Jump to content
Political Discussion Forums

Norman Finkelstein Arrested In Israel


Recommended Posts

Norman Finkelstein has been arrested upon entry into Israel. He will be detained until deportation, and his bannishment from the 'Light among Nations' will last for at least ten years.

The son of Holocaust survivors and an outspoken critic of Israeli policies in the OPT, Finkelstein is now enduring whatever his captors wish to throw at him.

Let's hope that they don't mistreat him, and that he gets home tomorrow.

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/2...sted-in-israel/

Edited by buffycat
Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, the article is obviously biased and all, but I really do wonder what the flip side to the argument is, and what kind of "security" threat they perceive Finklestein to pose to Israel.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Okay, the article is obviously biased and all, but I really do wonder what the flip side to the argument is, and what kind of "security" threat they perceive Finklestein to pose to Israel.

He poses NO security threat outside of exposing what successive Israeli Administrations have done to a whole people as well as how a certain clique has exploited the suffering and tragedy of so many for the benefit of the few (The Holocaust).

Edited by buffycat
Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally I think he's a prick - he seems to enjoy being an ass while making his arguments. But I'd love to know just what info they have that deems him a national security risk.

Maybe border guards dislike pricks, as well.

-------------------------------------

Imagine the wailing accusations of hypocrisy in the US were Germany to build a national museum in Berlin to commemorate not Nazi genocide but US slavery or the extermination of the Native Indians.

---Norman Finkelstein

Link to post
Share on other sites
Norman Finkelstein has been arrested upon entry into Israel. He will be detained until deportation, and his bannishment from the 'Light among Nations' will last for at least ten years.

The son of Holocaust survivors and an outspoken critic of Israeli policies in the OPT, Finkelstein is now enduring whatever his captors wish to throw at him.

Let's hope that they don't mistreat him, and that he gets home tomorrow.

I think we all know (well, those of us sane) that he'll be well-treated and sent home unharmed.

Which is more than one can say about those languishing in the dreadful prisons of the Muslim world who routinely practice torture - and who buffy never seems to give a damn about.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally I think he's a prick - he seems to enjoy being an ass while making his arguments. But I'd love to know just what info they have that deems him a national security risk.

Lol. He is. Look in the ideal world he should not have been deported simply because of his political opinions. Problem is his trip was organized by Hamas and his agenda was to go to the West Bank and engage in a deliberately provocative series of comments to trigger off extremist Jewish settlers and Palestinians fighting one another.

There are many self-loathing Jewish foreigners who actually live in Israel and do nothing but engage in anti-semitic commentary. The difference is they do not travel to the West Bank and do not have the high profile he does.

The reality is if he was an extremist ultra right week racist Jew going to the West Bank they would have given him the boot too. Its not so much his opinion. The fact that he is very anti-Israel is not so much the factor as it is his extreme views which would provoke incitement and endanger both Israelis and Palestinians.

In regards to his specific opinions he's been dismissed by academics because of quoting non existent references or misquoting references or presenting subjective opinions as facts. But then he is a political scientist not an historian so while his technical academic methods are extremely lacking they are not as significant as if he were claiming to he an historian. He doesn't.

He calls himself a forensic political scientist. His entire academia consists of taking other peoples' works and pointing out why he thinks they are wrong. He does not and has never proposed his own ideology or ideas. His entire thesis is an anti-thesis of others. That in itself makes his premises very questionable. But he is entitled to his opinions. His actual opinions are not the issue. The real issue that comes up when he's criticized, is the fact he's one dimensional i.e., hejust denes others works, he never proposes any original or constructive alternatives.

What he has done, is to argue that those who discuss the holocaust, do so in a way to explout it to justify the existence of Israel. To do this, hetakes other peoples' works and counter argues using such claims. He also makes accusations that not just Israelis but all Jews are involved in a financial conspiracy to misrepresent the holocaust for financial gain. The problem is when he has done this he presents subjective remarks without reference and tries to suggest they are facts. When he has made references to his arguments, they have been exposed as false, or misquoted. Not all of them, but enough of them to give serious question to his credibility.

Because he is the son of a holocaust survivor he has become the most quoted anti-semite next to Naom Chomsky his mentor. Every neo-Nazi quotes him arguing since he is a Jew he can't be criticized. They say since he is a Jew, his anti-semitism is acceptable.

The point is the only reason he has gained as much attention as he has is precisely because he is a Jew. If he was anything but a Jew he would have been dismissed as a sad anti-semite.

Ironically the argument that a Jew can't be anti-semitic is in itself an anti-semitic concept in that it makes a gross generalization about all Jews being the same and therefore can then be used negatively against them and its precisely why David Duke and so many other avid anti-semites and Hamas and the President of Iran embrace him.

He has repeatedly been caught misquoted Hanah Arendt, Eli Wiesel (holocaust survivo) and Jerzi Kosinzki (non Jewish holocaust survicor, Polish)and likes to quote David Irving a holocaust denier verbatum.

His views would be highly offensive to holocaust survivors anywhere, Jewish or not, i.e., would also be offensive to gay, Roma, 7th Day Adventist, Jehova's Witness, holocaust survivors, Russian prisoners in the concentration camps and all the righteous gentiles that died saving Jews and others from the Nazis. They have all condemned his comments on the holocaust for various reasons/

He has openly called for Israel being dismantled and encouraging Hamas to continue to engage in terror to achieve its political goals.

He's one of those guys that loves getting attention by negative behaviour-shock behaviour.

He is entitled to his opinions but there is a time and place and the West Bank which is a powder keg is not the time or place.

