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McCain backs Khadr's return


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He is being charged as a war criminal and yet he can't be a child soldier?

He could be, but from what we know so far he is not . There is a UN definition of child-soldiers. However his defence can find or rather fabricate some evidence that this Khadr was forcefully involved in war. But I still remember his mother words when they were leaving Canada bound to Afganistan. And I have no doubt it was his own choice to fight against the West. I believe many people think the same. Poor real child sodiers in Africa have no resemblense to this Khadr.

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Another blustery statement. Even Wikipedia says that he is often identified as a child solder.

Not according to the definition of the MCA, (Military Commissions Act).

During the proceeding, the prosecution asserted that Congress’ definition of “persons” in the MCA as “any infant members of an organization” supports the intent to include children when charging individuals under the act.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Khadr_case_c...E2%80%9D_debate

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He could be, but from what we know so far he is not . There is a UN definition of child-soldiers. However his defence can find or rather fabricate some evidence that this Khadr was forcefully involved in war. But I still remember his mother words when they were leaving Canada bound to Afganistan. And I have no doubt it was his own choice to fight against the West. I believe many people think the same. Poor real child sodiers in Africa have no resemblense to this Khadr.

The evidence that seems to be in question is whether Khadr was actually responsible for the death of the U.S. soldier. The JAG lawyers have raised strong evidence that he might not have been the one. In fact, a lot of the evidence seems to be missing in this case.

Child soldiers are obviously recognized by the U.S. They released three of them from Guantanamo already.

A 15 year old is under the custody of his or her parents. If they use them to engage in war, they are child soldiers. I don't know if it can be any clearer.

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Not according to the definition of the MCA, (Military Commissions Act).

Which is being challenged again. All the previous laws have been ruled illegal by the Supreme Court.

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New Argus' definition of evil (err I mean left-wing). Anyone who believes that Khadr should be tried, and sentenced for any crime he committed, according to the fundamental rules of justice.

No, that's my definition of a lying hypocrite.

There are innocent people in horrific prisons around the world being tortured and killed every day. There are slave labour camps throughout China and concentration camps which hold hundreds of thousands of people in North Korea. People are being butchered in wholesale lots from one end of the planet to the other. And not a single, solitary word or thought about them from the likes of you.

But Omar Khadr. Oh the poor boy! Oh my god the injustice! The inhumanity! We have to do something for him! We have to get him back and get him a fair trial! (imagine Canadien and his lefty friends running around in circles crying and pulling at their hair).

Edited by Argus
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No, that's my definition of a lying hypocrite.

There are innocent people in horrific prisons around the world being tortured and killed every day. There are slave labour camps throughout China and concentration camps which hold hundreds of thousands of people in North Korea. People are being butchered in wholesale lots from one end of the planet to the other. And not a single, solitary word or thought about them from the likes of you.

But Omar Khadr. Oh the poor boy! Oh my god the injustice! The inhumanity! We have to do something for him! We have to get him back and get him a fair trial! (imagine Canadien and his lefty friends running around in circles crying and pulling at their hair).

So we should ignore any and all injustices until, worldwide, all of them can be fixed?

Edited by Fortunata
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So we should ignore any and all injustices until, worldwide, all of them can be fixed?

I believe the point that Argus is trying to make is that severe injustices exist about which no one ever hears or really gives a Damn. When placed into perspective the perceived injustices against Khadr pail in comparison. The fact that Khadr has become something of a cause celebre amongst certain circles does not negate or mitigate these other injustices. So why waste time on this waste of skin when so many other worthy causes go unaddressed?

My personal opinion is that he is scum, not someone desirable for Canada to make great efforts on behalf of. I agree with those who say send him back to Afghanistan and the Taliban he so loves. Our boys would make short work of the little tit if he was doing what he desires to do, fighting against fellow citizens..

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What makes him scum? His family name? The fact that he lived by his father's rules, knowing nothing else?

What if: you have a 14 year old child. You have brought him up by your beliefs and morals. A drastic change in government ensues and your child is placed in a detention centre because of what he believes. People believe he is scum and should be treated badly. Is your son responsible or are you responsible for what he believes? Would he believe differently if he weren't under your roof given guidance by you?

I still say, should his last name not be Khadr, we would be having a whole different discussion.

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...I still say, should his last name not be Khadr, we would be having a whole different discussion.

No...perhaps not...which is the point made by Argus & Angus. There are plenty of "14 year olds" in far dire circumstances (or just plain dead) compared to Khadr's soap opera. Khadr is just a pawn in a political game.

