we cannot invoke the "sauce rule", i.e. what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander"?
We have to create another state for Palestinians on the West Bank and in Gaza for Palestinians to go to.
Why yet another state? Why not add certain parts of the West Bank and Gaza respectively to Jordan and Egypt? The requirement of a "separate state" is a tactic to later argue that the state is not continguous, and salami-slice Israel further.
Then the Arab League has to accept its moral responsibility for starting a war that created them and for placing them in refugee camps by doing two things; compensating the displaced Jews now in Israel and assisting in the building of Palestine and in absorbing as citizens those Palestinians who wish to become citizens of other Arab countries.

In return for the above the State of Israel then pulls back the settlers behind the green line and it compensates Palestinian Israelis.

I know you disagree JBG but for me Israel's future depends on sitting and negotiating with the Arab League, the Palestinian people, Palestinian Israelis and Jordan. Those are the people to talk to and who are directly involved.

I disagree because there is no organization that speaks for the "Palestinian people, Palestinian Israelis". Abbas and the heads of Hamas and Hezbollah speak for themselves, not for anyone else. And those "leaders" cannot or will not control their renegade terrorists. Hence the futility in the negoations you propose.
Everyone else should butt out.
Agreed.
As for terrorism, yes it places the entire region in a deep freeze and it compromises everyone's human rights as security considerations prevail. But terrorism does not come from no where.

The current security Minister of Israel who was the former head of Shin Bet said, we must remember Palestinian terrorists became terrorists. If the root causes of terrorism are not addressed as part of this process terrorism will continue.

No, the "causes" of terror are the artificial attempt to simplistically ban state-on-state war. Since people cannot be forced to like each other, the warfare is now waged by itinerant terrorists rather than governments.
No I can not give a simple answer, its not a simple question. But I have tried my best to answer it and not leave this thread lending to the impression that being a Zionist does not mean we care, are humanitarian and do not wish to hurt or oppress Palestinians and recognize they struggle as we did and continue to do and Israel will never be complete until their nightmare as well as ours, is put to rest.
You made a good faith attempt to answer it at least. We don't agree but I respect that.
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You made a good faith attempt to answer it at least. We don't agree but I respect that.

Thanks. I appreciate some of my ideas may be naive and unrealistic as well. Let me be even more specific. I think the future partners of peace talks are progressive Palestinian intellects in North America who progressive Jews in North America need to reach out to and vice versa and form a coalition to then influence Israeli and Palestinian leaders. I believe the Arab League of Nations, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon are secondary parties. I believe the primary parties are Jordan, Israel the Palestinian Authority, and the leaders of the Palestinian Israelis within Israel. I see the role of progressive Palestinians and Jews outwide Israel as a mediators.

I see potential mediators in Turkey and Spain and possibly Norway.

I see the issue of compensating past illegal land seizures within the green line of Israel one which can not realistically accommodate restitution (giving land back or having second and third generation Palestinians move back-there is no physical room for them) but will have to provide compensation for those Palestinians who are Israeli citizens because of the Supreme Court of Israel rulings. As part of an overall peace solution, the displaced Jews of the Middle East, have to also be compensated and recognized and it is here I believe the AArab League has to take moral responsibility and say we forced the issue by expelling them all and confiscating all their property, so now we need to compensate them. Then the Arab League needs to accept moral responsibility for creating the initial displacement of Palestinians by forcing the war in 1948 and then forcefully placing them in refugee camps. They have a moral obligation to admit this decision and displacing 900,000 Jews sealed the fate of Palestinians as much as any Zionist did.

The Arab world needs to accept equal responsibility for displacing the genuine Palestinian Muslims with Muslims from outside Palestine and refusing to allow them citizenship in the Arab League nations.

Both Israel and the Arab League need to accept a responsibility and that can be done in a nation on the West Bank and Gaza and in providing financial compensation and aid to Palestinians in this new country.

Palestinians will not ever accept Jordan as their nation. They see it as a British colony that was created as a ploy to stop Jews from forming a country and consolidating British power in the area but they do not and have never considered it a Palestinian nation, even if its coat of arms describes it as a Palestinian nation and even though it has a law of return for Palestinians (except those born after 1988 on the West Bank).

I think in return for the practical reality of illegal land transfers within Israel's green line from Palestinian absentee land owners to Jews, the Arab world should understand Israel is trading that off by giving up a legal right to any of the West Bank which legally they have a right to as much as Palestinians because of the continuous uninterputed residences of Jews in Judea and Somaria since Biblical days.

Its a matter of practical realistic trade offs and quite frankly JBG I do not give a shit what some of the people on this thread think because they make no effort to find out the legal rights of either Jews in Israel or Palestinians and assume Jews suddenly appeared in 1948 from Europe as colonialists.

