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Israel attack on Iran "unavoidable"


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Do you not see the difference of position between France and Israel? France affirms that it will retaliate to any attacks against French interest. Israel is threatening a preemptive attack. What constitute preemptive? Is it Pearl Harbour style, Caroline affair of 1837, or Osirak reactor?

Your denial of the President of Iran's multiple speeches and comments that clearly all on the destruction of and end of Israel is one thing.Most people ignored you on that. Playing dumb is what some people do when they come on this post. They figure they are smarter then everyone else. Right, the entire world did not hear the remarks of the President of Iran over and over again. Its a translation error that's all. Right. Just like the holocaust did not happen. Translation errors. Innocent misunderstandings. The man is harmless.

Now not happy with the fact no one challenged you on the its a mistranslation bit, you now come back and pretend you had no idea what Chirac said then go woopsy and admit it and now provide yet more disingenuine comment that its different.

Do you really think France, or Russia, or China or ANY OTHER F>>>CKING nation on this planet would sit around and wait to be nuked before it retaliated?

Are you serious or do you like this role of playing the fool with people?

Enough with the smarmy double talk o.k. Either be direct and sincere or give it a rest.

Here is the point.

Iran funds Hezbollah and Hamas and hundreds of other terror groups that believe Israel should be taken off the map with Jordan and replaced with a theocractic stateThat is Iran's agenda. A muslim theocractic state in Jordan and Isral friendly to its interests and the funding of terror groups de destabilize Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and Iraq.

Unlike you Iran does not hide its foreign policy intentions. It is up front and blatant about them.

If the President of Iran is guilty of anything its the simple fact he says exactly what he believes.

Would Iran ever nuke Israel? Some of us believe they would not risk killing so many Muslims and its mostly bluff. Some believe he is deadly serious and would use a lower grade nuclear bomb.

Me personally I think the nuke talk is all b.s. The fact is today, one man with a dirty bomb could walk into Jerusalem and detonate it and wipe out millions with the radioactive fall out without taking down most of the infrastructure. For that matter Syria or Iran couldlobby in a missile today that dumps germs.

There are plenty of ways to kill people without a nuclear bomb taking out the Muslim holy site in Jerusalem and killing millions of Muslims from the fall out.

I would suspect the Iran hype comes from 2 sources. One is the fact that Israel is in pre-election mode with its politicians all preparing to make a run at the PM's seat and trying to sound tough to get votes.

I also suspect there is a direct tie in with the bellicose tones and support for McCain from the people making the noise.

Its no secret right now Likud and those most sympathetic to the Bush doctrine in the Middle East want McCain continuing as is while Obama is seen as someone who would really shake things up and probably will pull out the Americans from Iraq and refrain from the bellicose adversarial approach in the Middle East.

How much of this is Israeli internal pre-election noise and how much of it is American pre-election noise? I would say most of it.

There is one thorny issue. If Israel did take out a nuclear reactor in Iraq they have to avoid disrupting China's gas pipelines. If they blow up China's gas pipelines and set China into an economic crisis over natural gas and oil the entire world market is going to quickly implode.

Its a different world then with Syria where such a nation like Syria is an isolated speck on the map in terms of world economic consequence. Blow things up in Iran and right away you directly involve China's economy totally dependent on Iran for oil and gas.

Some people think Israel will orchestrate an attack to help McCain get elected.

I would suspect most of the speculation you see on this thread including your feigned ignorance just that, simply people speculating and making up theories.

None of us really knows and will know.

And no there was no translation error in what I just said.

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Any strike would most likely come from Israel, but the question raised in the link is, can Israel effectively take out so many targets (Iran presently has several) which are so far away. Iraq and Syria's strikes were child's play compared to this.

The ramifications to such a strike could be quite unpleasant, however. Iran could declare war on Israel with several Arab neighbors joining in. You know missiles would start raining down in Israel with Israel responding with more air strikes, but would it lead to an actual invasion on Israeli soil? Would the US jump in with Israel on this one?

Israel will have abundant behind-the-scenes assistance from the US, and perhaps acknowledged assistance. Iran's leadership (Ahamenejad is a figurehead for the mullahs) has made it plane that they have dangerous designs on the world. The choices are not great, but I believe an attack is indeed unavoidable.
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Do you not see the difference of position between France and Israel? France affirms that it will retaliate to any attacks against French interest. Israel is threatening a preemptive attack. What constitute preemptive? Is it Pearl Harbour style, Caroline affair of 1837, or Osirak reactor?
Israel has no choice but to strike pre-emptively. It's first wartime loss will also be its last.
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IF Israel does strike then get ready for the end of the Middle-East as we know it because there won't be nothing left after the nukes go off! Russia and China have already said they will strike back whoever does harm to Iran. Plus, tit will put all the NATO forces in danger of being killed along with the millions of people that live in that area. There are other ways to handle Iran and bombing is not one of them and if you think the price of oil is high now, if this happens you'd be lucky to find gas.