By the way If you want to read harsh critiques of Israeli policies that do not engage in holocaust denial or suggesting holocaust survivors are manipulative whores, all you have to do is talk to any Israeli who has to pay taxes or drive a car or read its Supreme Court decisions, its newspapers, or listen to the comments of any of its politicians in the Knesset. Nothing he has said can compare to what Israelis say about each other.

The real issue is that his comments could incite violence against both Palestinians and Israelis. He is as rude about King Abdullah of Jordan and Abbas as he is about Israel. He tries to antagonize many people not just holocaust survivors.

Edited by Rue
Link to post
Share on other sites
Lol. He is. Look in the ideal world he should not have been deported simply because of his political opinions. Problem is his trip was organized by Hamas and his agenda was to go to the West Bank and engage in a deliberately provocative series of comments to trigger off extremist Jewish settlers and Palestinians fighting one another.

Rue, that is simply NOT true. He was going to the West Bank to visit a friend of his, who happens to work for B'TSelem.

CBC Radio Norman's interview starts at around 16:40.

And you have the gall to talk about 'honesty'. Yet, you supply NO links (you rarely ever do) just lines and lines of your own opinion, however skewed that may be. Fact is, Rue, this time you have been caught - outright. Finkelstein's visit had nothing at all to do with Hamas.

There are many self-loathing Jewish foreigners who actually live in Israel and do nothing but engage in anti-semitic commentary. The difference is they do not travel to the West Bank and do not have the high profile he does.
Care to name a few so I can debunk this as well?? Or is any Israeli who is critical of their governments' policies vis a vis the Occupied Palestinian Territories simply a 'self-hater' according to you (what a stupid term that is BTW, appealing to the emotion with NO shred of evidence).
The reality is if he was an extremist ultra right week racist Jew going to the West Bank they would have given him the boot too. Its not so much his opinion. The fact that he is very anti-Israel is not so much the factor as it is his extreme views which would provoke incitement and endanger both Israelis and Palestinians.

What like the Kahanists? Lot's of them in the West Bank, hey they ain't being booted out Rue, they are being protected by the IDF!! Again - innuendo and outright LIES. Do you even know anything about Dr. Finkelstein? Ever read any of his books or papers? Hmmm?? No? Didn't think so - that much is clear from your comments so far.

In regards to his specific opinions he's been dismissed by academics because of quoting non existent references or misquoting references or presenting subjective opinions as facts. But then he is a political scientist not an historian so while his technical academic methods are extremely lacking they are not as significant as if he were claiming to he an historian. He doesn't.

Again, not true. Care to point out the errors? Care to include a link to these so-called scholars? Could you mean Alan (yes I approve of torture) Dershowitz?? You know, the guy who 'copied' most of 'From Time Immemorial' by Joan Peters - and even got some of his own 'quotes wrong' (not that it matters since Peter's work has already been discredited?

What he has done, is to argue that those who discuss the holocaust, do so in a way to explout it to justify the existence of Israel. To do this, hetakes other peoples' works and counter argues using such claims. He also makes accusations that not just Israelis but all Jews are involved in a financial conspiracy to misrepresent the holocaust for financial gain. The problem is when he has done this he presents subjective remarks without reference and tries to suggest they are facts. When he has made references to his arguments, they have been exposed as false, or misquoted. Not all of them, but enough of them to give serious question to his credibility.

Absolutely not true at all, again Rue. You however always lump all Jews together - under the umbrella of extremist zionist Israel. Thanks, but no thanks - I don't personally beleive that Israel represents the hopes or desires of ALL Jews. Nor do I think that the Holocaust is an excuse to inflict collective punishment on other peoples - which it is used as to silence any discussion of Israel's rather nazi like tactics wrt the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Have you even read 'The Holocaust Industry'? If you ever do, you will notice that there are almost more footnotes and references than there is of the written book itself. You should give it a read Rue. Really. There is no doubt that the memory of the Holocaust is certainly used by 'some' to end all discussion on the illegal acts of the rogue nation named Israel, and it does a disservice to all - the survivors (who never see their reparations monies) and to the victims of the Nazi regime as well.

Because he is the son of a holocaust survivor he has become the most quoted anti-semite next to Naom Chomsky his mentor. Every neo-Nazi quotes him arguing since he is a Jew he can't be criticized. They say since he is a Jew, his anti-semitism is acceptable.

Ahhh! LOL I was wondering when you'd spit out your favourite accussation: ANTI SEMITE!! What total nonsense - as also used to stifle discussion! Well done Rue, you fall into that trap all the time. BTW - both his parents were survivors. You might just want to educate youself a little about him and his roots. Many of us have lost family to the camps durring that time - does that make all of us who are critical of the State of Israel anti-semites? Or are we all self-haters? What nonsense Rue - your spin is usually (though not that often) better than that.

The point is the only reason he has gained as much attention as he has is precisely because he is a Jew. If he was anything but a Jew he would have been dismissed as a sad anti-semite.

Ironically the argument that a Jew can't be anti-semitic is in itself an anti-semitic concept in that it makes a gross generalization about all Jews being the same and therefore can then be used negatively against them and its precisely why David Duke and so many other avid anti-semites and Hamas and the President of Iran embrace him.

He has repeatedly been caught misquoted Hanah Arendt, Eli Wiesel (holocaust survivo) and Jerzi Kosinzki (non Jewish holocaust survicor, Polish)and likes to quote David Irving a holocaust denier verbatum.

Cite? (oh and nicely done - 4 'anti-semites' and one reference to Duke and Irving - trying out guilt by association now? Even though Norman has NOTHING to do with either of these men?? LMAO - pretty weak there Rue - but hey whatever floats your boat eh?

He has openly called for Israel being dismantled and encouraging Hamas to continue to engage in terror to achieve its political goals.