I only give a shit what Israelis and Palestinians feel and think and Palestinians and Israelis are sick and tired of violence and this continued reference to the past and need to talk about now and jobs and water.

Terrorism will not stop without jobs and water for Palestinians and Israelis and Palestinians working on mutual interest projects such as roads, water-ways and a common market.

Will terrorists allow such a thing? Probably not. Then again Netanyahu would stop it as well. My approach is the classic labour party approach as now presented by the current Security Minister of Israel who I obviously would vote for if I had a chance or the views of Ehud Barak and the current foreign Minister.

From what I understand if a popular vote was held to day, Netanyahu appears to be the winner and he wants to scrap any talks about the Golan, the West Bank and Jerusalem having stated he finds them all defective and premature.

So this guessing as to who the peace partners would be, is on both sides.

Where you and I agree is that the world will never understand why Jews believe they need a state to protect us from existential extinction and that you and I see Israel and Zionism as an existential exercise not a religious one or even an allegedly philosophical one.

You and I both agree terrorism dampens and limits the ability to engage in peace talks, cultivate human rights and tear down barriers of intolerance as it clouds discussions and makes everything subordinate to survival of the fittest.

For me it is important I work with people who start discussing Israelis and Palestinians as humans with the same mutual interests and existential anxiety and defusing words that make either side seem inhumane or demon like.

I despise terrorism. However I believe anyone who denounces terror, even if they are on the opposite side of the negotiations table and appear in direct conflict-are a potential ally precisely because they put humans first and reason first. I do believe it is possible to achieve anything positive once humans agree they will not engage in violence and will agree to respect each other.

I do not doubt their are obstacles and huge ones at that. Part of the challenge is explaining to people being a Zionist is an existential expression not anything else. It has nothing to do with hating Palestinians or wanting to hurt or control them or violate their rights. That was not our intention. Our intention was to escape persecution and create a nation to protect us because in every nation we have lived in, we were not allowed to own land and were under seige. It did not come about to hurt others-just to protect us and seek what all other peoples have and take for granted.

Palestinians will never understand why we came back to Israel. They will never understand it ever just like the rest of the world will never understand it. It doesn't matter what they think. What matters is we find practical solutions today, here and now. I could care less if any non Jew ever accepts my identity as a Jew and why there is an existential imperative attached to it through state expression. I really don't care. If they ask and genuinely want to know I discuss it. Otherwise I limit my debates to addressing unfair comments that demonize Palestinians or Israelis.

I am not interested in shoving my identity in anyone's face. I prefer to express my identity with quiet, reserved dignity and a gentle kindness because I believe any other way of expressing it becomes threatening and only serves to incite anti-semites. I am no self-loathing Jew who apologizes but I am also not someone who believes might is right and you deal with ignorance by counter-ignorance.

My challenge is not with people like you. Its with young people who have no clue as to Jewish history and use the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as an opportunity to make themselves feel superior and feel they can lecture Israelis and Palestinians.

You must also remember, Palestinians are not dumb. They know the same people that shit on Israel in their name, will do the same with them for the exact same reason they do it with Israel. They are not dumb JBG.

Their practical nightmare is finding a way out of the terror cycle they did not start and do not know how to get out of. They aren't stupid. They know all the sanctimonious talk in their name is bullshit. They are looking to Israel not the rest of the world. They aint stupid. They can't say it but they are looking to Israel to find a way to avoid fueling Hamas and the other terrorists by responding in certain ways.

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You made a good faith attempt to answer it at least. We don't agree but I respect that.

Thanks. I appreciate some of my ideas may be naive and unrealistic as well. Let me be even more specific. I think the future partners of peace talks are progressive Palestinian intellects in North America who progressive Jews in North America need to reach out to and vice versa and form a coalition to then influence Israeli and Palestinian leaders. I believe the Arab League of Nations, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon are secondary parties. I believe the primary parties are Jordan, Israel the Palestinian Authority, and the leaders of the Palestinian Israelis within Israel. I see the role of progressive Palestinians and Jews outwide Israel as a mediators.

I see potential mediators in Turkey and Spain and possibly Norway.

I see the issue of compensating past illegal land seizures within the green line of Israel one which can not realistically accommodate restitution (giving land back or having second and third generation Palestinians move back-there is no physical room for them) but will have to provide compensation for those Palestinians who are Israeli citizens because of the Supreme Court of Israel rulings. As part of an overall peace solution, the displaced Jews of the Middle East, have to also be compensated and recognized and it is here I believe the AArab League has to take moral responsibility and say we forced the issue by expelling them all and confiscating all their property, so now we need to compensate them. Then the Arab League needs to accept moral responsibility for creating the initial displacement of Palestinians by forcing the war in 1948 and then forcefully placing them in refugee camps. They have a moral obligation to admit this decision and displacing 900,000 Jews sealed the fate of Palestinians as much as any Zionist did.