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To say that there is no choice is to create a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you are Iran, and Israel says it has no choice other than to attack you, than are you not likely to start acting in a more materially hostile fashion that will seem to vindicate the Israeli decision, even though it was they that may have caused the new behaviour?

I think that Rue's observation about the election cycle is interesting, but either way the statement in question was a strategic blunder, one that can perhaps not be afforded.

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Your denial of the President of Iran's multiple speeches and comments that clearly all on the destruction of and end of Israel is one thing.Most people ignored you on that. Playing dumb is what some people do when they come on this post. They figure they are smarter then everyone else. Right, the entire world did not hear the remarks of the President of Iran over and over again. Its a translation error that's all. Right. Just like the holocaust did not happen. Translation errors. Innocent misunderstandings. The man is harmless.

No, this man is not harmless.

His threats against Israel are nothing more than outright antagonism designed to HOPEFULLY induce an attack by the U.S.

The president of Iran is no fool and the Israel threats are a diversion behind his strategy to get back at the U.S. for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan using oil as a weapon.

The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries itself is split about what to do. Saudi Arabia, supported by Kuwait, plans to pump more to blunt a price it says is too high. Iran, Venezuela and Libya have said there's sufficient supply in oil markets and the causes of rising prices are elsewhere.

``America is responsible,'' Libyan leader Colonel Muammar al-Qaddafi said in a speech in Tripoli on June 12. ``The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the threats, that's what's pushing oil prices up.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...CY&refer=uk

Call it an Middle East conspiracy.

Edited by Leafless
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I don't care if Iran is a threat or not. The US is definitely a threat to Iran...since 1979! :lol:

Don't confuse "intelligence failures" with foreign policy objectives. Fooling you is the least of American concerns.

The thing is, it is your neighbours they are fooling not me.. I am just a Canadian. It is not really me I am concerned about. It is you. Yes I know you don't care, that much is apparent. But again, your intelligence failures are the reasons why the public thinks the US is in Iraq. It is those people that are the fools.

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The thing is, it is your neighbours they are fooling not me.. I am just a Canadian. It is not really me I am concerned about. It is you. Yes I know you don't care, that much is apparent. But again, your intelligence failures are the reasons why the public thinks the US is in Iraq. It is those people that are the fools.

Nonsense.....the US was hell bent on toppling Saddam one way or another since 1991. How can your ilk blame America for intel failures while concurrently claiming that America had "receipts" for selling the chemical weapons in the first place?

Stop whining and realize what is happening (and will happen) on an economic and political level. There will be winners and losers on all sides, just as there have always been. Do you think the dogs of war are going to pause just to keep you happy (in Canada)?

But we do agree on one thing....some people are "fools" ! :lol:

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Nonsense.....the US was hell bent on toppling Saddam one way or another since 1991. How can your ilk blame America for intel failures while concurrently claiming that America had "receipts" for selling the chemical weapons in the first place?

Because the US simply did not want it known that they played a part in the gassing of the Kurds. So the intelligence (buying yellowcake from Africa) was just a sidetrack to throw people off the real trail of evidence. The intelligence was presented to dupe an ignorant population to support the fallacy of the war on terror. But you don't have a problem with this. Yes we know it was on the agenda as US policy. And you make that quite apparent. You also say that more deception should have occured to support the end means of invading and permanently occupying the Middle East. But you never say that it was wrong to lie to the population to get them to support A, when in fact B was the actual plan all along. This is the thing you obviously have failed to understand.

This would never fly in a corporate environment, so why should we tolerate it on a governmental level?

Ignorant people don't read between the lines to get the full story. If this was the case, the war on terror would have never been supported. Because the fallacy of it all would have been laid out in plain sight for everyone to see.

Are you calling me a fool? Because for the most part I agree with you, but that does not make the situation right. If you think that does make it right .. then you are among the fools.

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Because the US simply did not want it known that they played a part in the gassing of the Kurds. So the intelligence (buying yellowcake from Africa) was just a sidetrack to throw people off the real trail of evidence. The intelligence was presented to dupe an ignorant population to support the fallacy of the war on terror.

You are the one who is ignorant....there were plenty of Americans who doubted the "intelligence". Starting with Scott Ritter. The so called "war on terror" is not a fallacy, but standing American (and NATO) policy. Fine if you don't like that, but also fine that you can't do anything about it....including Canada's contribution in bombing and strangling Iraq.

