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Egyptian Parliament Okays Female Genital Mutilation


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Which is to say, the story is a crock, female genital mutilation is still banned in Egypt and Egyptians are indeed sane people.

Well....probably still banned but sane?

From a newsource as reputable as Fox....

Hatem al-Gabali, the health minister, decided on Thursday to ban every doctor and member of the medical profession, in public or private establishments, from carrying out a clitoridectomy.

Any circumcision "will be viewed as a violation of the law and all contraventions will be punished," a ministry official said.

A survey in 2000 said the practice was carried out on 97 per cent of the country's women.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/04A...8E0A4298A69.htm

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Guest American Woman
QUOTE=scriblett:

I cannot imagine any sane people legalizing this, they also reduced the age limit for marriage. Where's the media outcry on this one!

Egyptian Parliament Okays Female Genital Mutilation

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/146681

I can't imagine any sane people legalizing this either. And Whattya know? After extensive searching for something with further details about the Egyptian parliaments decision I cant find a god darn thing unless it links to the INN story linked and then its some blog or other.

Which is to say, the story is a crock, female genital mutilation is still banned in Egypt and Egyptians are indeed sane people.

This is an interesting article, and it makes it sound as if female circumcision isn't banned in Egypt. Evidently there was a law passed by the Shoura Council that would make performing female circumcision ... punishable by three months to two years in prison and a fine of LE 1,000 to LE 5,000, but as of May 12, Parliament is yet to decide whether to pass the law or not.

So if the law hasn't been passed by Parliament, then female circumcision wouldn't be outlawed in Egypt.

Edited by American Woman
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Could someone please just clarify one thing for me? How come nobody calls male circumcision "genital mutilation"?

Instead of asking the question as to what the difference is (indicating you do not know what the difference is) then expressing a subjective opinion based on guessing..you went on to say..."it seems to me"...you should try find out for yourself what the two processes are, BEFORE you render an opinion based on an erroneous assumption they are the same.

Female circumcision involves cutting most or all of the clitoris off. Go on the web site and find out what is cut off and why. Its designed to prevent women from experiencing any pleasure or sensation when being penetrated.

Geez have you finished high school? Do you know what a clitoris is? A clitoris is a body organ that consists of many nerve endings and its these nerve endings that cause sensation when touched. That is why they are all cut off.

Now you might also want to try just try find out what a foreskin is. Its skin. A layer of skin. It does not prevent men from experiencing sexual pleasure if its cut off. That si why wayne Bobbit's wife a few years back cut off his entire penis. She knew better then to simply cut off his foreskin.

In fact the reason it was originally done was for a basic sanitary reason. In the hot climate of the desert, sand and swet caught underneath the foreskin would irritate the penis and lead to infections.

So it was removed so the penis could be cleaned easier and not develop infections.

Most religious ceremonies such as circumcision like the Islamic and Jewish diets were based on the fact people did not wash their hands and would mix bacteria from meat and milk products which would prove lethal or could eat the kind of meat that could not be preserved properly in the heat or was more prone to become infested with worms or in the case of shell fish toxic substances such as red algae which were fatal.

The circumcision of women unlike the circumcision of men did not originate for health reasons and unlike male circumcision which is minimally invasive-it is extremely invasive and unlike circumcission for men its based on the concept of a woman's clitoris being evil. In fact even referring to it as a circumcission is incorrect. It in fact is far more then removing a layer of skin.

When men cut off their forskin no one is suggesting they are doing it because their pee pee is evil and its to prevent them from orgasming. With women, they do.

Now that is a simplistic explanation, but you really do need to get out and find out the difference between a foreskin and a clitoris. Trust me they are not the same.

How do I know? God told me. Also I am fine. I survived my mutilation. Honest. To compare what happened to me to the physical pain and suffering being inflicted on young women based on an ideology that assumes women are evil and spiritually not to be trusted if they orgasm is ludicrous.