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What the hell...if Canada doesn't want him, send him back to Afghanistan, and release him with a 20 minute head start. :lol:

What I want to know is where are you moving to. I mean you have that communist John McCain calling for the closure of G-bay or that other marxist leninist Burak Bam Bam talking about talking with Iran. Yegads. Slim pickings for thou.

Agree with your comment its all political gamesmanship at this point.

Is till say Kadr should be been treated as a prisoner of war.

Edited by Rue
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Both Liberals and Tories have not known what to do with this whole thing.

That's because the principle of (Harper's) Tories is, the rights aren't for everybody, but for those who deserve them (and they'll judge who's deserving, of course). While Liberals struggle to figure out what their principles are in the first place.

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That's because the principle of (Harper's) Tories is, the rights aren't for everybody, but for those who deserve them (and they'll judge who's deserving, of course). While Liberals struggle to figure out what their principles are in the first place.

Taking a quick scan through the posts on this topic, it seems that Canadian Conservatives have abandoned the concept of rule of law, just as completely as the American Neocons who run the Republican Party! Now, with the WAR ON TERROR played as the trump card to deny civil rights, Canadian conservatives are goose-stepping right along with their American counterparts, using the ends-justify-the-means argument to excuse torture, abuse, illegal detention, illegal surveillance etc.

Does it matter whether you like Omar Kadr or his family? It shouldn't, unless you believe democracy is too weak a system of government to face the "enemy" and some sort of fascism that can act above the law (like Jack Bauer in 24) is needed to fight this war that Neocons tell us has to be fought everywhere the "enemy" is and will likely go on forever, or maybe only 100 years, according to John McCain.

So, now that most Canadian conservatives seem to want to imitate their American big brothers, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that Prime Minister Blockhead refuses to act in an effort to release a Canadian national being detained in a foreign country without charge even though his government was aware that he subjected to torture and interrogation techniques that violate international law!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...PStory/National

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Taking a quick scan through the posts on this topic, it seems that Canadian Conservatives have abandoned the concept of rule of law, just as completely as the American Neocons who run the Republican Party! Now, with the WAR ON TERROR played as the trump card to deny civil rights, Canadian conservatives are goose-stepping right along with their American counterparts, using the ends-justify-the-means argument to excuse torture, abuse, illegal detention, illegal surveillance etc.

'Tis a weak correlation given the LPC's support for detentions, "illegal" wars, security certificates, and AdScam. But we understand you have to try anyway.

Does it matter whether you like Omar Kadr or his family? It shouldn't, unless you believe democracy is too weak a system of government to face the "enemy" and some sort of fascism that can act above the law (like Jack Bauer in 24) is needed to fight this war that Neocons tell us has to be fought everywhere the "enemy" is and will likely go on forever, or maybe only 100 years, according to John McCain.

"John McCain" would explain the American actions.....not Canada's. You do know the difference, right? Whatever happened to all that "Just Say No To Iraq" pride?

So, now that most Canadian conservatives seem to want to imitate their American big brothers, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that Prime Minister Blockhead refuses to act in an effort to release a Canadian national being detained in a foreign country without charge even though his government was aware that he subjected to torture and interrogation techniques that violate international law!

Well, I sure am glad it isn't the other way around (imitating little brothers).

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That's because the principle of (Harper's) Tories is, the rights aren't for everybody, but for those who deserve them (and they'll judge who's deserving, of course). While Liberals struggle to figure out what their principles are in the first place.

Spot on! The right really don't have steadfast convictions: they believe in the rule of law unless it involves someone like Khadr (even though he was a child heavily under the influence of his families convictions and, even if proven not guilty in the US's kangaroo court won't believe it), they don't believe in abortion unless it is someone like a Khadr. There is really no true ethics or morality that you can count on with the far right. The only thing you can count on is double standards.

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Spot on! The right really don't have steadfast convictions: they believe in the rule of law unless it involves someone like Khadr (even though he was a child heavily under the influence of his families convictions and, even if proven not guilty in the US's kangaroo court won't believe it), they don't believe in abortion unless it is someone like a Khadr. There is really no true ethics or morality that you can count on with the far right. The only thing you can count on is double standards.

Khadr's mum...now that's a piece of work! Where were the liberal child protection kidnappers when you need them?

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Spot on! The right really don't have steadfast convictions: they believe in the rule of law unless it involves someone like Khadr (even though he was a child heavily under the influence of his families convictions and, even if proven not guilty in the US's kangaroo court won't believe it), they don't believe in abortion unless it is someone like a Khadr. There is really no true ethics or morality that you can count on with the far right. The only thing you can count on is double standards.