But you don't have a problem with this. Yes we know it was on the agenda as US policy. And you make that quite apparent. You also say that more deception should have occured to support the end means of invading and permanently occupying the Middle East. But you never say that it was wrong to lie to the population to get them to support A, when in fact B was the actual plan all along. This is the thing you obviously have failed to understand.

This doesn't even make any sense. Why the hell would I care about a "lie" for A or B? Hell man....we "lied" about Operation Overlord too!

This would never fly in a corporate environment, so why should we tolerate it on a governmental level?

Corporations don't "lie" ???....you are truly naive.

Ignorant people don't read between the lines to get the full story. If this was the case, the war on terror would have never been supported. Because the fallacy of it all would have been laid out in plain sight for everyone to see.

Errr...excuse me...but did you know there are Canadian Forces slaying the locals in Afghanistan. Perhaps you read about it in the news. So now everyone is "ignorant" except you? Why do you think your position is so "morally" superior...and more importantly, why does that even matter?

Are you calling me a fool? Because for the most part I agree with you, but that does not make the situation right. If you think that does make it right .. then you are among the fools.

Not only are you a fool, but you are quite satisfied to live and thrive on the very mountain of "evil" political and economic power that you criticise. How do you reconcile this (cognitive dissonance) ?? Does it eat your non-lying, morally superior guts out??

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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I don't think the attack is "unavoidable" . There are several things would avoid Israel Air Force attacking Iran.

First, there are some technical problems. Israel pilots needs to fly at least 1,500km to reach the target even if they take a straight way, that means they have to fly across Jordan and Iraq territory, and after they accomplish their mission, they have to fly another 1,500km to come back Israel. That means their F-16 fighters have to aerial-refuel by several lumpy tanker planes in Jordan or Iraq airspace. It sounds very dangerdous. And unlike Iraq and Syria, Iran's nuclear facilities site in several different areas, so Israel can not distroy them by only one strike. If they really want to eliminate Iran's nuclear ability, they need a operation like the NATO's airstrike in Yugoslavia and correct intelligence.

Second, If Israel attacts Iran, Iran will incite those Iraqi muslim who loyal to them, it seems most Iraqi muslim are pro-Iran, to rebelled America for they let Israeli fighter jets fly over Iraq airspace. So Mr. Bush would stop any attact for he didn't want the casualty would rise again at the moment he was leaving White House thongh he might want Iranian have a impression of the attack would happen for taking advantage in any possible negotiations.

And third, Russia is a neighbour of Iran and they will benefit from the attack if Iran is cornered by America and its ally. And Iran is not a trifle small country which American can total ignore it turning to Russia.

And I don't think Israel really wants airstike Iran. If it wants, it seems needless to let its preparation of attack going into media. Has anyone ever seen the news of the preparations of airstrike on Iraq and Syria from media before they really happened?

Edited by xul
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IF Israel does strike then get ready for the end of the Middle-East as we know it because there won't be nothing left after the nukes go off! Russia and China have already said they will strike back whoever does harm to Iran. Plus, tit will put all the NATO forces in danger of being killed along with the millions of people that live in that area. There are other ways to handle Iran and bombing is not one of them and if you think the price of oil is high now, if this happens you'd be lucky to find gas.

That makes no sense at all! Before the fact bluff and bluster is normal. If Israel did strike at Iranian nuclear bomb making facilities do you really think that Russia and China would trigger a huge war just to protect that nutbar Iranian leader? What would be in it for them? They could be dragged into an escalation that would be far beyond what they would be prepared to pay.

No, it makes much more sense that while they will make lots of noises if the balloon goes up they will condemn Israel with harsh words while secretly heaving a sigh of relief that Iran will no longer be able to threaten the stability of the area.

Unless of course, they are all mindless fanatics who would "push the button" anyway, but that is a view quite contrary to your usual postings. I'd be surprised if you'd make that sort of accusation.

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That makes no sense at all! Before the fact bluff and bluster is normal. If Israel did strike at Iranian nuclear bomb making facilities do you really think that Russia and China would trigger a huge war just to protect that nutbar Iranian leader? What would be in it for them? They could be dragged into an escalation that would be far beyond what they would be prepared to pay.

No, it makes much more sense that while they will make lots of noises if the balloon goes up they will condemn Israel with harsh words while secretly heaving a sigh of relief that Iran will no longer be able to threaten the stability of the area.

Unless of course, they are all mindless fanatics who would "push the button" anyway, but that is a view quite contrary to your usual postings. I'd be surprised if you'd make that sort of accusation.

