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Israelis Assault Award Winning IPS Journalist


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Israelis Assault Award Winning IPS Journalist Mohammed Omer

The security men also demanded he show all the money he had on him, and particular attention was paid to the British pounds he was carrying. His Gellhorn prize money had been awarded in British pounds but he was not carrying the entire sum on him bodily, something the investigators refused to believe.

After being unable to produce the prize money, he was ordered to strip naked.

“At first I refused but then I had an M16 (gun) pointed in my face and my clothes were forcibly removed, even my underwear,” Omer said.

At this point Omer broke down and pleaded for an end to such treatment. He said he was told, “you haven’t seen anything yet.” Every cavity of his body was searched as one of the investigators pinned him down on the floor, placing his boot on Omer’s neck. Omer began vomiting, and fainted.

When he came round his eyelids were being forcibly opened and his eardrums probed by an Israeli military doctor, who was also armed. He was then dragged along the floor by his feet by the Shin Bet officials, with his head repeatedly banging on the floor, to a Palestinian ambulance which had been called.

“I eventually woke up in a Palestinian hospital with the doctors trying to reassure me,” Omer told IPS.

The Dutch Foreign Ministry at the Hague told IPS that Foreign Minister Maxime Zerhagen spoke to the Israeli ambassador to The Netherlands and demanded an explanation.

The Dutch embassy in Tel Aviv has also raised the issue with the Israeli Foreign Ministry, which in turn has promised to investigate the incident and get back to the Dutch officials.

Ahmed Dadou, spokesman from the Dutch Foreign Ministry at the Hague told IPS, “We are taking this whole incident very seriously as we don’t believe the behaviour of the Israeli officials is in accordance with a modern democracy.

“We are further concerned about the mistreatment of an internationally renowned journalist trying to go about his daily business,” added Dadou.

Well, the Dutch shouldn't hold their breath.

That said, I do hope that someone gets a good chewing out over this incident, thank goodness that Omer is still alive - not in great shape - but certainly better than being dead - like his reuters counterpart Fadel Shana whose death has yet to be addressed what so ever by Israeli authorities.

Ahhh, yes - but this is par for the course for Israel and her various security apparati - whether the Shin Bet or IDF.

I can only wish Mohammed Omer a speedy recovery - as well as hoping that he will stay safe.

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Israelis Assault Award Winning IPS Journalist Mohammed Omer

Well, the Dutch shouldn't hold their breath.

That said, I do hope that someone gets a good chewing out over this incident, thank goodness that Omer is still alive - not in great shape - but certainly better than being dead - like his reuters counterpart Fadel Shana whose death has yet to be addressed what so ever by Israeli authorities.

Ahhh, yes - but this is par for the course for Israel and her various security apparati - whether the Shin Bet or IDF.

I can only wish Mohammed Omer a speedy recovery - as well as hoping that he will stay safe.

Oh the poor fragile flower.....

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Oh the poor fragile flower.....

The behaviour as described is abominable and intolerable. The problem, of course, is that you can't believe Palestinians and their supporters. They lie like rugs. It is not at all unbelievable that he was detained briefly, was kept alone in a room for an hour and a half, let go, and then made the rest up. I'm not saying he did, merely that the history of this conflict says that almost no one tells the truth, and grandiose lies and stories are more the norm than the exception.

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The behaviour as described is abominable and intolerable. The problem, of course, is that you can't believe Palestinians and their supporters. They lie like rugs. It is not at all unbelievable that he was detained briefly, was kept alone in a room for an hour and a half, let go, and then made the rest up. I'm not saying he did, merely that the history of this conflict says that almost no one tells the truth, and grandiose lies and stories are more the norm than the exception.

I think the whole episode is an exageration. Palestinian Fiction writers journalists have more in common with Pearl S Buck than Daniel Pearl.

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Israelis Assault Award Winning IPS Journalist Mohammed Omer

Well, the Dutch shouldn't hold their breath.

That said, I do hope that someone gets a good chewing out over this incident, thank goodness that Omer is still alive - not in great shape - but certainly better than being dead - like his reuters counterpart Fadel Shana whose death has yet to be addressed what so ever by Israeli authorities.

Ahhh, yes - but this is par for the course for Israel and her various security apparati - whether the Shin Bet or IDF.