And I will share this secret with you, when we Jews orgasm we do not necessarily say Oy Oy Oy. Sometimes we say; Oy my back, Oy my back, Oy my back.

Edited by Rue
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Re: all of the crazy religious wackos who started the concept of snipping off body parts to be presentable before the eyes of God, has anyone ever asked: if you have a perfect god, how did he make the mistake of adding a foreskin or the female genitalia that has to be mutilated, in the first place?

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Re: all of the crazy religious wackos who started the concept of snipping off body parts to be presentable before the eyes of God, has anyone ever asked: if you have a perfect god, how did he make the mistake of adding a foreskin or the female genitalia that has to be mutilated, in the first place?

Bingo

Well said.

Also, I don't believe for a moment that this practice has been officially condoned as the original poster (A muslim hater) states.

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Guest American Woman
Re: all of the crazy religious wackos who started the concept of snipping off body parts to be presentable before the eyes of God, has anyone ever asked: if you have a perfect god, how did he make the mistake of adding a foreskin or the female genitalia that has to be mutilated, in the first place?

Since the custom predates Islam and Christianity, one would have to assume that they didn't "start snipping off body part to be presentable before the eyes of God," but rather to be more presentable to themselves/their fellow man.

Furthermore, no religion condones it.

Edited by American Woman
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Since the custom predates Islam and Christianity, one would have to assume that they didn't "start snipping off body part to be presentable before the eyes of God," but rather to be more presentable to themselves/their fellow man.

Furthermore, no religion condones it.

No religion condones it.

You ARE correct.

Yet - this is paraded out time and time again in order to demonise the Muslim community - and paint them all with the same brush by folks like Scribblet.

Sickening.

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No religion condones it.

You ARE correct.

Yet - this is paraded out time and time again in order to demonise the Muslim community - and paint them all with the same brush by folks like Scribblet.

Sickening.

This post I did earlier has both a Muslim man's and a Muslim woman's opinion of the practice. Worth a watch B_cat.

-----------------------------------------------------

Way down upon de Swanee river,

Far, far away,

Dere's wha my heart is turning ever,

Dere's wha de old folks stay.

---Old Folks At Home

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Memri!!!!???

LMFAOROTF

I think the same re: some of your links. You've never been able to show me anywhere where Memri is deemed suspect...but OK. However, this one suggests the opinions are different depending if you're the poor sucker getting you clitoris removed. Meanwhile, the male does his best to justify the practice. She asks....'do you have a daughter??' He responds 'no' but he would have the clitoris removed if it was 'deemed needed'.

I wonder who deems THAT? Being that I can't think of one reason to remove a healthy young lady's clitoris. Take a chance...watch it.

------------------------------------

I confront the European elite's self-image as tolerant 'while under their noses women are living like slaves.

---Ayaan Hirsi Ali

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I think the same re: some of your links. You've never been able to show me anywhere where Memri is deemed suspect...but OK. However, this one suggests the opinions are different depending if you're the poor sucker getting you clitoris removed. Meanwhile, the male does his best to justify the practice. She asks....'do you have a daughter??' He responds 'no' but he would have the clitoris removed if it was 'deemed needed'.

I wonder who deems THAT? Being that I can't think of one reason to remove a healthy young lady's clitoris. Take a chance...watch it.

------------------------------------

I confront the European elite's self-image as tolerant 'while under their noses women are living like slaves.

---Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Well Doggie here's one:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.p...r=605&pg=11

But of course you will dismiss it since Finkelstein is of course a 'self-hater' eh?

Don't know why I bother?

Memri is well known to mistranslate or embellish on thier own much of what they report as neutral'.

And, PuppieonPorch, I shouldn't have to do YOUR research for you.

Learn a REAL trick or two.

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Ahhhh...I see. It's one of the founders of Memri that might get the cat's goat...lol. Yigal Carmon...am I right? Am I...lol?? Yeah...guess you wouldn't like his sort. However, the institute does employ Muslims as well as Jews (and Christians, no doubt).