Cite? Again - nothing but a pack of lies Rue. He has NEVER encouraged anyone to engage in 'terror'. He is a stauch supporter of the two state solution - within the framework similar to the Arab League's 2002 initiative. Good grief - do you only get your opinion of him from the likes of Dershowitz and mags like 'Forward'??

Why don't you go on down to your local library and get out a copy of 'Beyond Chutzpah'. It is a very well researched, and well written account of how history can be abused and the term anti-semite (one of your faves) is misused.

Edited to add this link to Dr. Finkelstein's website, for those here who have minds that aren't already shut tight with their fingers in their ears screeching 'la la la'.

:P

Edited by buffycat
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
bump

Hey Rue - what is the matter?

Truth hurt or something?

Yooooooohoooooooooo!??

Your silence says so much more than your usual diatribes.

I just have had time to read your response.

In regards to you suggesting Finklesrein has not insulted and become personal with Weisel and the others I mentioned, I will not respond to cbecause its public domain and knowledge and if you want to pretend it does not exist goodee Buffy.

As for you demanding a link to Hamas, why don't you read what Normie said after Israel deportred him. He came out and said he did not blame Israel for deporting him as he was in regular contact with Hamas and Hezbollah.

What you think he just decided to travel to the West Bank out of the blue? Good God Buffy even Normie is more honest then you and admits his political motives. Give it a rest.

As for his inflammatory speeaches what planet do you live on Buffy. Are you going to tell me you are oblivious to his speach calling on palestinians in the West Bank to revolt?

Buffy stop being so damn selective and read what Normie writes and listen to his words. Not very hard to understand what he is about.

And he is the most blatant example of an anti-semite. His references to holocaust survivors being liars to manipulate their tragedy to gain financial compensation is as dispicable and as low as it gets. For you to try suggest he is not anti-semitic really even for you Buffy is just absurd. Read what he writes about all Jews. His smeers are done without any references.

Its funny you ask me to provide references about what Finklestein says. Why? Can you not be honest with me and admit you read what he writes about holocaust survivors and how his comments assign negative motives and characteristics to all holocaust siurvivors and Jews?

You think you can defend this man's academic portfolio? Read his works. He has never initiated an original thought. His entire premises is to take someone else's work and provide a response to it. His responses are subjective not objective. He does not provide respnses that provide objective facts. Read what he writes. He quotes other writers with the same opinion as him.

In fact he ahs been caught red handed plagerizing, using the wrong references, and misquoting people. He has been caught creatingalleged events that did not happen and attributing quotes to people who never said what he claims they said.

This you want to hang your hat on? Normie Finklestein someone who thinks if he hates his Jewish identity it will make him liked?

This is what you hold out as a paragon in honest thought?

Weak even for you,

Link to post
Share on other sites

So you want a specific response to Finklestein’s anti-semitism Buffy? Tell me what do you call a man who argues that educating people and remembering the holocaust is a deliberate sinister attempt to exploit the world financially for Jews and to justify Israel’s existence? What would you call attacking and assigning negative motives to all Jews and anyone who wants to remind the world of the holocaust and the existence of the State of Israel?

In his latest book which is nothing more then subjective opinions he states not me that anti-Semitism is simply as a result of Israel's occupation of Palestinian land.

You want an example of Finklestein’s intellectual genius ? Try his March 2006 speech at Columbia University. He stated that it was now common for critics of Israel to be referred to as Holocaust deniers, and that Holocaust epithets would enter the slang lexicon, such as "mother-Holocauster".

That is what typifies him. Someone who makes sweeping subjective generalizations about Jews that are negative and designed to incite hatred.

Figures Buffy you would be pone of his groupies.

Link to post
Share on other sites
So you want a specific response to Finklestein’s anti-semitism Buffy? Tell me what do you call a man who argues that educating people and remembering the holocaust is a deliberate sinister attempt to exploit the world financially for Jews and to justify Israel’s existence? What would you call attacking and assigning negative motives to all Jews and anyone who wants to remind the world of the holocaust and the existence of the State of Israel?

In his latest book which is nothing more then subjective opinions he states not me that anti-Semitism is simply as a result of Israel's occupation of Palestinian land.

You want an example of Finklestein’s intellectual genius ? Try his March 2006 speech at Columbia University. He stated that it was now common for critics of Israel to be referred to as Holocaust deniers, and that Holocaust epithets would enter the slang lexicon, such as "mother-Holocauster".

That is what typifies him. Someone who makes sweeping subjective generalizations about Jews that are negative and designed to incite hatred.

Figures Buffy you would be pone of his groupies.

He stated that it was now common for critics of Israel to be referred to as Holocaust deniers,

why ,was he wrong about this rue?

was he?

in fact isn't he correct on this, just recalling your own shrill use of this term, along with other posters here.

I would say that he is 100 percent right on that observation.

Link to post
Share on other sites
why ,was he wrong about this rue?

was he?

in fact isn't he correct on this, just recalling your own shrill use of this term, along with other posters here.

I would say that he is 100 percent right on that observation.

My family was touched by the Holocaust as was buffy's, apparently. Mr Finkelstein doesn't hold that monopoly. Who made him the standard barer for our collective dead or surviving family members? If you ask me, he's the one making a buck off the whole operation.

------------------------------------

The honorable thing now is to show solidarity with Hizbullah as the US and Israel target it for liquidation.

---Norman Finkelstein

Edited by DogOnPorch
Link to post
Share on other sites
why ,was he wrong about this rue?

was he?

in fact isn't he correct on this, just recalling your own shrill use of this term, along with other posters here.

I would say that he is 100 percent right on that observation.