I can only wish Mohammed Omer a speedy recovery - as well as hoping that he will stay safe.

So when do you fly to Zimbabwe and Sudan on your human rights campaign?

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Buffy the reason I do not take your posts seriously is because you to me personally it is blatantly obvious you are trying to exploit the above incident for your usual Israel is poo political agenda.

Your selective outrage for me is hard to take.

Tell me, will you come on this post and also show equal outrage over the fact in Iran, journalists have been rounded up and arrested and tortured and there is no free press. Will you cry yourself to sleep tonight fretting over what happened to Jelveh Havahar, Maryan Mosseinkah or for that manager Kurd Teacher Farzad Kamanger, the continued persecution of Bahaiis, students and anyone else who dares write anything critical of the government?

Tell me, where is your outrage over what is going on with Newspaper Editor Ibrahim Eissa in Egypt or how Abdel Halim Kandil was beaten?

Tell us all, do you cry over the car bim assassination of journalist Samir Qassif by Syrian intelligence in Lebanon or their murder of journalist dayf al-Ghazal-al Shuhaibi, Al Nahar and Gabran Tueni?

Oh wait, do I hear you crying over Jamal Amar for being beaten senseless by the Yemen Republican guard?

Say now do you have sleepless nights over the 58 jouralists deliberately murdered during the algerian civil war between 1993 and 1996?

Do you have chills over Bail Subaya being arrested and sentenced to death in Yemen for apostasy for writing an article suggesting the President was preparing his son to take over?

Tell me Buffy do you speak of journalists rounded up and arrested and tortured through-out the Middle East other then in Israel or anywhere else in the world?

Say now, have you once written in talking about the human rights violations of journalists in Brazil, China, Sri Lanka, Pakistan and elsewhere?

Say now, I get it. Let's just pretend there is only one country in the world with problems right Buffy and concentrate all our attention pointing that out.

That's credible. It sure impresses me.

Here is the point Buffy. The freedom of the press in Israel is a fact. It exists no where else in the Middle East. That is also a fact.

Your usual selective attempt to point out the above story to suggest Israel is poo does but one thing-establish you are remarkably selective.

Yay for Buffy. She hates Israel. How original.

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  • 2 weeks later...

What's par for the course is the tribal warfare that goes on here regarding the I&P conflict.

People downplay or dismiss any bad thing their side does, and any good thing the other side does. They exaggerate or fabricate bad things about the other side, and good things about their side. The other side is always lying, always deceitful, always evil, and irrational warmongers. Their side is righteous, moral, and peaceful.

Myself? I'm with Thomas Friedman on this, you live in the Middle East, you play by Middle East rules, that means that no one side in this conflict has any more moral ground than the other.

When one side targets civilians with suicide bombers, and the other targets them with an occupation, it takes an exceptional kind of prick to believe that either of them deserve to be put on a pedestal.

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Myself? I'm with Thomas Friedman on this, you live in the Middle East, you play by Middle East rules, that means that no one side in this conflict has any more moral ground than the other.

Ah yes, the freedom to be intellectually lazy and make no judgements.

When one side targets civilians with suicide bombers, and the other targets them with an occupation, it takes an exceptional kind of prick to believe that either of them deserve to be put on a pedestal.

It takes exceptional moral bankruptcy to equate the deliberate planned murder of entirely uninvolved civilians with the defensive act of holding territory to act as a buffer in the event of a war, or to prevent crazy people from rocketing your cities.

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Stop it Argus, you are ruining his parade of inclusion and progression.

Suicide bomber targets a pizzeria and Israeli soldiers strike at a bomb making centre which kills a neighbour - it's all the same to these types. Motives do not matter.

In their world dying from old age or first degree murder are perfectly at peace with each other, I mean - they are both dead right? The details don't matter.

ho hum

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Stop it Argus, you are ruining his parade of inclusion and progression.

Suicide bomber targets a pizzeria and Israeli soldiers strike at a bomb making centre which kills a neighbour - it's all the same to these types. Motives do not matter.