:lol::lol:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/28/israel2

It's one of those things...do Israelis shell families having picnics on beaches or does Hamas construct the story? But that's another thread...eh?

:lol:

Never change, buffy...

:P

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Science rules!

---Bill Nye

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No religion condones it.

You ARE correct.

Yet - this is paraded out time and time again in order to demonise the Muslim community - and paint them all with the same brush by folks like Scribblet.

Sickening.

Okay! You gals are just making up your own make-believe world where no religion condones clitorectomies, and it's just those backward tribal people that are keeping an ancient practise going!

It doesn't matter how or when it got started, the fact is that a large number of Muslim authorities are advocates for this practise. Otherwise Egypt woudn't have reversed its ban on female circumcision -- the story that started this thread in the first place!

IslamOnline is the busiest Islamic website on the internet. According to Alexa, it receives more hits than any other website in the Arab World, so what advice does Sheik Al-Qaradawi have to solve this issue:

However, the most moderate opinion and the most likely one to be correct is in favor of practicing circumcision in the moderate Islamic way indicated in some of the Prophet's hadiths – even though such hadiths are not confirmed to be authentic. It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to a midwife: "Reduce the size of the clitoris but do not exceed the limit, for that is better for her health and is preferred by husbands". The hadith indicates that circumcision is better for a woman's health and it enhances her conjugal relation with her husband. It’s noteworthy that the Prophet's saying "do not exceed the limit" means do not totally remove the clitoris.

Actually, Muslim countries differ over the issue of female circumcision; some countries sanction it whereas others do not. Anyhow, it is not obligatory, whoever finds it serving the interest of his daughters should do it, and I personally support this under the current circumstances in the modern world. But whoever chooses not to do it is not considered to have committed a sin for it is mainly meant to dignify women as held by scholars.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...d=1119503543886

Not exactly an unqualified rejection from the go-to-guy for advice!

My original challenge still stands if you don't recognize a religious dimension to this problem: find me the corresponding Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or any other religious authorities who speak favourably of continuing female genital mutilation!

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Well Doggie here's one:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.p...r=605&pg=11

But of course you will dismiss it since Finkelstein is of course a 'self-hater' eh?

Don't know why I bother?

Memri is well known to mistranslate or embellish on thier own much of what they report as neutral'.

And, PuppieonPorch, I shouldn't have to do YOUR research for you.

Learn a REAL trick or two.

Even if MEMRI isn't 100% honest, I'll still cut them some slack for the invaluable job they do of providing English translations of programs on Arab T.V. Don't forget, the most inflamatory clips like the female moderator of a Palestinian TV show coaching a 4 year old girl to say that she hates Jews because they are descendents of apes and pigs, made their impact because they were shown on all of the anti-Muslim or anti-Arab websites. Regardless, the Palestinian and other Arab networks should be on notice that they are not just venting and spewing bile for their audience now that we're in the internet age!

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Guest American Woman
Okay! You gals are just making up your own make-believe world where no religion condones clitorectomies, and it's just those backward tribal people that are keeping an ancient practise going!

Ummm. No. I'm not making up anything. <_< Since many more Muslims don't condone FGM than do, since more clerics don't than do, one can hardly say "Islam as a religion condones FGM." Furthermore, since there are Christians within the cultures that practice FGM too, and since I cited three countries where more Christians practice it than Muslims, one can hardly say this is an "Islam thing."

It doesn't matter how or when it got started, the fact is that a large number of Muslim authorities are advocates for this practise. Otherwise Egypt woudn't have reversed its ban on female circumcision -- the story that started this thread in the first place!

Once again, Egypt didn't reverse it's ban on female circumcision since Egypt's parliament never voted for a law banning it to begin with. However, as I already posted (did you read the article I linked to?): Under the new child law, which the Shoura Council passed last week, performing female circumcision is punishable by three months to two years in prison and a fine of LE 1,000 to LE 5,000. In addition, the law raises the legal age of marriage to 18 for both men and women.

