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Norman Finkelstein Arrested In Israel


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Kuzadd I actually answered the question you are asking quite a few times to you and again in my latest response to Buffy but if you want me to answer it yet again I will.

If someone criticizes Israel foreign policy or social policies or economic policies, good for them. As I have said so many times, criticizing Israeli social or economic or foreign policies does not make one an anti-semite. I have done it many a time on this forum.

What I have also stated, if one engages in such criticism using references that assign negative motives and general characteristics to all Jews and deliberately incites hatred against all Jews in their discussions and criticism of Israel, that is anti-semitic.

It is also anti-semitic to suggest Jews as a people are not entitled to universal sufferage unless you state the same comment for all other people of the world including Palestinians. Its a bullshit double standard to say one people can not have universal sufferage but everyone else can.

I gave you specific examples of why Finklestein is an anti-semitic hate monger. He has slurred holocaust survivors, as being part of a conspiracy to dupe and obtain unfair financial compensation and he has suggested Jews have exploited and deliberately misused the holocaust to create and then gain sympathy for the state of Israel.

That is anti-semitic pap. It is pure subjective opinion based on raising negative character generalizations which suggest victims are victimizers holocaust survivors manipulate and deceive and are part of a Zionist conspiracy.

It is a crock of hateful shit and its precisely why I called Buffy a groupy because she came on this forum extolling Finklestein and applauding his comments and urging me to read them and accept them as scholarly examples of referenced discussion about Israel.

This is a man whose sole contribution to the dialogue of the Middle East is to make deliberate statements designed to upset and insult Jews and then to deliberately use his status as a son of a holocaust survivor to gain instant high moral ground and suggest this in itself allows him to be a hate monger against Jews. His claiming to be a Jew or a son of a holocaust survivor does not change the words and implications of them.

What else do I need to spell out for you? Would you have the audacity to tell a rape victim she is a sinister evil demon because she goes to the criminal compensation board for financial assistance?

What kind of bullshit is that? You think insulting holocaust victims and belittling their memories and suggesting their legal right to compensation is bullshit establishes coherent thoughts or facts let alone salient objective positions?

The kind of hatred Finklestein engages in is a prime example of intellectual laziness. He does not engage in objective fact finding. Read what he writes. He takes someone else's comment, and then responds to it allegedly criticizing it. Look at his method of criticism. Read his alleged foot notes and references for his positions. He does not provide statistics and quantified methods of analysis as a social scientist should nor does he engage in any kind of objective measurement. He postulates subjective opinions as facts. He assigns motives to entire groups of people with zero proof and by relying on incorroborated inference. His comments have een scrutnized by many. He has been taught time and time again misquoting people, using incorrect references, taking comments out of their context, misrepresenting time lines and placing people at times and events when they were either dead or could be publically proven somewhere else.

This is a man who when he taught told his students they could not question his opinions and if he did not agree with their opinions he would mark them as a D or an F. Why don't you read the feedback from his students who could not handle his dictatorial style and demand that people repeat his opinions?

Go on. Get on the inter-net and listen to how he debates. You think that is evidence of a scholar, a man using logic and reasoning to engage in discussion? Each and every speech consists of him name calling his opponents and projecting negative characteristics on them and becoming personally insulting.

Some of his subjective remarks are not hateful. In fact I do not think he should be censored or condemned. I am not afraid of his opinions. I just criticize them and in particular the ones I know are deliberately hateful and he engages in to provoke and get attention for himself.

Of course I am stating my opinion on him. I never claimed otherwise.

You want a generalization. Here is one. In my opinion Goldstein is a typical baby boomer. He was born in a generation where he was never told no. He grew up with parents who never said no. This lack of limitation so prevalent with baby boomers in the so called Dr. Spock child rearing era of the 1950-s to 1960's produced a generation of adolescents who were never told no and so are not used to being told they are wrong.

In his case, such child rearing in my opinion was probably further amplified by a phenomena very common with people who survived the holocaust, holodomor and other genocicides and massacres and go on to have children. Such parents have a tendency to over-protect and molly coddle their children and to try cushion their chilldren from any anguish and pain. In such an environment the child grows up feeling a sense of entitlement, a sense of being perfect and not someone who should be questioned. They pick up and inheritthe fears and anxieties of their parents and resent their parents for being weak and not fighting back and see the world as hostile and in need of confrontation.

In my opinion Finklestein lashes out at holocaust survivors because he is mad at his own parents for being so weak and he is trying to cleanse himself of his own perceived weaknesses and traits and so he spews the words of ant-semitic hatred one expects from a self-loathing Jew and of people who embrace anti-semitism but suddenly think its legitimate and acceptable because its coming from the mouth of a Jew.