In their world dying from old age or first degree murder are perfectly at peace with each other, I mean - they are both dead right? The details don't matter.

ho hum

Here's a bet. I bet that none of thse oh-so-concerned human rights activists who start threads like this every time the Israelis are alleged to have mistreated someone will say one word about the fact the Israeli "prisoners" Hezbollah took captive two years back are being returned to Israel in coffins. Arab prisoners always seem to wind up dead, without a whisper of criticism from their backers over here. Lebanon, meanwhile, is declaring a national holiday because the Israelis are releasing a baby killer from prison. Apparently if you can kill an Israeli baby you're a national hero to the Lebanese. No doubt there'll be big parades to celebrate the return of such a heroic individual, and no doubt the Bufffys of the west will smile benignly.

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Here's a bet. I bet that none of thse oh-so-concerned human rights activists who start threads like this every time the Israelis are alleged to have mistreated someone will say one word about the fact the Israeli "prisoners" Hezbollah took captive two years back are being returned to Israel in coffins. Arab prisoners always seem to wind up dead, without a whisper of criticism from their backers over here.

If the Zionist Entity were serious about dealing fairly they would return the glorious lebanese ninja fighters who risked their lives to kill zionist toddlers in the same pristine condition the Lebanese return the captured Zionist entity terrorists.

</dons cloak of anti zionist rabble rouser>

Edited by M.Dancer
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Ah yes, the freedom to be intellectually lazy and make no judgements.

Thomas Friedman is intellectually lazy?

Care to expand on this? Seems a pretty lazy statement to make.

It takes exceptional moral bankruptcy to equate the deliberate planned murder of entirely uninvolved civilians with the defensive act of holding territory to act as a buffer in the event of a war, or to prevent crazy people from rocketing your cities.

Cue your righteous pro-Palestinian equivalent to make the same kind of statement about the occupation.

By the way - how many times do you have to say that in the mirror at night so you can sleep?

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Motives do not matter.

Of course they do. Collectively punishing (and therefor, killing) civilians with an occupation is in my books just as bad as killing them occasionally (in comparison to how often Palestinian civilians are killed) in planned attacks.

In their world dying from old age or first degree murder are perfectly at peace with each other, I mean - they are both dead right?

Like most pro-Israeli fanatics, you're whitewashing the effects of the occupation because it would tarnish your angelic image of Israel. Pragmatism isn't your strong suit.

Fact of the matter is, the occupation kills directly (through reckless shelling of civilian neighborhoods) and indirectly (medical shortages, food shortages, etc).

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Of course they do. Collectively punishing (and therefor, killing) civilians with an occupation is in my books just as bad as killing them occasionally (in comparison to how often Palestinian civilians are killed) in planned attacks.

Like most pro-Israeli fanatics, you're whitewashing the effects of the occupation because it would tarnish your angelic image of Israel. Pragmatism isn't your strong suit.

Fact of the matter is, the occupation kills directly (through reckless shelling of civilian neighborhoods) and indirectly (medical shortages, food shortages, etc).

I see, so you do not agree with the geneva conventions in regards to being in a uniform?

You also disgaree with the geneva conventions in regards to placing military installations behind a civilian shield? You DO know what the geneva conventions says about this do you not?

I am not a pro-israeli fanatic, but label my thus if you must. throwing out labels and calling people names is the last resort of the intellectually unprepared. I happen to think Israel shold and will withdraw from the westbank. I do, however, think that the burden of the conflict, especially since 2001, falls squarely on the shoulders of the palestinian leadership.

A prince in SA agrees with me and he was one the chief negotiators of the Camp David Accords.

At the end of the day you have to have two sides to a conflict agree to want peace. The palestinians have rejected peace time and time and time again. What's here for the Israeli's to get excited about?

Just today they returned a mass murdered over, alive, for dead Israeli soldiers. That's a 'fair' deal in the Arab world when dealing with the nazi zionists.. apparently you agree with them.

Like most pro-Israeli fanatics, you're whitewashing the effects of the occupation because it would tarnish your angelic image of Israel. Pragmatism isn't your strong suit.

Fact of the matter is, the occupation kills directly (through reckless shelling of civilian neighborhoods) and indirectly (medical shortages, food shortages, etc).

And this statement is so full of crap, it bears repeating. All Palestinians, even failed suicide bombers are afforded world class, free Isaeli health care. However, they consistently refuse to accept it.