Egypt's Parliament has not yet passed the law, but: Speaking to Daily News Egypt, Mona Amin, the head of the national project to combat FGM, stressed that outlawing the practice was approved by Al Azhar and the main Islamic scholars including Yusuf El Qaradawi and Mohamed Selim El Awa.

My original challenge still stands if you don't recognize a religious dimension to this problem: find me the corresponding Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or any other religious authorities who speak favourably of continuing female genital mutilation!

I'm not about to go hunting for other religious authorities who speak favorably of FGM since that's not pertinant to what's happening; fact is, Christians ARE also practicing it in countries where it is the custom to do so. I'm guessing they aren't doing it because of the Islamic clerics who support it.

Fact is, to say that it's a Muslim practice, that it's rooted in Islam, that Islam condones it, is flat out false; especially since more Muslims don't practice it than do. Some Christians condone things that Christianity doesn't condone, and just because some Christians do doesn't mean Christianity does.

So instead of focusing on Islam, you should be focusing on the problem. As has already been stated, women in particular need to be educated about this (there is a difference between "backwards" and "uneducated"). You seem to be focusing on "Islamic clerics," as if they are the reason this problem persists. Read about people who have been there, have been part of educating these cultures, and you will see that they say women persist in keeping the practice alive.

Edited by American Woman
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B_Cat: Well Doggie here's one:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.p...r=605&pg=11

But of course you will dismiss it since Finkelstein is of course a 'self-hater' eh?

Don't know why I bother?

Memri is well known to mistranslate or embellish on thier own much of what they report as neutral'.

And, PuppieonPorch, I shouldn't have to do YOUR research for you.

Learn a REAL trick or two.

I couldn't help but notice in that article that the Arabic traslation is missing. Perhaps they could use Memri's services...

:lol::lol:

Questioner: [Arabic, translation coming soon] [translation pause]

Finkelstein: Thank you for having me.

Questioner: [Arabic, translation coming soon] [translation pause]

Finkelstein: The main reason I wrote the book is because I thought that the Nazi holocaust was being exploited by Israel and its supporters in the United States against the Palestinians and against basic principles of justice. That is, the Nazi holocaust is being used as a political weapon in order to silence criticism of Israeli policies...

------------------------------------------

You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy.

---Charles Manson

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Ummm. No. I'm not making up anything. <_< Since many more Muslims don't condone FGM than do, since more clerics don't than do, one can hardly say "Islam as a religion condones FGM." Furthermore, since there are Christians within the cultures that practice FGM too, and since I cited three countries where more Christians practice it than Muslims, one can hardly say this is an "Islam thing."

And your link didn't provide any numbers to back up that claim!

Once again, Egypt didn't reverse it's ban on female circumcision since Egypt's parliament never voted for a law banning it to begin with. However, as I already posted (did you read the article I linked to?): Under the new child law, which the Shoura Council passed last week, performing female circumcision is punishable by three months to two years in prison and a fine of LE 1,000 to LE 5,000. In addition, the law raises the legal age of marriage to 18 for both men and women.

Great! So who makes the laws and enforces them in Egypt, the parliament or the Shoura Council? I think most of us looking in from the outside can be excused for assuming that the Parliament's decision to rescind the ban means that it can be practised legally. Let's see some numbers for how many are actually prosecuted for conducting these operations before we start jumping for joy!

Egypt's Parliament has not yet passed the law, but: Speaking to Daily News Egypt, Mona Amin, the head of the national project to combat FGM, stressed that outlawing the practice was approved by Al Azhar and the main Islamic scholars including Yusuf El Qaradawi and Mohamed Selim El Awa.