I'm sure if I searched through all of your past posts, Forunata, I would see you holding the "insurgents", Taliban and Al Queda to the same "rule of law" high standards you have set for the United States. In fact, I'm sure all you lefties are completely outraged every time you see Al Queda gently bend the rules of the Geneva Convention. :rolleyes: I know all you bleeding hearts gather together with the djembe drums and protest the outside the Iranian and Syrian embassies to decry their disregard for "rule of law" when it comes to their prisoners. No instead you protest because a fanatical murderer has to sit too long in the same position or has had a dog bark at him.

I think perhaps that since we're so intent on following the "rule of law" perhaps we should send poor little Omar back to the country where he is accused of committing his crime. Maybe a little Afgan style of due process would help the situation. I'm sure Omar would miss the loud music at Gitmo once they started cutting off his fingers or began throwing rocks at him. Perhaps then naive Canadians would get a gimpse at what torture truly is.

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Khadr being born a Canadian has all the rights any Canadian has when being imprisoned in another country. The evidence is just hear-say and as far as I'm concern to date, they haven't any solid evidence that he killed anyone. We do have proof that the US military has killed innocent Afghanistan's and Iraqis but that ok?? The news reported he can't come because his family has links to alQueda. IF that is so why is his family still here in Canada ? What no proof? Why is this government willing to HELP some Canadians out of jail in other countries but not Khadr? By the way Harper plays being PM, it just shows how right voters are at times, when they gave him a minority government!

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I'm sure if I searched through all of your past posts, Forunata, I would see you holding the "insurgents", Taliban and Al Queda to the same "rule of law" high standards you have set for the United States. In fact, I'm sure all you lefties are completely outraged every time you see Al Queda gently bend the rules of the Geneva Convention. :rolleyes: I know all you bleeding hearts gather together with the djembe drums and protest the outside the Iranian and Syrian embassies to decry their disregard for "rule of law" when it comes to their prisoners. No instead you protest because a fanatical murderer has to sit too long in the same position or has had a dog bark at him.

I think perhaps that since we're so intent on following the "rule of law" perhaps we should send poor little Omar back to the country where he is accused of committing his crime. Maybe a little Afgan style of due process would help the situation. I'm sure Omar would miss the loud music at Gitmo once they started cutting off his fingers or began throwing rocks at him. Perhaps then naive Canadians would get a gimpse at what torture truly is.

A few things .... I don't hold insurgents, the Taliban and al Qaeda to our standards. I want to hold us to our standards. It's what makes us who we are and them what they are. It's as simple as that. I can't control what they do or who they are but I want my country to be what people fought and died for - not the low standards that other people think we should bend to.

Little Omar has not been convicted of anything. What happened to innocent until proven (or in this case railroaded) guilty? You would expect proper legal procedures for yourself in a court of law, why should it be any different for anyone else? You go ahead and roll in the gutter a la al Qaeda and the Taliban but I don't want to do anything their way.

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No, that's my definition of a lying hypocrite.

So what you're saying is that you're not a hypocrite, because you posted as much about this as you did this

Right?

Face it chief - the closer something is to our home, Canada, the more airplay it gets. You're just as guilty of it as we are.

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His mother makes me puke.

His lawyers manipulating the press and emotion to gain him sympathy make me puke.

People who say he is only a child make me puke.

The fact is he was a child soldier. The fact is he engaged in war at the time he was captured and at the time he threw the grenade that killed US soldiers so he should have been placed in a military prison as a prisoner of war and held until the war is over.

The fact is the laws and system behind G-Bay have clearly been rejected by the US Supreme Court as unconstitutional and the governments of Britain and Australia pulled their prisoners out of G-Bay precisely because they felt the legal system begind it is completely and utterly flawed.

To me there are two issues. The issue as to the law for me is simple-George Bush deliberately violated international law and US domestic law to create a kangeroo court to showcase this child soldier and in so doing have made a mockery of everything the US stands for and claims to be fighting for.

That said, in regards to Kad's family, they are manipulative, opportunistic, two faced, hippocritical sob's and I would deport them all. Good riddance to manipulative, terrorist trash who urinate on and ridicule everything Canada stands for and then have the nerve to demand they be treated like Canadians with the very same rights that come from the system they urinate on.

As for Kadr, the emtional manipulation his lawyers are engaging in to try create a political outcry is a deliebrate and crass tactic.

They could have argued the law and won. Instead they chose to have him displayed like a monkey crying on cue in his cage.