You are also forgetting about Gaza. Israel unilateraly withdrew from there, where is the peace? Why are people still dying there? I mean, Israel isn't occupying it anymore, so presumably, in your shangri-la world, there should be peace on earth in gaza. Meanwhile - back in reality they still hate the Jews and launch random missles trying to get lucky hitting a day care.

Meanwhile, leftists like you continue to defend these actions as morally comparable to the collatoral damage Israel inflicts when it finally tries to take out missle and bomb factories. Why today the Gazan's were passing around candy celebrating the death of the Israeli soldiers. The PM of Lebanon is scheduled to make a speech to mark the 'joyous' occasion of the mass murderer who smashed a 4 year old girls head in with the butt of his rifle after making her watch him kill her father. All was not lost though, the mother survived and in the process killed her new born by suffocating it by mistake to make sure that this same man didn't hear them and kill them too.

This is a hero in the Arab world. This is who Israel is negotiaing 'peace' with. This is how they think. This is what they believe.

And yet this is the same to you. The same as Israeli soldiers trying to defend their citizens? Fair minded people disagree with you, not to mention the Geneva conventions.

There will not be peace for Israel until the Arabs there love their children more than they hate the Jew.

You, especially, would be wise to wake up and realize this.

Reality isn't your strong suit.

Edited by White Doors
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Like most pro-Israeli fanatics, you're whitewashing the effects of the occupation because it would tarnish your angelic image of Israel. Pragmatism isn't your strong suit.

Fact of the matter is, the occupation kills directly (through reckless shelling of civilian neighborhoods) and indirectly (medical shortages, food shortages, etc).

...and like most anti-Israeli fanatics you engage in presumptious, sanctimonious accusations as to the very actions you criticize others for. Realism or credibility aren't your strong suits.

Fact of the matter is a preacher should zip up his pants before engaging in sermons so he can limit knowledge of his short-comings to his words, not his divine essence.

Oy.

Edited by Rue
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Thomas Friedman is intellectually lazy?

Anyone who says there is no difference in the morality of their behaviour is either intellectually lazy or stupid and ignorant.

Cue your righteous pro-Palestinian equivalent to make the same kind of statement about the occupation.

See above for descriptions of such people.

By the way - how many times do you have to say that in the mirror at night so you can sleep?

Are you implying that having a moral compass makes it hard to sleep at night? Is that why you got rid of yours?

Edited by Argus
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Yep, this is a fair trade for the Israeli's... they best that they can get..

In the dead of night on April 22, 1979, Kantar and three other gunmen made their way in a rubber dinghy from Lebanon to the sleepy Israeli coastal town of Nahariya, eight kilometres south of the Lebanese border. There, in a hail of gunfire and exploding grenades, they killed a policeman who stumbled upon them, then burst into the apartment of Danny Haran, herding him and his four-year-old daughter outside at gunpoint to the beach below, where they were killed.

An Israeli court found that Kantar shot Danny Haran in front of his child, then smashed her head with his rifle butt.

Haran's wife, Smadar, who had fled into a crawl space in the family apartment with her two-year-old daughter, accidentally smothered the child with her hand while trying to stifle her cries.

This is what he did, and he is a hero! a hero for killing a 4 year old 'pig' as they want to call them

On Tuesday, Hezbollah's commander in south Lebanon, Sheik Nabil Kaouk, called the swap an "official admission of defeat" for Israel.

A giant red carpet was rolled out along a road next to the seashore on the Lebanese side of the border, next to dozens of yellow Hezbollah flags whipping in the breeze.

Hezbollah supporters set up a makeshift stage in the coastal town of Naqoura, where a brass band awaited the returning prisoners. On the platform stood a large photograph of a weeping Israeli woman. A nearby sign read, "Israel is shedding tears of pain."

"Lebanon is shedding tears of joy," read another.

An official ceremony was planned at Beirut Airport and was to be attended by Lebanon's president, prime minister and parliament speaker. Later, Nasrallah was to address what is expected to be a huge celebration at Hezbollah's stronghold south of Beirut.

meanwhile, the Israeli's got two dead bodies in exchange for letting go a mass murderer..

After two difficult years, this was the most difficult moment," he said. "Karnit vowed to bring Udi home. Now that this mission has been accomplished, a storm of emotions has erupted. ... We are in a difficult state."

Regev's father, Zvi, said he fell apart the moment he saw Hezbollah take the coffins out of a van and place them on the ground.