You do not get Finklstein the way I do because you are not a Jew. Believe me we Jews get it just like black people get it about self-loathing black people and how all minorities know what self-loathers within their groups are. Gays have them. Women have them. Every group has them. You mean to tell me you have no idea what a self-loathing Italian is? You have never seen one or met one?

There is nothing profound or difficult about understanding why one is self-loathing. All you have to do is read back their words and understand they are talking about themselves. Go back and read some of the humour of Lenny Bruce or Richard Pryor. Ask yourself why blacks refer to themselves as niggers in their humour or why Jackie Mason makes the jokes he has for so many years.

Anyone who would offer up Finklstein as a scholar let alone someone to admire has a problem with me yes. I despise hate mongers. I hate people who pose subjective opinions as facts. I despise people who assign negative characteristics and motives to an entire people.

It was Finklestein not I who stood up at Columbia University and stated if one walks the streets of New York one in 3 Jews claims to be holocaust survivor not I. This is something Finklestein does over and over again, make such subjective remarks as if they are facts and those remarks are designed to do but one thing-promote negative stereotypes designed to incite people to resent and hate Jews and he admits it openly. He brags about it. He has said it over and over in such comments as he can insult Jews and damage them because he is one. What kind of logic is that? I can hate you because I am a Jew and you are? That is logic?

When I discuss the Middle East I do not label Palestinians or Israelis. I am still waiting for you to produce the substance of your allegations that I engage in negative generalizations about people.

When I criticize you or Buffy I am very specific why and when I state an opinion I am very clear not to state it as a fact but as an opinion. I practice what I preach and my disgust and contempt for Finkletein comes naturally.

Kuzadd be honest with me. I admit I am opinionated, bias and have subjective opinions but I have always made an effort to explain why and I have not engaged in the tactics Finklstein does. Go on find one. Find the comment where I assign negative motive to an entire group of people. Please. Provide one example.

The fact I challenge you and Buffy does not mean I engage in generalizations as you have suggested I do. The fact I disagree with you does not mean I generalize. It means I disagree with you. Read my words. Debate the words. Point out what you disagree with. Simply accusing me of generalizations without providing an example proves what?

I will continue to challenge you and me to see both sides or the many sides of any argument not just one side. Resist the urge to be manipulated by someone who plays on your emotions and manipulates them and tells you what you want to hear.

Be my guest question everything I say. Debate. Come and get it. I would hope you understand why I spit at people who smeer holocaust survivors or any other such peoples. It's cheap. It's gutter.

When Jews like me criticize other Jews we do so with respect. Why? Because if what I say encourages anti-semitism what does that make me. Think about that Kuzadd.

All minorities when we debate each other must do so openly and with honesty but we have to show an example of honest criticism that does not turn us into ridiculous simplistic stereotypes.

No this Jew is not afraid of criticism by other Jews or the public at large but no I will not have anyone tell me Finklestein is the role model for how we Jews will discuss each other.

Thanks very much.

To me self-loathing dialogue belongs in the psycho-analyst's office either that or in front of the mirror in the bathroom with the door shut so no one has to hear you popping your pimples and cussing.

Edited by Rue
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first of all rue, I don't give a crap about your response to buffy.

period.

you called me a "finkelstein groupie", I don't even know what you said to her, nor do I care!

You labelled me , in a derogatory manner, to smear me, in doing that.

Yet, you have no knowledge, proof or the slightest inkling wether I am one or not!

which is why I pointed out you are a generalizer of the worst order.

and fyi, I have never read a finkelstein book nor attended a lecture.

You are also a hypocrite IMO, because, you use the term "self-hating jew" which is nonsense and is another generalisation.

I don't know any "self-hating" Italians, and was just recently sitting in a hall full of them, and know literally hundreds and hundreds of them.

I find that term is unique to Jewish people, that persons, who support Israel in all her madness , use to attack other Jews who do not! Not limited to Finkelstein, I have also heard it applied to Noam Chomsky.

. That some people (jewish) would label one another in such a manner is truly despicable. All you do is cause division, hatred and antagonism towards one another, hardly admirable goal to strive for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-loathing

Accusations of self-hatred are often used as an ad hominem attack.

It's come about recently, particularly as Jewsih criticism of Israel's numerous abuses have come to surface.

It's a bullshit term and no one who was even remotely decent would use it.

to be honest rue, and it appears you are incapable. you didn't answer the question until just now.

as for that which I asked, you know dam well it happens, it happens on this forum, and you have been a perpetrator of it yourself on several occasions.