Why because you agree with him? Tell me. Just what gives you and Funklestein this magic abiility to make sweeping negative generalizations about the motives, beliefs and feelings of anyone?

That is the point Kuzadd. His remarks about Jews using the holocaust to manipulate for political purposes is not based on objective fact, its based on subjective remarks that have no basis at all.

He does this because h e is what is called a self-loather. Self-loathers believe to get people to like them they need to go to the people they sense hate them the most and get those people to like them by portraying themselves as self-admitting demons.

Finklestein has zero credibility precisely because his whole shtick is based on the fact he uses his status as a Jews and son of a holocaust survivor to justify his hatred. If he's a Jew and a holocaust survivor's son then what he says must be true. Why?

Why? Its not true simply because he claims to be a Jew.

You buy it, because it fits your political opinions of Israel and Zionism evil and immoral.

If he was not a Jew, if he was anything else you could not quote him or use him and you'd be accused of being a blatant hate monger for referring to him.

The only reason Finklestein is printed and people like you tout him is because he is a Jew, no other reason.

Go on, produce for me the objective statistics and analysis he used to determine the motives of all holocaust survivors.

You won't find any.

Here is what I have to say Kuzadd. Anyone, and I mean anyone who engages in subjective negative generalizations of a group of people is not an academic, they are a hate monger.

Any hateful person can do that and all it does is incite peoples worst emotions-hate, spite, resentment, jelaousy, distrust, loathing, envy.

You want to debate me Kuzadd of course. But usually when you debate, unlike Finklestein you are upfront about when its your subjective opinion and not an objective fact you are presenting. Unlike you, Finklestein does not do that.

The best think any of us can do Kuzadd is to try discipline ourselves to avoid subjective negative generalizations designed to hurt and insult people and ridicule them. It won't make us credible.

Link to post
Share on other sites

rue, you are hilarious, the master of sweeping generalizations, and you talk about anyone else???

well it is my laugh of the day, look at your post, look at mine??

I quoted or cited one, just one statement of finkelstein's

"He stated that it was now common for critics of Israel to be referred to as Holocaust deniers,"

which I had put in quotations, then I noted"

"

why ,was he wrong about this rue?

was he?

in fact isn't he correct on this, just recalling your own shrill use of this term, along with other posters here.

I would say that he is 100 percent right on that observation."

then you go on to make a post full of sweeping generalizations in reference to one item, one point that was made.

You infact, do not read, nor ever adress anything another poster has actually said, as you have done this to me on more then on occasion, though one time you at least acknowledged it?

I will give credit where credit is due.

But, ya know Rue , if you are going to accuse someone of making sweeping generalizations, you should ensure it is you yourself, that is not the one engaging in it.

and yet you are!

You always are!

I loathe generalisations, personally,I have have faced my share of discriminatory actions and statements actually made to me, in my life. Including sweeping generalisations, and endless stereotyping. If you ever actually read, anything I have written, you would know that.

But, you don't , you generalize and interpret based on your own biased judgement.

Edited by kuzadd
Link to post
Share on other sites
rue, you are hilarious, the master of sweeping generalizations, and you talk about anyone else???

well it is my laugh of the day, look at your post, look at mine??

I quoted or cited one, just one statement of finkelstein's

which I had put in quotations, then I noted"

"

then you go on to make a post full of sweeping generalizations in reference to one item, one point that was made.

You infact, do not read, nor ever adress anything another poster has actually said, as you have done this to me on more then on occasion, though one time you at least acknowledged it?

I will give credit where credit is due.

But, ya know Rue , if you are going to accuse someone of making sweeping generalizations, you should ensure it is you yourself, that is not the one engaging in it.

and yet you are!

You always are!

I loathe generalisations, personally,I have have faced my share of discriminatory actions and statements actually made to me, in my life. Including sweeping generalisations, and endless stereotyping. If you ever actually read, anything I have written, you would know that.

But, you don't , you generalize and interpret based on your own biased judgement.

Kuzadd read my next response to Buffy it also responds to your attempt at portraying yourself as a sweet innocent open minded purveyor of truth. Hah. You are funny Kuzadd. Tell me if I started throwing back anti-Muslim hate mongers in your face in my debates, which I never do, you would be the first to scream how bigoted I am now wouldn't you.

Interesting. I dop remember you accusing a lot of people of engaging in negative generalizations about Muslims but youy have no problem being a Finklestein groupie. Gee can't understand why,

By the way Kuzadd, I am very specific in my opinions. Go on, show me where I have engaged in a generalization about an entire group of people. Go on. Please. Do show me.

Kuzadd the fact that I will not buy into some anti-semitic hate monger's diatribes does not mean I am generalizing. Kuzadd the fact I loath someone does not mean I am generalizing. It means I loath them. I am very clear in this case why I loath Finklestein and why I loath it when you and Buffy jump on these hate mongers bandwagons.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Kuzadd read my next response to Buffy it also responds to your attempt at portraying yourself as a sweet innocent open minded purveyor of truth. Hah. You are funny Kuzadd. Tell me if I started throwing back anti-Muslim hate mongers in your face in my debates, which I never do, you would be the first to scream how bigoted I am now wouldn't you.

Interesting. I dop remember you accusing a lot of people of engaging in negative generalizations about Muslims but youy have no problem being a Finklestein groupie. Gee can't understand why,

By the way Kuzadd, I am very specific in my opinions. Go on, show me where I have engaged in a generalization about an entire group of people. Go on. Please. Do show me.

Kuzadd the fact that I will not buy into some anti-semitic hate monger's diatribes does not mean I am generalizing. Kuzadd the fact I loath someone does not mean I am generalizing. It means I loath them. I am very clear in this case why I loath Finklestein and why I loath it when you and Buffy jump on these hate mongers bandwagons.

no rue, you are not specific in your opinions and you never have been, read what you have written, yet again.