The Arab world needs to accept equal responsibility for displacing the genuine Palestinian Muslims with Muslims from outside Palestine and refusing to allow them citizenship in the Arab League nations.

Both Israel and the Arab League need to accept a responsibility and that can be done in a nation on the West Bank and Gaza and in providing financial compensation and aid to Palestinians in this new country.

Palestinians will not ever accept Jordan as their nation. They see it as a British colony that was created as a ploy to stop Jews from forming a country and consolidating British power in the area but they do not and have never considered it a Palestinian nation, even if its coat of arms describes it as a Palestinian nation and even though it has a law of return for Palestinians (except those born after 1988 on the West Bank).

I think in return for the practical reality of illegal land transfers within Israel's green line from Palestinian absentee land owners to Jews, the Arab world should understand Israel is trading that off by giving up a legal right to any of the West Bank which legally they have a right to as much as Palestinians because of the continuous uninterputed residences of Jews in Judea and Somaria since Biblical days.

Its a matter of practical realistic trade offs and quite frankly JBG I do not give a shit what some of the people on this thread think because they make no effort to find out the legal rights of either Jews in Israel or Palestinians and assume Jews suddenly appeared in 1948 from Europe as colonialists.

I only give a shit what Israelis and Palestinians feel and think and Palestinians and Israelis are sick and tired of violence and this continued reference to the past and need to talk about now and jobs and water.

Terrorism will not stop without jobs and water for Palestinians and Israelis and Palestinians working on mutual interest projects such as roads, water-ways and a common market.

Will terrorists allow such a thing? Probably not. Then again Netanyahu would stop it as well. My approach is the classic labour party approach as now presented by the current Security Minister of Israel who I obviously would vote for if I had a chance or the views of Ehud Barak and the current foreign Minister.

From what I understand if a popular vote was held to day, Netanyahu appears to be the winner and he wants to scrap any talks about the Golan, the West Bank and Jerusalem having stated he finds them all defective and premature.

So this guessing as to who the peace partners would be, is on both sides.

Where you and I agree is that the world will never understand why Jews believe they need a state to protect us from existential extinction and that you and I see Israel and Zionism as an existential exercise not a religious one or even an allegedly philosophical one.

You and I both agree terrorism dampens and limits the ability to engage in peace talks, cultivate human rights and tear down barriers of intolerance as it clouds discussions and makes everything subordinate to survival of the fittest.

For me it is important I work with people who start discussing Israelis and Palestinians as humans with the same mutual interests and existential anxiety and defusing words that make either side seem inhumane or demon like.

I despise terrorism. However I believe anyone who denounces terror, even if they are on the opposite side of the negotiations table and appear in direct conflict-are a potential ally precisely because they put humans first and reason first. I do believe it is possible to achieve anything positive once humans agree they will not engage in violence and will agree to respect each other.

I do not doubt their are obstacles and huge ones at that. Part of the challenge is explaining to people being a Zionist is an existential expression not anything else. It has nothing to do with hating Palestinians or wanting to hurt or control them or violate their rights. That was not our intention. Our intention was to escape persecution and create a nation to protect us because in every nation we have lived in, we were not allowed to own land and were under seige. It did not come about to hurt others-just to protect us and seek what all other peoples have and take for granted.

Palestinians will never understand why we came back to Israel. They will never understand it ever just like the rest of the world will never understand it. It doesn't matter what they think. What matters is we find practical solutions today, here and now. I could care less if any non Jew ever accepts my identity as a Jew and why there is an existential imperative attached to it through state expression. I really don't care. If they ask and genuinely want to know I discuss it. Otherwise I limit my debates to addressing unfair comments that demonize Palestinians or Israelis.

I am not interested in shoving my identity in anyone's face. I prefer to express my identity with quiet, reserved dignity and a gentle kindness because I believe any other way of expressing it becomes threatening and only serves to incite anti-semites. I am no self-loathing Jew who apologizes but I am also not someone who believes might is right and you deal with ignorance by counter-ignorance.

My challenge is not with people like you. Its with young people who have no clue as to Jewish history and use the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as an opportunity to make themselves feel superior and feel they can lecture Israelis and Palestinians.

You must also remember, Palestinians are not dumb. They know the same people that shit on Israel in their name, will do the same with them for the exact same reason they do it with Israel. They are not dumb JBG.

Their practical nightmare is finding a way out of the terror cycle they did not start and do not know how to get out of. They aren't stupid. They know all the sanctimonious talk in their name is bullshit. They are looking to Israel not the rest of the world. They aint stupid. They can't say it but they are looking to Israel to find a way to avoid fueling Hamas and the other terrorists by responding in certain ways.

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