You have cried wolf.

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I don't know any "self-hating" Italians, and was just recently sitting in a hall full of them, and know literally hundreds and hundreds of them.

I find that term is unique to Jewish people, that persons, who support Israel in all her madness , use to attack other Jews who do not! Not limited to Finkelstein, I have also heard it applied to Noam Chomsky.

. That some people (jewish) would label one another in such a manner is truly despicable. All you do is cause division, hatred and antagonism towards one another, hardly admirable goal to strive for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-loathing

Accusations of self-hatred are often used as an ad hominem attack.

It's come about recently, particularly as Jewsih criticism of Israel's numerous abuses have come to surface.

It's a bullshit term and no one who was even remotely decent would

Kuzadd, I am going to try to keep my response to you more civil than your last post.

Jews are about 1.9% of the population of Canada, and of the United States. They are about 0.2% of the world population. The population of Israel is about 7 million, and they are surrounded by far more populous Arab countries and the next concentric ring of countries, also Arab and/or Persian, is wealthy.

The Jews take plenty of potshots and worse from opponents. Having Quislings in their ranks is extremely damaging, given the Jews' low population vis a vis the world, and the hostility of many of their opponents.

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Kuzadd, I am going to try to keep my response to you more civil than your last post.

Jews are about 1.9% of the population of Canada, and of the United States. They are about 0.2% of the world population. The population of Israel is about 7 million, and they are surrounded by far more populous Arab countries and the next concentric ring of countries, also Arab and/or Persian, is wealthy.

The Jews take plenty of potshots and worse from opponents. Having Quislings in their ranks is extremely damaging, given the Jews' low population vis a vis the world, and the hostility of many of their opponents.

My post was as civil as rue's behaviour required it to be.

Having Quislings in their ranks is extremely damaging,

traitors?, so people who criticize Israel especially other Jews, are traitors?? to whom?

to what?

this is a ridiculous aspersion.

What you are advocating is some form of oppression or suppression of diversity of opinion , this from someone who allegedly supports free speech??

Supporting and adhering to ad hominem attacks to squelch criticism through the manipulative use of derogatory terms, is despicable, no matter how one justifies the need for it.

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My post was as civil as rue's behaviour required it to be.

traitors?, so people who criticize Israel especially other Jews, are traitors?? to whom?

to what?

**************

Supporting and adhering to ad hominem attacks to squelch criticism through the manipulative use of derogatory terms, is despicable, no matter how one justifies the need for it.

Criticism is not treason; support Hamas is.
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I now respond Kuzzad;

You stated, "first of all rue, I don't give a crap about your response to buffy.

period." I responded to all your questions when I responded to Buffy. If you do not want to read them good for you.

You stated; "you called me a "finkelstein groupie", I don't even know what you said to her, nor do I care! You labelled me , in a derogatory manner, to smear me, in doing that."

Calling you a Finklestein groupie is not derogatory. You are assuming it is. If you agree with him, then its not derogatory its simply me saying you agree with him. Certainly you jumped on his bandwagon and defended his negative general stereotype he uses to state that when people like me accuse someone of being anti-semitic when they discuss Israel, we do it in regards to ANY comment negative about Israel. That was the point. when Finklstein raises that argument he engages in a negative stereotype. Some of us Kuzadd do not call people anti-semites simply because they criticize Israel as he suggests and you indicated you agree with. You want to agree with someone who makes subjective negative generalizations that are deliberately general to smeer as many Jews as possible, yes I will debate you. As for your sudden shock and awe and feeling insulted, I send you a big Zionist kiss.

"Yet, you have no knowledge, proof or the slightest inkling wether I am one or not!

which is why I pointed out you are a generalizer of the worst order."

No read the context in which I raised my response to you. It was clearly in response to your support of his negative generalization about how anti-semitism is used as a catch-all to accuse people who are anti-Israeli. Kuzadd my responses are as to what you print nothing else.

You stated; "and fyi, I have never read a finkelstein book nor attended a lecture."

Maybe then you should instead of defending something he said if you don't know its full context. That is probably why you and I by the way are even having this debate. The context for his statement about using anti-semitic accusations as a catch 22 against people who are anti-Zionist would be better understood if you understand the continuing context from which such comments flow.

You stated; "You are also a hypocrite IMO, because, you use the term "self-hating jew" which is nonsense and is another generalisation."