All we now need is PETA picketing and demanding this cruelty to caged chimpanzees in the lab be ended or pictures of bloodied seals inter-mixed with Kadr's sobbings.

He's a bloody prisoner of war. He stopped being a child years ago.

Canadians living in a sheltered world have no clue what it means to be a child who is trained to be a soldier and what they are capable of.

No they are not just children. They are lethal killing machines.

Kadr is not some misunderstood stray cat you bring home and feed.

He's ferral.

Releasing him back into society at this point is ridiculous.

He's now for all intents and purposes a socio-path who will always see himself as a victim entitled to everything Canadian society offers its citizens.

He's no victim.

Treating him according to the law should not be confused with feeling sorry for him and pretending he is a harmless child.

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His mother makes me puke.

His lawyers manipulating the press and emotion to gain him sympathy make me puke.

People who say he is only a child make me puke.

The fact is he was a child soldier. The fact is he engaged in war at the time he was captured and at the time he threw the grenade that killed US soldiers so he should have been placed in a military prison as a prisoner of war and held until the war is over.

Calling the grenade-lobbing charge a fact is a total misrepresentation of the meaning of the word "fact." All we have as evidence are eyewitness accounts that can be challenged on a number of grounds regarding their credibility, and after violating all of the standard civil rights, including the use of torture, I seriously doubt that the murder charge could stick even with a jury from Lubbock, Texas! If there is a criminal case to be made against Omar Kadr, it has long since evaporated!

The fact is the laws and system behind G-Bay have clearly been rejected by the US Supreme Court as unconstitutional and the governments of Britain and Australia pulled their prisoners out of G-Bay precisely because they felt the legal system begind it is completely and utterly flawed.

Okay.....

To me there are two issues. The issue as to the law for me is simple-George Bush deliberately violated international law and US domestic law to create a kangeroo court to showcase this child soldier and in so doing have made a mockery of everything the US stands for and claims to be fighting for.

That said, in regards to Kad's family, they are manipulative, opportunistic, two faced, hippocritical sob's and I would deport them all. Good riddance to manipulative, terrorist trash who urinate on and ridicule everything Canada stands for and then have the nerve to demand they be treated like Canadians with the very same rights that come from the system they urinate on.

As for Kadr, the emtional manipulation his lawyers are engaging in to try create a political outcry is a deliebrate and crass tactic.

They could have argued the law and won. Instead they chose to have him displayed like a monkey crying on cue in his cage.

All we now need is PETA picketing and demanding this cruelty to caged chimpanzees in the lab be ended or pictures of bloodied seals inter-mixed with Kadr's sobbings.

He's a bloody prisoner of war. He stopped being a child years ago.

Canadians living in a sheltered world have no clue what it means to be a child who is trained to be a soldier and what they are capable of.

No they are not just children. They are lethal killing machines.

Kadr is not some misunderstood stray cat you bring home and feed.

He's ferral.

Releasing him back into society at this point is ridiculous.

He's now for all intents and purposes a socio-path who will always see himself as a victim entitled to everything Canadian society offers its citizens.

He's no victim.

Treating him according to the law should not be confused with feeling sorry for him and pretending he is a harmless child.

This has got to be the most schizophrenic post I've read lately!

According to you, issue one is that Gitmo is part of list of deliberate violations of international law by the Bush Admin. that have made the U.S. no different in respect for rule of law than any other banana republic, but issue two is: the Kadr family is despicable and Omar Kadr is a P.O.W., so that makes him a danger to society enough to continue violating all of his rights as a Canadian citizen!

Did you actually think this line of reasoning made any sense when you wrote it? The whole point of having a society with guarantees of civil rights and rule of law is to protect the rights of those who are unliked and unwanted by the majority! The rich, and the powerful, and those who stand with majority opinion do not need as much protection from the government or from the mob, as those who are on society's margins.

From what we do know of Omar Kadr, his father was a jihadist, who wanted his sons to be holy warriors also. Omar joined his father and older brother to fight, when he was only 14 years old; so you also have a challenge in proving that he was mature enough to act according to his own free will.

Face it, there is no criminal case to be made, and the only recourse the Canadian government should make, is to do what should have been done five years ago; petition for his release and keep a watchful eye on his activities when he returns to Canada. That shouldn't be too difficult! I think it's a safe bet that CSIS is keeping tabs on the rest of the family.

The whole argument for the way the Bush Whitehouse has been running the W.O.T. is that the ends justify the means! And if you agree with this argument, as most conservatives seem to do, then you are supporting fascism!

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

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