Then read it again.

You see a person who did not repeatedly use generalisations wouldn't have said the things you did in either post. And, would have responded to the ONE thing I pointed out.

You never did.

and instead went into another generalisation.

" but youy have no problem being a Finklestein groupie."

generalization! and a big one at that!'

"

I dop remember you accusing a lot of people of engaging in negative generalizations about Muslims'

do you? Of course you did, as I am certain that is what would draw your attention given your biases.

But I actually wrote a number of times about the racism and stereotyping I and extended family were subjected to as Italian immigrants in Canada, and their offspring.

You see I loathe generalisations, and you Rue, are the master of them.

Edited by kuzadd
Link to post
Share on other sites

Here you go Buffy a responbse to comments that I am a liar, define any Jew who does not support Israel as an anti-semite and self-loathing, and should be finding out about my Jewish heritage from Norman Finklestein.

In his text the Holocaust Industry Finklestein repeats the ancient anti-semitic canard which became prominent in the forged work, Protocols of the Elders of Zion what he used the term “ Jewish elites” and stated without any proof that they have created an industry to perpetuate the memory of the holocaust as a ploy to extort money, to gain influence and to prevent any criticism of Israel.

This reference uses the negative stereotype caricature of the sinister, conspiring Jew who manipulates, deceives and lies. In so doing he simply uses this negative stereotype to smeer any Jew who wishes to honour the holocaust and educate people as to its consequences and portrays its victims who may have received compensation as thieves and liars. After insulting all holocaust survivors and Jews in general, he then links these anti-semitic references to the further suggestion that the holocaust was used to manipulate the world into supporting Israel.

It is precisely this demonization of all Jews, particular demonization of victims of the holocaust as sinister, manipulative thieves and then taking these two categories and using them in a composite stereotype of the sinister Jew behind the creation of Israel is designed to do but one thing-incite hate for all Jews.

There is nothing academic or scholarly about making such remarks. They are designed to smeer all Jews with negative characteristics when discussing Israel and that is precisely what makes them anti-semitic.

Such subjective remarks may influence people like you Buffy who are attracted to them precisely because of their simplicity and subjectivity but they disgust people like me because they belittle the work of true historic and academic scholars.

Tell me Buffy do you find it admirable that a man like Finklestein would refer to holocaust survivor Eli Wiesel as a “resident clown” and dismisses Wiesel’s literature, works, holocaust education initiatives and peacemaking efforts between Jews and non Jews as simply that of manipulative deception to make people sorry for Jews? You find that something to admire?

You have a problem with me referring to Finklestein as a self-loathing Jew Buffy? . Tell me Buffy when did you become a Jew to understand what that means? You seem to feel you can lecture me on my own history and what the holocaust should mean to me right? That is what you said was it not Buffy? Here Buffy read back the following comments from Norm Finklestein and tell me why they do not reflect the words of a Jew who hates himself for being Jewish and for heaven's sake Buffy can you try remember I am Jewish and so when I read another Jew saying such things it may mean something a bit more difficult for me to absorb then you..;

1-" These elites, the hidden hand of "organized American Jewry" behind the Holocaust industry, have one goal: not the teaching of history but the furthering of "Jewish aggrandizement." (Holocaust Industry);

2- Jewish organizations "steal, and I do use the word with intent, 95 percent of the monies earmarked for victims of Nazi persecution" (Counterpunch, Dec. 13, 2001);

3- Jews "are not Zionist by conviction, they are Zionist because it is useful for their political and more recently financial self-interest" (Counterpunch, Dec. 13, 2001).

4- “Israeli actions are "Nazi practices but with novelties to the Nazi experiments added" (lecture in Beirut in June 2002).

5- "I'm not exaggerating when I say that one out of three Jews you stop in the street in New York will claim to be a survivor. Particularly irksome are those "arriviste and shtetl-chauvinist Jews of Eastern European descent like New York City mayor Edward Koch and (former) New York Times Executive Editor A.M. Rosenthal." (BBCRadio)

You want to lecture me Buffy on reading Finklestein and denying he is a self-loathing Jew, do me a favour, read him yourself and stop denying what he says and how they reflect his on self-loathing and pretending irs based on academic research.

Tell me Buffy, did you not notice when Finklstein smeers all Jews with such negative stereotypes he always prefaces such subjective and hateful negative generalizations by referring to the fact he is the son of a child of holocaust survivor?

Are you that blinded by your anti-Zionist ideology you can't see it Buffy? Did it ever dawn on you that Norman Finklestein’s entire career is based on manipulating his Jewish identity..the very same thing he accuses other Jews of ? Buffy are you that devoid of being able to understand self-contradiction when you see it? Are you?

Not only does he accuse others of the exact same thing he engages in but he does something else. He gives you the thesis you want, that Jews are evil and sinister and manipulative on a platter, but tell us Buffy, if what he says is true, then think Buffy, since he is a Jew it necessarily must be untrue or dear Buffy are you telling us that if a Jew calls other Jews demons and manipulative thieves, presto! they suddenly are to be trusted, Is that how it works in your world Buffy? The evil sinister manipulative Jew is redeemed if they tell the world they are evil and smell bad...then suddenly you can believe them?