Did you read that commentary I posted from Sheik Qaradawi taken straight from his IslamOnline website? He did not call for a ban! He's supposed to be the most listened to expert in the Sunni Muslim World on these matters, and he stated that he personally considered it a beneficial, though not mandatory practise! That sounds to me like he wants it kept legal for those who choose this option. When did he change his mind? Or did the Egyptian newspaper just make it up that he's on their side?

I'm not about to go hunting for other religious authorities who speak favorably of FGM since that's not pertinant to what's happening; fact is, Christians ARE also practicing it in countries where it is the custom to do so. I'm guessing they aren't doing it because of the Islamic clerics who support it.

Fact is, to say that it's a Muslim practice, that it's rooted in Islam, that Islam condones it, is flat out false; especially since more Muslims don't practice it than do. Some Christians condone things that Christianity doesn't condone, and just because some Christians do doesn't mean Christianity does.

Christian religious leaders only dream of having the clout that their corresponding Muslim clerics enjoy!

So instead of focusing on Islam, you should be focusing on the problem. As has already been stated, women in particular need to be educated about this (there is a difference between "backwards" and "uneducated"). You seem to be focusing on "Islamic clerics," as if they are the reason this problem persists. Read about people who have been there, have been part of educating these cultures, and you will see that they say women persist in keeping the practice alive.

They persist in keeping this practise alive because they live in societies where women are the property of men throughout their lives, and they fear that if their daughters aren't circumcised they won't be able to marry them off. The way you put it, you act like this is all the fault of the mothers and other older women of the community. As long as the only opportunity for social advancement is to get their daughters married into the right families, they will do whatever is demanded of them to make the next generation of females acceptable. And how do you propose "educating these cultures" when they live in societies where the clerics tell everyone how to dress and how to conduct their daily lives?

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Guest American Woman
Great! So who makes the laws and enforces them in Egypt, the parliament or the Shoura Council? I think most of us looking in from the outside can be excused for assuming that the Parliament's decision to rescind the ban means that it can be practised legally. Let's see some numbers for how many are actually prosecuted for conducting these operations before we start jumping for joy!

This is all I have time to comment on right now, but I think it's important to point out yet again that Parliament didn't "rescind the ban" as you keep insisting: "Parliament is yet to decide whether to pass the law or not ... " So if Parliament never voted on it, if Parliament never passed it, Parliament can't "rescind" it. So it's up for vote; Egyptian Parliament did NOT "okay Female Genital Mutilation" as you claim. So while I'm not "jumping for joy," nor have I ever claimed to be, I am interested in the facts. Hopefully the campaign that's going on in Egypt, which has united government forces, official religious leaders, and activists, will lead to Parliament voting for making it a criminal act.

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In regards to Islam, its foolish to say its not prevalent in certain Muslim societies and being conducted by those using their religion to justify doing it on the other hand the fact that some use Islam to justify doing it does not mean that all Muslims do or that it is legitimate inerpretation of the Koran. But its like talking about terrorism. Technically Islam forbids it, but it certainly does not stop Muslim clerics from using the Koran to preach it.

From my readings from the women's groups in Egypt, I am aware and people can check it out themselves there is a huge conflict in the Muslim world about this practice and it can be see in three Fatwas that were issued in Egypt the first on May 28, 1949, the second on June 23, 1951 and the third on January 20, 1981. The first declared its not a sin to reject female circimcision, the second said its desireable and that any medical concerns against it were irrelevant while the third issued by Sheikh of Al-Azhar University stated that parents must follow the lessons of Mohammed and not listen to medical authorities because the latter often change their minds and follow their duty and have their daughters circumcised but then on June 24, 2007, the Grand Mufto of Egypt probibited this practice.

If you follow one school of thought you could point to the Koran's verse An-Nisa': 119 and argue this passage forbids it with the following words;

"And I will surely lead them astray, and arouse desires in them, and command them and they will cut the cattle's ears, and I will surely command them and they will change Allah's creation."

For me this passage seems to rule out any alterations.