"It was horrible to see it. I didn't want to, I asked them to turn off the TV," he said, choking back tears.

"We were always hoping that Udi and Eldad were alive and that they would come home and we would hug them," he added, using Ehud Goldwasser's nickname. "We had this hope all the time."

See, this is a fair trade in the Arab world.

And what does our venerable UN have to say about this?

UN chief Ban Ki-moon, speaking in Germany, said he hoped Wednesday's prisoner swap would be "the beginning of many to come in the future."

Well that's good news. Maybe he will go dancing in the streets in Beirut with them all. We could give Kayat a humanitarian award. Better yet, appoint him to a human rights commission!

I mean, all hezbollah has to do now is sneak across the border, kill some soldiers or civilians and take theor bodies back with them negotiate with the Israeli's and get back more murderers. And the UN is down with it. It's all cool. It's how 'business' is practiced there.

Edited by White Doors
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I see, so you do not agree with the geneva conventions in regards to being in a uniform?

You also disgaree with the geneva conventions in regards to placing military installations behind a civilian shield? You DO know what the geneva conventions says about this do you not?

Sure, do you know what international law says about military occupation?

Do you know what the UN says about the Israeli occupation?

Good, so we both agree that both sides are out of step with international law.

I do, however, think that the burden of the conflict, especially since 2001, falls squarely on the shoulders of the palestinian leadership.

Even with Israel's policy of underminding the PA to a point where they were not capable of living up to their end of the bargain, then using this as an excuse for Israel to not live up to its end of the bargain (ie - removing settlements) ie - At one point Israel was bombing PA police stations, then a few months later was chastising the PA for not being able to get a handle on militants.

It's still just "all their fault?" I don't think so.

A prince in SA agrees with me and he was one the chief negotiators of the Camp David Accords.

A former US ambassador to the Israel and Egypt agrees with me and he was an architect of the Israeli-Egyptian peace accords. You know, the one that WORKED.

At the end of the day you have to have two sides to a conflict agree to want peace. The palestinians have rejected peace time and time and time again.

True, and Israel's offers have time and time again been lopsided in their favour (see: West Bank Cantonment)

So they're both guilty of wanting more land rather than wanting peace.

Just today they returned a mass murdered over, alive, for dead Israeli soldiers. That's a 'fair' deal in the Arab world when dealing with the nazi zionists.. apparently you agree with them.

I do? That's news to me.

Listen, I know you don't normally deal with people who don't pick sides in this conflict, but just because I don't like the idea of a "murderer" (although, I'd like to see an article, because often times the definition of if someone's a murderer or not is determined by what side of the (security) fence you're on) being freed in a prison swap - I also don't like Israel jailing elected officials just because they belong to Hamas, rather than the fact they committed a crime, and because it doesn't have authority in WB & Gaza anyway..

And this statement is so full of crap, it bears repeating. All Palestinians, even failed suicide bombers are afforded world class, free Isaeli health care. However, they consistently refuse to accept it.

They refuse to accept it for the same reason it's being offered - because of how their policies play to their own people. Israelis aren't any more altruistic than Palestinians, it's all PR - sorry.

You are also forgetting about Gaza. Israel unilateraly withdrew from there, where is the peace?

I wasn't aware that Israel unilaterally withdrew and gave sovereignty there to the Palestinians, because until recently, they had unilaterally closed the borders and seaport in an effort to strangle Gaza's economy, and collectively punish (and indirectly kill) it's civilians for electing and supporting Hamas (which responded with rocket attacks which killed innocent Israeli civilians).

Meanwhile, leftists like you continue to defend these actions as morally comparable to the collatoral damage Israel inflicts when it finally tries to take out missle and bomb factories.

It's only collateral damage if you kill people by accident. When Israel launches a missile at a car in a crowded market, it KNOWS it will kill civilians, it just doesn't care, because Palestinian lives aren't worth anything in Israeli politics and society - which is exactly why Israel behaves with what I call a murderous recklessness in choosing it's targets.

Targeting civilians through occupation and blockade is in my books morally equivalent to targeting civilians with suicide bombings. One is a slow death, the other is quick. It's disappointing that simpletons like you get distracted by the big explosions to the point where you can't see what's wrong with an occupation that keeps a population chronically malnourished, it's economy constantly sagging and it's institutions, such as health care, woefully underfunded.