Tell me Buffy. What is scholarly let alone credible about Finklstein remarking in his book that Steven Spielberg, NBC and Leon Uris are part of a holocaust conspiracy to manipulate the world into supporting Israel? What is scholarly about remarking that the movie "Schindler's List," was deliberately created by Spielberg to divert attention from our middle east policy and yell out these words during an interview to support this conspiracy theory; "Give me a better reason! . . . Who profits? Basically, there are two beneficiaries from the dogmas [of Schindler's List]: American Jews and American administration….NBC broadcast "Holocaust" to strengthen Israel's position…In 1978, NBC produced the series Holocaust. Do you believe, it was a coincidence, 1978? Just at this time, when peace negotiations between Israel and Egypt took place in Camp David?.... Leon Uris, the author of "Exodus," named his character "Ari" in order to promote Israel's "Nazi" ideology…Ari is the diminutive for Aryan. It is the whole admiration for this blond haired, blue eyed type."

By the way Buffy, Ari is a Jewish Biblical name. Buffy I am not so sure of. Sounds like mid West Iowa, chear-leader, vampire slayer, Beverly Hills.

Tell me now Buffy why its scholarly for any human let alone Finklestein to remark as he did that "the main fomenters of anti-Semitism "are 'American Jewish elites' who need to be stopped" or brag in his speeches and lectures that he can say what he wants about Jews because he is the son of a holocaust survivor?

As for your portrayal of Finklestein’s trip to the West Bank as a harmless innocent visit to a human rights activist that's nice Buffy. Of course. He's a nice man. He was innocent. He’s just another innocent victim caught in the Zionist nightmare and onslaught against humanity.

Good Lord Buffy is that what this again comes down to? You looking to such people to justify such simplistic hateful stereotypical dialogue?

You keep asking for links. Why don't you just go to his web-site and read his comments about Hamas or Hezbollah and his speeches on how Palestinians should start a civil uprising on the West Bank.

Can’t wait until you lecture me on how Ann Frank was a manipulative and sinister Jew.

Link to post
Share on other sites
no rue, you are not specific in your opinions and you never have been, read what you have written, yet again.

Then read it again.

You see a person who did not repeatedly use generalisations wouldn't have said the things you did in either post. And, would have responded to the ONE thing I pointed out.

You never did.

and instead went into another generalisation.

generalization! and a big one at that!'

"

do you? Of course you did, as I am certain that is what would draw your attention given your biases.

But I actually wrote a number of times about the racism and stereotyping I and extended family were subjected to as Italian immigrants in Canada, and their offspring.

You see I loathe generalisations, and you Rue, are the master of them.

So I am waiting. Go back. I have left many words on this forum. Go find them. Go find where I have negatively stereotyped anyone. Please. Go find some generalizations. Don't just accuse me of them. Throw them back at me. I wait with warm welcome arms.

Good luck.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Okay, the article is obviously biased and all, but I really do wonder what the flip side to the argument is, and what kind of "security" threat they perceive Finklestein to pose to Israel.
Sedition perhaps?
Link to post
Share on other sites
So I am waiting. Go back. I have left many words on this forum. Go find them. Go find where I have negatively stereotyped anyone. Please. Go find some generalizations. Don't just accuse me of them. Throw them back at me. I wait with warm welcome arms.

Good luck.

did you answer the question I queried of you?

nope.

could you answer the question?

are you even capable?

one generalization, I already pointed one out to you.

over your head though, of course.

"The best think any of us can do Kuzadd is to try discipline ourselves to avoid subjective negative generalizations designed to hurt and insult people and ridicule them. It won't make us credible."

that is why you are not credible and are hypocritical.

you regularly use negative generalizations designed to hurt and insult, and still you don't see it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Here you go Buffy a responbse to comments that I am a liar, define any Jew who does not support Israel as an anti-semite and self-loathing, and should be finding out about my Jewish heritage from Norman Finklestein.

Well, Rue as far as the lie goes - iirc about Dr. Finkelstein's visit to the West Bank being arranged by Hamas - then show me where I was wrong to call you on that (note absence of too over the top personal insults and inneundo on my part as well). Sheesh.

You have defined many Jews as self-haters (or to use your ramped up version self-loathers ohhhhhh) who do not see eye to eye with the Israeli Administration's actions in the Occupied Territories. Never have I seen you support any of those brave men and women who do work for peace and understanding, and who are (much to your disgust it seems) Jewish. I have often mentioned others, people like Uri Avnery, Ilan Pappe, Israel Shahak, Ben Halper, Amira Hass, Gideon Levy - the list is truly endless including all the honourable men and women at organisations such as B'TSelem, Peace Now, ICAHD, and all the other truly positive forces in the fray. I guess they are all self loathers to you.

In his text the Holocaust Industry Finklestein repeats the ancient anti-semitic canard which became prominent in the forged work, Protocols of the Elders of Zion what he used the term “ Jewish elites” and stated without any proof that they have created an industry to perpetuate the memory of the holocaust as a ploy to extort money, to gain influence and to prevent any criticism of Israel.

This reference uses the negative stereotype caricature of the sinister, conspiring Jew who manipulates, deceives and lies. In so doing he simply uses this negative stereotype to smeer any Jew who wishes to honour the holocaust and educate people as to its consequences and portrays its victims who may have received compensation as thieves and liars. After insulting all holocaust survivors and Jews in general, he then links these anti-semitic references to the further suggestion that the holocaust was used to manipulate the world into supporting Israel.

Nonsense Rue, of course he makes reference to these stereotypes - they have to be discussed as it is the only way to rid ourselves of them all 'round. There are, despite what you may think, some pretty nasty people with a little power out there who call themselves Jews, Christians and Muslim. These individuals hide behind the religious cloth of their own choosing - yet do not and are not representative of the vast majority of others who may also identify with some particular 'G-d'. Are you saying Rue, that there simply couldn't be exploitation of Jewish suffering during WW2 going on simply because Jews wouldn't allow their own elites to act that way? Or are you saying that no Jew has ever exploited another? What a massive generalisation, and what a massive error on your part Rue.