Of course not. People who are ashamed of their heritage, or nationality, or ethnicity, or race, gender, sexual preference, body size, age, looks, etc., are a dime a dozen. Ecveryone of us has a part of ourselves we do not like and that disliking can cause us to engage in self-defeating or negative of self-destructive behaviour. We've all had those days.

In the context of visible minorities or specific minorities or specific groups that are not mainstream, the concept of self-loathing minority is nothing profound. There are thousands of essays on it. Black people, Quebecois, Gays, women, Jews, all kinds of groups refer to it in art, music, literature, psychological essays, etc. I am not sure why you would want to deny it. I mean to deny it would suggest everyone has perfect self-esteem and minorities have never been influenced by the dominant culture into hating themselves or characteristics of themselves.

" I don't know any "self-hating" Italians, and was just recently sitting in a hall full of them, and know literally hundreds and hundreds of them."

I don't believe you. My personal reaction to the above comment is you are being pat, i.e., arguing for the sake of arguing. More to the point, even if you don't know one Italian who has felt uncomfortable with their Italian heritage and engaged in derogatory comments about their heritage which I doubt, it doesn't mean they don't exist. Next you will tell me you don't know any Italian comedians. O.k.

"I find that term is unique to Jewish people...."

The above is a subjective self-serving statement. Of course you find it unique. You have decided it was unique because you deny it exists and now try suggest I coined it. Your responses are now getting a bit absurd. The fact that you now think only I coined it or only Jews use the term in itself is a ridiculous stereotype. Think. Anytime any of us suggest a trait only exists with one group of people what does that establish or prove other then you being selective in your consideration process...you walked into that one...

You stated, "that persons, who support Israel in all her madness...."

Again you reflect a bias that generalizes and slurs all Israelis that I debate strongly. You have suggested a nation is mad. That is a deliberate smeer of an entire nation. For someone who lectures me on generalizations you aren't being very consistent and its precisely why I pick apart your comments, specifically, not generally.

You stated.. "I have also heard it (self-loathing Jew applied to Noam Chomsky).

Of course you have. He engages in the exact same kind of arguements and comments Finklstein does. He is Finklestein's mentor. There are many many self-loathing Jews who actually retain their U.S. citizenship, have moved to Israel, do not work, live off the state, and spend their days on the internet claiming to be anti-Zionist and calling on Israel to be terminated. Its not an uncommon phenomena even in Israel.

We Jews are and have always been very open in hating ourselves and carrying out this self-loathing in public. There are numerous essays, papers and articles that discuss it and why it flows from out culture. Whether you with to read them or not is your business but I can assure you its not unique to Jews. all non dominant groups in dominant societies have this phenomena. It goes to the very state of being non dominant in a dominant society.

"You stated, That some people (jewish) would label one another in such a manner is truly despicable."

Nonsense. I do not buy your feigned horror and righteousness and with due respect I think the last comment is playing me. What is dispicable Kuzadd is any human but particularly the son of a holocaust survivor engaging in deliberate commentary that he knows will be used to smeer all holocaust survivors and stain their memory. That is what makes it dispicable. Its dispicable because Finklestein uses his mother's holocaust status to hide behind to justify his hateful comments. He continually states since his mother is a holocaust survivor he can be as anti-semitic and rude to holocaust survivors and Jews as he feels. That is petulance and its odious petulance so save your cries of indignation for Finklstein's exploitation of the holocaust for his own political agenda-and I repeat again he is a self-loathing Jew and a self-loathing human.

You stated; "All you do is causedivision, hatred and antagonism towards one another, hardly admirable goal to strive for."

If you mean I want to challenge Finklstein as a hate monger and challenge Buffy for jumping on his band wagon and preaching his virtues yes. I think he is poison. I think his words are intended to incite hatred. He actually admits this openly. If you suggest I challenge anyone who engages in negative generalizations of an entire people and in so doing assigns them negative characteristics and motives and if you suggest I challenge someone who poses subjective opinions as facts-then yes, I am deliberately in that context inciting hatred and antagonism towards what they are doing and have never made a secret about it.

You also stated accusations of self-hatred are often used as an ad homminem attack. They might be but in my responses I have been very specific as to why I think they apply to Finklstein and have taken great care to try explain why to you and Buffy.

You stated;"It's come about recently, particularly as Jewsih criticism of Israel's numerous abuses have come to surface."

No Kuzadd. Your above comment is an example of a negative generalization that assumes and assigns motives to me or anyone else who criticizes Jews who criticize Israel's "numerous" abuses. Your assumptions and generalizations given what I have read in your comments in my opinion come about because you do not understand the Jewish psyche and jewish culture but assume you do and more importantly are trying to assume you know what the criticism is about and its all the same.