Why today the Gazan's were passing around candy celebrating the death of the Israeli soldiers.

And right-wing Israeli blogs light up in celebration each time an Israeli offensive kills a Hamas gunman along with a dozen civilians.

This conflict has manufactured some pretty disgusting individuals on both sides.

The PM of Lebanon is scheduled to make a speech to mark the 'joyous' occasion of the mass murderer who smashed a 4 year old girls head in with

the butt of his rifle after making her watch him kill her father.

And Israel elected as PM a man who gave the green light to Lebanese Christians militias to slaughter innocent civilians.

Just like with sports, people are willing to forgive the dirt someone's done so long as they're playing for "their side"

This is a hero in the Arab world. This is who Israel is negotiaing 'peace' with. This is how they think. This is what they believe.

Let me guess, you're not racist - you just think Arabs are scum?

Lovely.

There will not be peace for Israel until the Arabs there love their children more than they hate the Jew..

They're won't be peace in the middle east so long as non-Jews think they're helping the situation by propping up the Likhud party with the belief that it speaks for all Israelis. And that Israel is an angel in some sort of cosmic war against the devlish Muslim horde.

This conflict isn't a proxy for your bigoted worldview, sorry - you don't get to play other people's lives.

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Aww.. I's got called a racist and a bigot. how humbling.

Let me guess, you're not racist - you just think Arabs are scum?

Lovely.

I judge people by their actions. The Arabs are the aggressors here, there is no question about it.

Why else did Arafat walk away from the Camp David accords without even offering a counter proposal?

Think about it? He didn't even make a counter offer? There are various thoughts as to why he didn't, one is that he could have been scared for his life should he have actually succeeded and accepting a Jewish State in the middle East. Others think it was because he wouldn't have been able to keep squandering the 100's of millions of dollars that he stole over the years, still others think that he never wanted peace in the first place and used the whole excercise as a PR stunt.

The end result was the same, he walked away and immediately gave the orders to start the intifada and the rest is history.

So if the PA leadership was interested in peace why do you think they did this?

They are interested in peace alright, as soon as Israel is no longer a Jewish state. That's the 'peace' that they are interested in. Egypt and Jordan have both signed peace accords with Israel, much to their credit. They have recognized Israel's right to exist as they are as a Jewish state. All of the other actors in the region - have not.

Israel also reacts in a very subdued and careful way when it is trying to protect it's citizens. It's Supreme court is the only one in the world that is able to shape military policy for it's armed forces while in a war. This has never happened before in any other country. It also has the most stringent anti-torturing rules in the whole world. It affords it's arab citizens full citizenship while it's neighbours like Jordan actually has laws that no Jews are even allowed there.

And you still insist on seeing both sides through the same moral compass?

That tells me your moral compass it broken - yet you call me the racist and bigot.

That's laughable.

The Arabs in that region use the Palestians are a bargaining chip hoping to make the ME 'Juden rein' and you are too blind to see it. That's fine - but don't call me a racist and a bigot for stating the facts. (which you are free to counter if you can but you are more likely to resort to insults and name calling as there is nothing I have said that is not true).

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Sure, do you know what international law says about military occupation?

Do you know what the UN says about the Israeli occupation?

Good, so we both agree that both sides are out of step with international law.

LOL, and you know the difference between war crimes and asking Israel to withdraw from occupied territories they won in a defensive war? I actually agree that they should withdraw and I believe they will, but note this, it will be the first time a nation has had to give back territory won in a defensive war. Seems fair right?

Well 'fair' was thrown out the window a long time ago. Fair in the ME is a fantasy, nevertheless, Israel carries on the just hopes for peace and to protect it's citizens the best they can while treating their murderous enemies with the utmost of medical care and human decency.

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Sure, do you know what international law says about military occupation?

Do you know what the UN says about the Israeli occupation?

Why would anyone care what the UN had to say about the Israeli occupation? I mean, seriously now. Do you also want to tell us what the KKK has to say about things? Maybe the Western Front will have some important opinions, too.

Even with Israel's policy of underminding the PA to a point where they were not capable of living up to their end of the bargain, then using this as an excuse for Israel to not live up to its end of the bargain (ie - removing settlements) ie - At one point Israel was bombing PA police stations, then a few months later was chastising the PA for not being able to get a handle on militants.