What Finkelstein is saying is that the tactics of some of these exploiters plays into the hateful lies of true antisemites (no different than any other kind of ethnic hatred) by actually being scum sucking fraudsters. Even you must know about how much of the monies earmarked for Survivors and their families has been pilfered by various lawyers and bureaucrats along the way. Many survivors barely see any of it.

As for the Holocaust being used to manipulate the world into supporting Israel, one cannot separate the creation of Israel from the devastation of the Holocaust - they are part of one another. To deny this is fool's errand. It has sadly also been hijacked often to stop discussions on the rather more questionable actions of Israel wrt the Occupied Territories - that's a fact - plain and simple. So, if you don't like the idea that the deaths of millions is being used to justify an aparthied regime guilty of ethnic cleansing and collective punishment, make a brave start Rue and you stop doing it yourself.

Finkelstein does NOT blame or claim to speak for all Jews. I think he leaves that canard to people like you and Alan. ;) Talk again about sweeping generalisations Rue - it seems for all your kvetching you can't seem to stop doing what you are accusing others of.. *sigh*

Such subjective remarks may influence people like you Buffy who are attracted to them precisely because of their simplicity and subjectivity but they disgust people like me because they belittle the work of true historic and academic scholars.

Well Rue, since I don't actually subscribe to the train of thought which you are accusing me of, nor does your subjective analysis of Norman's work actually hold any water, the above attempted slur is moot. Though I will ask - do you consider Joan Peter's work as scholarly? pffft, and of course what about Alan's? pfft. lol

Tell me Buffy do you find it admirable that a man like Finklestein would refer to holocaust survivor Eli Wiesel as a “resident clown” and dismisses Wiesel’s literature, works, holocaust education initiatives and peacemaking efforts between Jews and non Jews as simply that of manipulative deception to make people sorry for Jews? You find that something to admire?

I admire those who have to courage to rout our liars and fraudsters - where ever they are found. No group has the corner on the market for telling lies and profitting from them - or gee - are you saying that since these people might happen to be Jewish they would never lie??

You have a problem with me referring to Finklestein as a self-loathing Jew Buffy? . yak yak yak

I have a problem with the whole label of 'Self-Hatering Jews'. I'd laugh if the whole thing wasn't so damn tragic. Really it's sad on so many levels - but it sure goes along way to diverting discussions and stifling debates - look how you are trying to do this here. Tell me do you contribute and support the SHIT list? You seem to advocate using the term against those Jews who might just disagree with your opinions on the actions of the Israeli governments and their lobbyists. Tell me - if one is a self hater (lol) does that automatically enter one into the club of Anti-semites as well? What about a free ticket to Holocaust Denial - are they included in the one way self loather fare?

:rolleyes:

You want to lecture me Buffy on reading Finklestein and denying he is a self-loathing Jew, do me a favour, read him yourself and stop denying what he says and how they reflect his on self-loathing and pretending irs based on academic research.

Tell me Buffy, did you not notice when Finklstein smeers all Jews with such negative stereotypes he always prefaces such subjective and hateful negative generalizations by referring to the fact he is the son of a child of holocaust survivor?

Since I don't believe in self-hating Jews (they are up there with the Easter Bunny) and I have actually read Finkelstein's books, as well as attending his lectures, I'll just have to agree to disagree with you wrt your take on Norman. That's fine with me. But to say he is smearing all Jews is ridiculous and a gross over generalisation. Why shouldn't he say his is the son of Survivors - he is. So what? Lots of folks are - does that get one into a special club too? Why shouldn't someone point out when for example, a book is published and found to be a hoax? Should this not be brought to attention? How is that self hating? I think it's more 'hating' of those who give the rest a bad name. If one fraudulent document is out there - then does that not diminish the real suffering endured by the legitimate victims? Sort of like fake rape accusations - it serves to diminish and cast doubt on the real ones. That's not self loathing... what a ridiculous concept, but hey you seem to endorse it all to the nth degree.

Are you that blinded by your anti-Zionist ideology you can't see it Buffy? Did it ever dawn on you that Norman Finklestein’s entire career is based on manipulating his Jewish identity..the very same thing he accuses other Jews of ? Buffy are you that devoid of being able to understand self-contradiction when you see it? Are you?

Uh... obviously not - if you can follow what I've written on so many occassions - oh I forgot - you don't read what others say you just spin it. Dizzy yet?

As for your portrayal of Finklestein’s trip to the West Bank as a harmless innocent visit to a human rights activist that's nice Buffy. Of course. He's a nice man. He was innocent. He’s just another innocent victim caught in the Zionist nightmare and onslaught against humanity.

Well Rue, it was a harmless visit to a friend. You have failed to show otherwise and attack him only because you happen to disagree with his position wrt Israel and her actions in the OPT. What's new?

You keep asking for links. Why don't you just go to his web-site and read his comments about Hamas or Hezbollah and his speeches on how Palestinians should start a civil uprising on the West Bank.

*sigh*

I do frequent his website already thanks, hence why I probably know a little more about what his views really are as opposed to the Channelling of Alan you engage in. WRT the Palestinians 'uprising' they have every right to - he has never advocated a violent uprising - quite the opposite. I think it is you who needs to do some real reading and listening to what the man is actually saying, instead of channeling alan all the time.

Can’t wait until you lecture me on how Ann Frank was a manipulative and sinister Jew.

Now that is just about the most stupid thing you've ever tried to smear me with. Firstly - why drag that poor child into your guilt by random association technique? I have never mentioned her and her terrible fate. Now who is being sinister and manipulative Rue? (holding up a mirror for you to look at).