Kuzadd when people like I and many others criticize Finklstein, we criticize him the exact same way and the exact same reason we criticize any bigot or hate monger. His being Jewish is not the issue as you make it to be-his being an anti-semite and engaging in slurs of all Jews when he debates Israel's existence is.

Plenty of us Jews and non Jews criticize Israeli policies. Its been going on for thousands of years. You really think it only ame up with Finkelstein? Come on. Get real.

You stated, "It's a bullshit term and no one who was even remotely decent would use it."

It is not a bullshit term for most of us Jews it is a poignant term and concern and your suggesting I am indecent for using it is a tad melodramatic if nothing else but if you insist pull out the kerchief and fan your face.

You stated, "to be honest rue, and it appears you are incapable. you didn't answer the question until just now."

Kuzadd all anyone has to do is read back the posts I have written. Lol there is no shortage of them as to my responses to the issue of anti-semitism and its contextualized reference to citicisms of Israel.

I say it again for what is it now with you, at least the 10th time I can think of, if you want to criticize Israel be my guest. Engage in smeers about all Jews, assign negative characteristics to all Jews, engage in references that incite hatred and resentment against all Jews whether you raise it in the context of Israel or any other discussion, I will challenge you as being anti-semitic. Engage in the same tactic but only against those who support Israel I will challenge you equally but call you anti-Zionist. Engage in the same comments about all Israelis, I will call you anti-Israeli. Do it in regards to Muslims, I will call you anti-Muslim. Do it against gays, I will call you a homophobe. Do it against all women, I will call you a mysoginist, etc.

You stated; "as for that which I asked, you know dam well it happens, it happens on this forum, and you have been a perpetrator of it yourself on several occasions."

Kuzadd you make a lot of accusations and yet you have not provided any words from me from any of my posts to back up the above or any other one of your allegations that I engage in negative generalizations about an entire group of people. Your silence to such accusations only speaks to your lack of credibility.

You want to reproduce a statement I made accusing someone of being anti-semtiic simply because they criticized Israel, then produce it, or with due respect, stop it. That Kuzadd is crying wolf. accusing someone of something and then being unable to prove it.

Kuzadd you stated. "You have cried wolf." Look at your accusations you have presented against me. Until you prove them with actual words I stated, Kuzadd, just who is crying wolf.

I admit Kuzadd I have said a lot of things but crying wolf? Lol. You are the first person insane enough to suggest I don't belabour any point I make. Hah I like that.

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Norman is NOT an Israeli citizen - therefore jbg NO treason honey.

He is a Jew and Judaism is a "quasi-nation". He is unfaithful to his people.

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Norman is NOT an Israeli citizen - therefore jbg NO treason honey.

I detest everything he states and stands for and find he is a danger to Jewish people but I am not sure if I would call him treasonous.

In a free world, he's entitled to his opinions and I do not doubt in his mind any Jew who is a Zionist to him is treasonous to Judaism.

I would prefer to simply state he is a man who disseminates hatred towards all Jews through his own self-loathing. His words hurt all Jews not just Zionist Jews and they are designed to do just that.

The day Finklestein lowered himself past the point of any remaining decency was when he began to taunt and insult Eli Weisel.

His words were pure poison and manifested a toxic psychopathology.

Edited by Rue
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I detest everything he states and stands for and find he is a danger to Jewish people but I am not sure if I would call him treasonous.

In a free world, he's entitled to his opinions and I do not doubt in his mind any Jew who is a Zionist to him is treasonous to Judaism.

I would defend to my death his right to utter his poisonous statements. That does not give him the right to travel to a sovereign country that does not wish to have him. He can utter his BS from the US.

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The day Finklestein lowered himself past the point of any remaining decency was when he began to taunt and insult Eli Weisel.

His words were pure poison and manifested a toxic psychopathology.

You mean that Norman pointed out that 'night' was not an actual factual account? That he pointed out the fraudulent marketing of these 'stories'? Is that what you are refering to?

Hey Rue - I asked before - what of Joan Peters?

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I admit Kuzadd I have said a lot of things but crying wolf? Lol. You are the first person insane enough to suggest I don't belabour any point I make. Hah I like that.

rue, I find you to be so long winded, lots of words all saying mostly nothing!

Calling you a Finklestein groupie is not derogatory. You are assuming it is. If you agree with him, then its not derogatory its simply me saying you agree with him. Certainly you jumped on his bandwagon and defended his negative general stereotype he uses to state that when people like me accuse someone of being anti-semitic when they discuss Israel, we do it in regards to ANY comment negative about Israel.

sure it is, and that was your intention despite you baloney!