Then again other Muslims quote the Sunnah (Tradition of the Prophet) to justify it, i.e.,

'Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband'." 1,8

To verify the above I found a source; http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm, but my info comes from listening to young Islamic women from Pakistan, Somalia and Egypt who explained to me all of the above when I was working in the family courts.

We were very well aware that it was a wide spread practice in Muslim African countries and in particular Somalia and Sudan as well as Egypt and that young Islamic women were trying to bring awareness to it to have it stopped and denounce it as not being part of the religion.

Its practiced by the Kikuyu in Kenya and they are not Muslim.

What is known is that it appears to be practiced by certain Muslims in the name of Islam but non Mulsims too and can range from partial to total removal of female external genitalia and/or injury to the female genital organs for non-therapeutic reasons.

For me in the above equation culture and religion are the same thing although I appreciate the technical difference and the point some make not to assume all Muslims do it. I appreciate not suggesting all Muslims do it, because as a Jew I am very familiar with those who quote the Talmud and other reliable sources to suggest we Jews take the blood of gentile children to make matzah.

I think though the point is many organized religions and cultural practices have taught the woman's body is evil and to be controlled. Certainly anyone who does not notice such messages in Judaism, Christianity or Islam is probably already had to much of their brain circumcized in my humble opinion.

I note an interestingd discussion of the above practice in the New England Journal of Medicine Volume 332:188-190 January 19, 1995 Number 3, where its described as being practiced by Christians, Muslims and Felashie Jews of Ethiopia and then a physician points out its forbidden in the Jewish religion.

You may find the following exerpt of interest from Maroodi Jeex: Somaliland Alternative Newsletter

Issue number 7 (Winter 1997/1998) Female Circumcision: Women's Rights vs. Tribal Identity. The Case of the Darod of Somalia

"Over 80 million women in more than 30 countries have undergone female genital mutilation, also called female circumcision, according to the World Health Organization estimates. According to Gallo (1988), about 80,000 operations are performed annually in Somalia alone. Female circumcision is performed across Africa in a broad triangular east-west band stretching from Senegal to Egypt in the northeast and Tanzania in the southeast. The operation meaning "cutting around" it accurately describes the Sunna form of circumcision which involves removal of the prepuce of the clitoris. This is analogous to male circumcision as it causes no impairment of sexual function. However, only a small number of circumcised women have the Sunna type. The majority undergo pharaonic circumcision which involves excision of the clitoris, the labia majora and the labia minora and infibulation (sewing up) of the vulva. The operation is commonly performed on girls between the ages of four and nine, although in Ethiopia, it may be done on girls as young as one year old."

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Is it because male circumcision is largely done in white societies

Is it? I thought it was quasi-popular in the 60's-80's, and relegated to US & Canada. Or are Europeans & Latino's excluded from the party?

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Could someone please just clarify one thing for me? How come nobody calls male circumcision "genital mutilation"? Seems to me that mutilation is mutilation regardless of the gender of the one being mutilated. Is it because male circumcision is largely done in white societies, or does it have more to do with the religion of the ones carrying out the mutilation?

I don't think the male babies who are having part of their dick chopped off can be considered old enough to consent to what would appear to be a serious sexual assault, and genital mutilation.

I was wondering who made that clanger. marcinmoka you should really use the quote feature so everyone knows who you are quoting....

Well Dr ...."white society" I suppose you would be right if we can now call the millions and millions of indonesians, pakistanis, arabs etc etc...white society...

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  • 3 weeks later...
I cannot imagine any sane people legalizing this, they also reduced the age limit for marriage. Where's the media outcry on this one!

Egyptian Parliament Okays Female Genital Mutilation

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/146681

Bullshit is as bullshit does.

Turns out the Egyptian parliament did not "okay" female genital mutilation. It seems, rather, that the Egyptian parliament made FGM amongst other things illegal with fines and prison sentences.

Children Accorded Greater Rights

PA approves amendments to child law

Edited by Peter F
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