Shalom

Link to post
Share on other sites

Kuzadd I actually answered the question you are asking quite a few times to you and others but if you want me to answer it yet again I will. I in fact even answered it again in my response to Buffy. That obviously went over your head. You keep asking me to answer a question I haev responded to so many times one wonders why you would ask it of me again but here we go again.

If someone criticizes Israel foreign policy or social policies or economic policies, good for them. As I have said so many times, criticizing Israeli social or economic or foreign policies does not make one an anti-semite. I have done it many a time on this forum.

What I have also stated, if one engages in such criticism using references that assign negative motives and general characteristics to all Jews and deliberately incites hatred against all Jews in their discussions and criticism of Israel, that is anti-semitic.

It is also anti-semitic to suggest Jews as a people are not entitled to universal sufferage unless you state the same comment for all other people of the world including Palestinians. Its a bullshit double standard to say one people can not have universal sufferage but everyone else can.

I gave you specific examples of why Finklestein is an anti-semitic hate monger. Specific examples. He has slurred holocaust survivors, ALL holocaust survivors as being part of a conspiracy to dupe and obtain unfair financial compensation and he has suggested Jews have exploited and deliberately misused the holocaust to create and then gain sympathy for the state of Israel.

That is anti-semitic pap. It is pure subjective opinion based on raising negative character generalizations which suggest victims are victimizers and suggests all Jews not just some, and all holocaust survivors not some, manipulate and deceive and are part of a Zionist conspiracy.

It is a crock of hateful shit and its precisely why I called Buffy a groupy because she came on this forum extolling Finklestein and applauding his comments and urging me to read them and accept them as scholarly examples of referenced discussion about Israel.

Its pure subjective bullshit. None of his references can or do prove what he has said and he and you know that.

This is a man whose sole contribution to the dialogue of the Middle East is to make deliberate statements designed to upset and insult Jews and then to deliberately use his status as a son of a holocaust survivor to gain instant high moral ground and suggest this in itself allows him to be a hate monger against Jews. His claiming to be a Jew or a son of a holocaust survivor does not change the words and implications of them.

What else do I need to spell out for you. Would you have the audacity to tell a rape victim she is a sinister evil demon because she goes to the criminal compensation board for financial assistance?

What kind of bullshit is that? You think insulting holocaust victims and belittling their memories and suggesting their legal right to compensation is bullshit establishes facts let alone salient objective positions?

The kind of hatred Finklestein engages in is a prime example of intellectual laziness. He does not engage in objective fact finding. Read what he writes. He takes someone else's comment, and then responds to it allegedly criticizing it. Look at his method of criticism. Read his alleged foot notes and references for his positions. He does not provide statistics and/rantified methods of analysis nor does he engage in any kind of objective measurement. He takes subjective opinions and poses them as facts. He assigns motives to entire groups of people with zero proof and relying on inference.

This is a man who when he taught told his students they could not question his opinions and if he did not agree with their opinions he would mark them as a D or an F. Why don't you read the feedback from his students who could not handle his dictatorial style and demand that people repeat his opinions?

Go on. Get on the inter-net and listen to how he debates. You think that is evidence of a scholar, a man using logic and reasoning to engage in discussion? Each and every speech consists of him name calling his opponents and projecting negative characteristics on them and becoming personally insulting.

You want a generalization. Here is one. Goldstein is a typical baby boomer. He was born in a generation where he was never told no. He grew up with parents who never said no. This lack of limitation so prevalent with baby boomers in the so called Dr. Spock child rearing era of the 1950-s to 1960's produced a generation of adolescents who were never told no and so are not used to being told they are wrong.

This is further amplified by a phenomena very common with people who survive holocausts and genocides and massacres and go on to have children. Such parents have a tendency to over-protect and molly coddle their children and to try cushion their chilldren from any anguish and pain. The child grows up picking up and inheriting the fears and anxieties of their parents and seeing the world as hostile and in need of confrontation.

Finklestein lashes out at holocaust survivors because he is mad at his own parents for being so weak and he is trying to cleanse himself of his own perceived weaknesses and traits and so he spews the words of the kind of ant-semitic hatred one expects from a self-loathing Jew.

You do not get it because you are not a Jew. We Jews get it. Black people know too well about self-loathing black people. All minorities have self-loathers. Gays have them. Women have them. Everyone group has them.

You mean to tell me you have no idea what a self-loathing Italian is? You have never seen one or met one?

There is nothing profound or difficult about it. All you have to do is look at the words that come out of their mouths.

Anyone who would offer up Finklstein as a scholar let alone someone to admire has a problem with me yes. I despise hate mongers. I hate people who pose subjective opinions as facts. I despise people who assign negative characteristics and motives to an entire people.

It was Finklestein not I who stood up at Columbia University and stated if one walks the streets of New York the Jews all claim to be holocaust survivors not I.

When I discuss the Middle East I do not label Palestinians or Israelis. I am still waiting for you to produce the substance of your allegations that I engage in negative generalizations about people.

When I criticize you or Buffy I am very specific why and when I state an opinion I am very clear not to state it as a fact but as an opinion. I practice what I preach and my disgust and contempt for Finkletein comes naturally.

Kuzadd you be honest with me. I admit I am opinionated, bias and have subjective opinions. But I have made an effort to explain why and I have not engaged in the tactics Finklstein does.

I urge you to see both sides or the many sides of any argument not just one side. Resist the urge to be manipulated by someone who plays on your emotions and manipulates them and tells you what you want to hear.

Be my guest question everything I say. I do not want you to agree with me just understand why I spit at people who smeer holocaust survivors or any other such peoples. Its cheap. Its gutter.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Announcements



  • Tell a friend

    Love Political Discussion Forums? Tell a friend!
×
×
  • Create New...