You made it clear you loathe the man and all his alleged teachings a followers, hence it was obvious you were smearing me!

I asked you one question wrt one statement you made, one question, one statement!

I am not rehashing as, I can't bear another long winded nonsensical response filled with generalisations again!

You want to reproduce a statement I made accusing someone of being anti-semtiic simply because they criticized Israel, then produce it, or with due respect, stop it. That Kuzadd is crying wolf. accusing someone of something and then being unable to prove it.

Yup, when I pointed out to you Israel targets civilians intentionally, as all other occupiers do and have done, as the US is doing in Iraq, has done in Japan and Germany, Korea and Vietnam, you called me an anti-semite immediately!

boo-hoo rue, the truth hurts, but under the occupation, that stats bear it out, the IDF has targetted civilians, journalists, kids, etc., always using the excuse, their are terroriest amongst them.

Wait, where have I heard that before? Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, and on and on.

It's a PR game, ya know, Public Relations, so people like yourself, can feel ok, with the continuing slaughter of people as the occupation wears on.

NO one admits to it, it's not policy, but, it's done all the time, by every occupying force, but they are always so sorry for it, as they try to do everything to avoid loss of life, blah, blah blah.

Honestly Rue, I have wasted enough time, on you, and these inane posts of yours, if you wish to use ad-hominem attacks against your own people and others , feel free, as for me, I will continue to discount you as a serious thinking person, because people who resort to ad-hominem attackst , have to be dismissed immediately in my book.

Sorry Rue, I know, not one self-hating Italian, not one!

Of the hundreds that I do know, and know well, not one would call themselves that and not one would call another one that.

You don't believe it? why would I care?

Your as fooled as they come, fooled into attacking people of different opinions, conditioned into silencing critics.

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one thing I forgot, wrt IDF attacking civilians intentionally.

What did you think all the cluster bombs in Lebanon were about?

You know all the ones that were left behind upon withdrawal?

Cluster bombs are , I am certain blowing legs of civilians in Lebanons, mostly kids, today and beyond.

It was intentional targetting of civilians. Not an accident. They left them everywhere and in the last three days of their attack.

"Bomb disposal experts are working around the clock to clear the lethal leftovers after Israel fired 1.2 million bomblets in the last three days of the war."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/am...ael-416719.html

I know, I know, they didn't mean it, it was an accident.

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I would defend to my death his right to utter his poisonous statements. That does not give him the right to travel to a sovereign country that does not wish to have him. He can utter his BS from the US.

He has no automatic right to enter Israel. He is not a citizen of that country. In my opinion he was a security risk because of the potential incitement his words could cause.

Do I think the Israeli government was politically motivated in removing him. Of course. Kind of obvious.

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yes and kind of not a big deal at all.

meanwhile, a palestinian crane operator goes wild in the streets of Jerusalem killing and maiming lots of Jews and kuzadd and buffy are no where to be seen.

Odd ain't it?

:)

I just wish they could be courageous anti-semites.

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More love poems between Kuzadd and moi;

Kuzadd you stated;

"You made it clear you loathe the man and all his alleged teachings a followers, hence it was obvious you were smearing me!"

You are being a tad paranoid. I was challenging your favaourable opinions of Finklestein.

You stated;

"I can't bear another long winded nonsensical response filled with generalisations again!"

You asked me a question, I have you a specific answer.

You stated;

"Yup, when I pointed out to you Israel targets civilians intentionally, as all other occupiers do and have done, as the US is doing in Iraq, has done in Japan and Germany, Korea and Vietnam, you called me an anti-semite immediately!"

Again Kuzadd you have made an allegation that is fabricated. Produce the words where you stated the above and I responded accordingly. I think this is the 4th or 5th time you have made an allegation and when I have asked you to provide the words, you have remained silent. Kind of makes you look silly Kuzadd don't you think?

One of the reasons I place your comments in quotation marks, is so you can see I do not fabricate them.

You stated;

"... if you wish to use ad-hominem attacks against your own people and others , feel free, as for me, I will continue to discount you as a serious thinking person, because people who resort to ad-hominem attackst , have to be dismissed immediately in my book..."

Kuzadd read back your responses. You have made numerous allegations as to what you claim I stated let alone what you claim to have stated, and when I have asked you to provide the words, you have refused. That in fact means when you make such comments and can't substantiate them, you not I are engaging in the alleged "ad-hominem" (sic) exercise you accuse me of.