Nice excuse making, when half the time the militants are members of the PA, - and many of those "police" were activitly fighting against the Israelis.

It's still just "all their fault?" I don't think so.

It is not all their fault. I think surrounding Arab nations bear a huge burden of responsibility, which they have entirely shirked up to this point in time. And Israel has made mistakes, to be certain.

Listen, I know you don't normally deal with people who don't pick sides in this conflict,

So I'm curious. Would you take the same position if you were dealing with Hitler massacring Jews? I mean, would you still say (cue pompous phony intellectual voice) "Well, you know, there has been violence and human rights violations on both sides so I'm not going to decide one is more moral than the other."

but just because I don't like the idea of a "murderer" (although, I'd like to see an article, because often times the definition of if someone's a murderer or not is determined by what side of the (security) fence you're on) being freed in a prison swap - I also don't like Israel jailing elected officials just because they belong to Hamas, rather than the fact they committed a crime, and because it doesn't have authority in WB & Gaza anyway..

So you're saying that jailing elected officials and smashing in the head of a baby with a rifle are morally equivilent?

I wasn't aware that Israel unilaterally withdrew and gave sovereignty there to the Palestinians, because until recently, they had unilaterally closed the borders and seaport in an effort to strangle Gaza's economy, and collectively punish (and indirectly kill) it's civilians for electing and supporting Hamas (which responded with rocket attacks which killed innocent Israeli civilians).

Funny, but my memory is that the rocket and terrorist attacks precipitated the border closings and collective punishment. But then, I'm not as "neutral" as you.

It's only collateral damage if you kill people by accident. When Israel launches a missile at a car in a crowded market, it KNOWS it will kill civilians, it just doesn't care,

Nor should it. Nor can it. Given its enemy is embedded with the civilian population Israel can either fight them there, and accept civilian casualties, or give up. The responsibility is on the terrorists to not launch rocket attacks and put bomb factories in among civilians. But they do that deliberately to discourage attacks, or if attacked, to provide good propaganda for western morons who'll then condemn Israel.

because Palestinian lives aren't worth anything in Israeli politics and society - which is exactly why Israel behaves with what I call a murderous recklessness in choosing it's targets.

And you judge that due to your extensive knowledge and education on military affairs, right? It's generally so easy to fight against a guerrila army which operates in the midst of a mass of civilians without causing casualties.

Targeting civilians through occupation and blockade is in my books morally equivalent to targeting civilians with suicide bombings.

Well, we've already seen that you have a pretty poor grasp of morality and ethics. Tell, me, when Paul Martin cut transfer payments, which damaged health care in Canada, was that the moral equivilent to putting a gun against the head of a baby and blowing its brains out too? I'm just trying to get a grasp of how far out there you are.

One is a slow death, the other is quick. It's disappointing that simpletons like you get distracted by the big explosions to the point where you can't see what's wrong with an occupation that keeps a population chronically malnourished, it's economy constantly sagging and it's institutions, such as health care, woefully underfunded.

Because without Israel Palestine would be a paradise, right? I mean, right up there with Yemen in their superb health care and economic infrastructure. The fact the place has no resources, little water, and little education beyond "scholars" who've read the Koran five hundred times.

Let me guess, you're not racist - you just think Arabs are scum?

That seems to be how you feel about Jews. Though of course, you won't say so openly.

Lovely.

They're won't be peace in the middle east so long as non-Jews think they're helping the situation by propping up the Likhud party with the belief that it speaks for all Israelis. And that Israel is an angel in some sort of cosmic war against the devlish Muslim horde.

Israel is no angel. But when a people live their entire lives under the threat that some Palestinian will sneak under the wire, or crawl over it, or get around it and then, like a foaming mad dog, kill everything in sight, well, needless to say they're likely to pick up a certain amount of distrust of Palestinians. Can't really think why but it's so.

Still, I can only imagine the shock and horror there would be in Israel if some Israeli commados were given the mission to sneak into Palestinine, find a large group, say, a busy market, and open fire with machine guns and grenades on everyone present. Such an operation would bring down the government.

But the equivilent? The attackers would be considered heros in Palestine, and Palestinian women would be out wailing and yodelling in glee while Palestinian men would be dancing in the streets.