I hear that a lot from certain quarters: If the US/Israel attacks Iran, it'll trigger a nuclear war with China and Russia...two countries that don't trust each other and have a poor record for cooperation. Shows a certain flair for the dramatic, but I agree with you that neither would lift a finger to save Iran. Both would, as you say, heave a sigh of relief that this provocative country was brought down a notch or two. Neither would risk total atomic destruction over these idiots...that's for sure.

----------------------------------------------------

Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

---George Carlin

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That makes no sense at all! Before the fact bluff and bluster is normal. If Israel did strike at Iranian nuclear bomb making facilities do you really think that Russia and China would trigger a huge war just to protect that nutbar Iranian leader?

Possibly, yes.

Russia, one of the world's major powers, has warned of "disasterous consequences" if Israel attacked Iran's nuclear facilities.

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-new...t-Tehran-attack

Things don't look good.

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That makes no sense at all! Before the fact bluff and bluster is normal. If Israel did strike at Iranian nuclear bomb making facilities do you really think that Russia and China would trigger a huge war just to protect that nutbar Iranian leader?

Possibly, yes.
Is your point, Leafless, that the West should become a visitor or guest in the world, bowing at the knees of far more primitive countries such as Iran, Russia and China. These countries have a lot in common; they are all despotic, and despise and fear the liberal, live and let live West. I am strongly opposed to kow-towing to the primieval and dictatatorial. It's time that the West learn that they have built a lot worth fighting for.

Israel, like the US, must carry a lot of water for countries and peoples grown used to the easy luxury of appeasement.

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IF Israel does strike then get ready for the end of the Middle-East as we know it because there won't be nothing left after the nukes go off! Russia and China have already said they will strike back whoever does harm to Iran. Plus, tit will put all the NATO forces in danger of being killed along with the millions of people that live in that area. There are other ways to handle Iran and bombing is not one of them and if you think the price of oil is high now, if this happens you'd be lucky to find gas.

How are China really going to strike back against Israel ? The both have large armies, but I don't think either is really capable of harming Israel with anything other than nuclear weapons. That is not going to happen

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How are China really going to strike back against Israel ? The both have large armies, but I don't think either is really capable of harming Israel with anything other than nuclear weapons. That is not going to happen

Correct...China can't even figure out Taiwan yet, let alone Israel. Projecting power is easier said than done.

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Possibly, yes.

Is your point, Leafless, that the West should become a visitor or guest in the world, bowing at the knees of far more primitive countries such as Iran, Russia and China. These countries have a lot in common; they are all despotic, and despise and fear the liberal, live and let live West. I am strongly opposed to kow-towing to the primieval and dictatatorial. It's time that the West learn that they have built a lot worth fighting for.

Israel, like the US, must carry a lot of water for countries and peoples grown used to the easy luxury of appeasement.

My point was simply that Iran appears to be pushing for a showdown and that desire could soon become a reality.

I do not care who Iran's allies are and if they feel they wish (especially Russia) to be responsible for the escalation of a potential conflict with Iran is worth it, then so be it.

Israel, like the US, must carry a lot of water for countries and peoples grown used to the easy luxury of appeasement.

Appeasement is a word that has been taken for granted and used by certain countries for the advancement of primitive dictatorial ideologies at the expense of the West.

Edited by Leafless
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IF Israel does strike then get ready for the end of the Middle-East as we know it because there won't be nothing left after the nukes go off! Russia and China have already said they will strike back whoever does harm to Iran. Plus, tit will put all the NATO forces in danger of being killed along with the millions of people that live in that area. There are other ways to handle Iran and bombing is not one of them and if you think the price of oil is high now, if this happens you'd be lucky to find gas.

No I do not think Russia or China will do that. They ain't stupid. In this day and age they will simply fund proxy ground wars and use their econmic clout to protect their economies and in China's case they don't need an army or conventional war to take down the West just some economic manouvers.

However you can be sure if Israel took out a nuke reactor it would do it with extreme precision to avoid disrupting any natural gas or oil flow to China. They aint stupid either.

Also do not underestimate the 2 faces of China one which sucks up to Iran and controls most of its oil and natural gas and the other which has no problems buying military technology from Israel.

I do concede there would be a serious chain reaction much of which can not be predicted and could set off a wide range of terrorist responses and ground wars and a huge negative effect on world markets.

Edited by Rue
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I would prefer if the iranian die for Israel....I think they and we have the know how to see that happen.

I would prefer that NO ONE die for either Israel or Iran.

Bring the troops home and stop fu***ng around in other's people's business.

But go ahead and monger the war.

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I would prefer that NO ONE die for either Israel or Iran.

Bring the troops home and stop fu***ng around in other's people's business.

But go ahead and monger the war.

Hold on a second....didn't Canada want 'merkins to die for their wars...not once....but twice?

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