Kuzadd you have pronounced views about Israel and so embrace someone who you think expresses the same opinions you do. I have challenged Finklestein's words and your support for them. That is what people do on this forum-debate opinions. Since Finklstein's remarks are often highly personal and do not represent political opinions but in fact express negative subjective generalizations as to an identified group's personal characteristics and does not debate their opinions-it deserves in my opinion strong condemnation for doing just that. If you want to take this personally then feel free to do so I can't stop you.

You stated;

"Your as fooled as they come, fooled into attacking people of different opinions, conditioned into silencing critics."

Lol. Me a fool? Never heard that one before. What was that about "ad hominem" (sic) attacks. Woopsy you slipped again Kuzadd. Do as you say not as you do right? Lol.

Again I think you are being a tad melodramatic when you state I have been conditioned into silencing critics. Again sorry to burst any theories of yours but I haven't been brainwashed by the Zionist cabal or Mossad or Billy Crystal or Adam Sandler or any Hollywood produces, bankers, or other such sinister forces.

The only thing I know for sure that I am conditioned to do is need to pee when I drink coffee or beer or hold my stomach in when a young woman walks by. That and saying "you are right I am a fool" to my wife or daughters or cats.

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Kuzadd you stated;

"one thing I forgot, wrt IDF attacking civilians intentionally. What did you think all the cluster bombs in Lebanon were about?"

You also forgot that Hezbollah was using cluster bombs during that same war.

In fact in the Middle East, Algeria during its civilian war between 1993 and 1998, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Iraq, and Iran have used cluster bombs. In fact the US, China, Russia, India, Pakistan have also used them. In fact there are so many nations that have them in their arsenal it makes it imperative we try convince all nations to give them up.

But of course in your world, we simply select out the actual context of who uses them and where and infer its only used by one nation in isolation because that nation is full of demons right?

Cluster bombs are just dead wrong whoever uses them if that was your point. If your point was to be selective and exploit that obvious point for your specific Israel is poo thesis, that is obvious too.

Regards,

Rue,

22nd Counter Poo Unit,

Conditioned Zionist Zombie Squadron

Cabal Cell 2267

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yes and kind of not a big deal at all.

meanwhile, a palestinian crane operator goes wild in the streets of Jerusalem killing and maiming lots of Jews and kuzadd and buffy are no where to be seen.

Odd ain't it?

:)

I just wish they could be courageous anti-semites.

Selective and subjective absolutely. Do I think either is an anti-semite lol, I honestly do not think they are although I find specific remarks they may make at times anti-semitic. I think they are genuinely motivated by what they think are clear black and white beliefs as to what is right and wrong and are so convinced of their being morally right they just can not imagine they end up engaging in the very exercises they claim to accuse Israel of. Kind of ironic.

Now as for me, I am but a Zionist fool conditioned into eating Montreal bagels or dreaming about Sarah Silverman and me doing the Hora.

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Selective and subjective absolutely. Do I think either is an anti-semite lol, I honestly do not think they are although I find specific remarks they may make at times anti-semitic. I think they are genuinely motivated by what they think are clear black and white beliefs as to what is right and wrong and are so convinced of their being morally right they just can not imagine they end up engaging in the very exercises they claim to accuse Israel of. Kind of ironic.

Now as for me, I am but a Zionist fool conditioned into eating Montreal bagels or dreaming about Sarah Silverman and me doing the Hora.

Or it could be something as simple as no longer spending much time here at all!

by checking the last dates I posted, until today.

but never overlook the obvious.

This is really a boring place for the most part, redundant, repetetive, same old same old, liberals vs conservatives, use of tin foil hat, left/right and more of the same. Of course, there is alway white doors/sharkmans stupid and pointless accusations and rues inability to answer even one question queried of him.

all in all, if one pays attention to trends, my visits here, have dropped of substantially, there are much better and more enjoyable things to attend to.

"I think they are genuinely motivated by what they think are clear black and white beliefs as to what is right and wrong and are so convinced of their being morally right"

for goodness sake rue, don't ever put me in your simple little camp, I think I have said on this forum repeatedly nothing is ever black and white, there are so many shades of grey in between the two extremes, but then when one never reads what is actually written, nor actually answers any specific questions, what can be expected???

oh and wrt cluster bombs, did I ever say Israel was the only country using them?

No I did not, but then why bother, you are incapable of reading what is written?

ta ta

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Or it could be something as simple as no longer spending much time here at all!

by checking the last dates I posted, until today.

but never overlook the obvious.

This is really a boring place for the most part, redundant, repetetive, same old same old, liberals vs conservatives, use of tin foil hat, left/right and more of the same. Of course, there is alway white doors/sharkmans stupid and pointless accusations and rues inability to answer even one question queried of him.

all in all, if one pays attention to trends, my visits here, have dropped of substantially, there are much better and more enjoyable things to attend to.

for goodness sake rue, don't ever put me in your simple little camp, I think I have said on this forum repeatedly nothing is ever black and white, there are so many shades of grey in between the two extremes, but then when one never reads what is actually written, nor actually answers any specific questions, what can be expected???

oh and wrt cluster bombs, did I ever say Israel was the only country using them?

No I did not, but then why bother, you are incapable of reading what is written?

ta ta

Again no prunes in your diet? I haven't put you in any camp and I made it clear what I was saying was my take on your position about Israel in general not anything specific.

If I have any specific worrds or comments you have stated I wish to challenge I will quote them and make specific reference to them.

By the way when it comes to Israel I have never read anything from you that in my opinion would indicate you are capable of looking at both sides of the dispute.

With due respect for me, you and Buffy are one trick ponies when it comes to your positions on Israel and for me they are what you would call boring and predictable.

Of course you find me to be a Zionist running dog so why the knickers all twisted?

Not good for your colon.

Figs and dates from Israel are awesome. They should do the trick.

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He is a Jew and Judaism is a "quasi-nation". He is unfaithful to his people.

Not so sure whether she wants to get it. She has made it clear in her past remarks that the notion of a Jew being a shared collective entity other then one based on religious beliefs doesn't factor into her equation of us.

I think what sets me off with him is is I have heard him snicker and brag in interviews about how he knows what he says hurts Jews and he says things deliberately knowing they will hurt Jews and then has laughed out loud about the hurt and pain he says he causes.

I hope when he dies the first vision he must deal with is Anne Frank then Joseph Mengele then his own soul forced to walk to the room where he is stripped and "fumigated" and forced to experience that which he spits at.

The closest thought I have to expressing what I feel about him is this story. When I was a kid my father would take me and my brother to a veteran's hospital so we could see the world war one and two veterans. He used to do that to explain why he would always get angry when someone who had not fought in war talked about it.

He said it was the silence of the vets that would teach us about war. He said there was a reason for that silence and until someone learns to respect that silence, they will never ever understand war.

I mean my father was always an angry guy for surviving the war but the only time I really saw him truly angry is if he thought someone was talking about a war they never experienced.

Years later if I run into a vet I know to keep my mouth shut and respect the silence. If they speak I listen but I know better then to initiate any conversation and pierce their silence. Likewise with holocaust survivors or people that came from other nightmares, I learned to respect their silence-listen if told, but otherwise shut up and understand the message of the silence....its not the words...but the silence between the words.

So I just can't understand how a man like Finklstein deliberately makes noise to drown out the silenceand in so doing defecates on another soul's darkest moments and the suffering those moments have etched into them.

I just can't fathom it.

There are things that happened to members of my family and others I would never speak of. No words can explain it. Only silence can and yet this wretch screams and makes noise to prevent the dignity of the silence.

Bah.

I believe there is a time and place for us all and this time and place is called the consequences of our free choice.

Finklestein will come upon it sooner then he thinks.

Edited by Rue
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The closest thought I have to expressing what I feel about him is this story. When I was a kid my father would take me and my brother to a veteran's hospital so we could see the world war one and two veterans. He used to do that to explain why he would always get angry when someone who had not fought in war talked about it.

He said it was the silence of the vets that would teach us about war. He said there was a reason for that silence and until someone learns to respect that silence, they will never ever understand war.

Rue, truly eloquent.

I may not agree with everything here but how can I quibble. It is powerfully written and sincere. What more can I say.

Jim

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Rue, truly eloquent.

I may not agree with everything here but how can I quibble. It is powerfully written and sincere. What more can I say.

Jim

Thanks. He really gets by goat J as you can tell. The last person that truly pissed me off as much as Finklestein during that interview was Paul Bernardo saying he is no longer a killer and psychopath or Karla Hamolka's crying interview before they released her. The Adam and Eve of Canada. One remains locked up. The other is in the West Indies living a free life and reproducing.

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Thanks. He really gets by goat J as you can tell. The last person that truly pissed me off as much as Finklestein during that interview was Paul Bernardo saying he is no longer a killer and psychopath or Karla Hamolka's crying interview before they released her. The Adam and Eve of Canada. One remains locked up. The other is in the West Indies living a free life and reproducing.

I hope Karla's better to the new kids then she was to her sister.

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