This conflict isn't a proxy for your bigoted worldview, sorry - you don't get to play other people's lives.

Your own worldview seems to be that of Jew bashing wrapped in self-righteous ignorance.

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Sure, do you know what international law says about military occupation?

Yes actually. Not sure what your point is though, Occupiers have certain responsibilities is pretty much all that is said about it.

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JB once again you make many comments and I will respond to sum;

"Sure, do you know what international law says about military occupation?"

Do you? Care to explain why you will only discuss it when it comes to Israel but no one else?

"Do you know what the UN says about the Israeli occupation?"

Say now is that the same UN that saysnothing about Sudan and Zimbabwe and Hamas and Hezbollah and China, etc., if your point is the UN is blatantly selective and hippocritical because the countries that sit on the Human Rights committees are all gross human rights violators and so has zero credibility precisely for what it does NOT say, yes I know.

"Good, so we both agree that both sides are out of step with international law."

Israel most certainly violates international law but you have no clue why. Can you make an effort to find out why rather then mistating what you think is the violation when it is not the reason for the violation?

Israel is not violating international law because it is on the West Bank. The West Bank was never a sovereign nation. Under international law you can not occupy a country if it has never been a country. The West Bank has always been disputed territory.

Israel violates international law not because it is on the West Bank but because it governs Israelis on the west Bank with an Israeli civilian government but Palestinians under its military government. It violates international law precisely because it will not annex the West Bank bexcause it has been trying for years to come up with a two state solution that would turn the West Bank into a second Palestinian state.

"Even with Israel's policy of underminding the PA to a point where they were not capable of living up to their end of the bargain..."

Again you make sweeping accusations with no proof. Since when are the PA a bunch of blithering morons under Israel's spell? What a ridiculous stereotype of Israelis being mind control manipulators. Gee I wonder where that stereoype comes from. Never heard it before.

You state;

"A former US ambassador to the Israel and Egypt agrees with me and he was an architect of the Israeli-Egyptian peace accords."

He agrees with you? I note you did not say you agree with him. Lol. Listen up just who is the Ambassador and what did he say. I note you did not reference his name or his actual comments. Why is that? How is one to debate you when you do not provide a basis for your opinions?

You stated;

"True, and Israel's offers have time and time again been lopsided in their favour (see: West Bank Cantonment)"

Right. Israel offered Arafat 97% of the land he asked for. Sounds lopsided to me. Kind of like that swap for the two dead bodies right?

Where I really take umbrage with your comments is in the following statement where you claim you need assistance in defining what homicide and terrorism is;

" I'd like to see an article, because often times the definition of if someone's a murderer or not is determined by what side of the (security) fence you're on) ".

Right. Samir Kuntar did not murder anyone nor was he a terrorist. You need a definition from an article to understand that further. When he took the three year old girl's head and smashed it on the rock that needs further clarification.

You stated;

"I wasn't aware that Israel unilaterally withdrew..."

Yes evidently you seem to be unaware of a lot of things.

Your simplistic description of what Israel is doing with the Gaza borders reflects your deliberate selectivity in ignoring the ground situation and why Israel needs to restricts its border to prevent terror attacks. You also again repeat the demonization myth stating Israel has no reason to try secure its border other then to be evil and hurt Palestinians. Your need to constantly assign Israel demon motives simply reflects your bias and it blinds you to any balanced discussion rendering your comments nothing more then unsubstantiated name calling.

Here let's cut to the chase shall we? Israel is poo. Israelis are poo faces. The IDF are poo faces and demons.

You state;

"When Israel launches a missile at a car in a crowded market, it KNOWS it will kill civilians, it just doesn't care, because Palestinian lives aren't worth anything in Israeli politics and society - which is exactly why Israel behaves with what I call a murderous recklessness in choosing it's targets."

Read my lips, the above statement is a vicious and blatant negative stereotype. It assigns negative motive to the IDF with zero basis for this assumption.

You know nothing of the IDF and what it does on the ground or in the air. You have never been there, you do not know the threatre and conditions it is faced in and operates within-you don't know the tactics it uses to avoid killing innocent civilians thereby placing its soldiers in danger.

You provide zero evidence for your subjective comments.

I would love to be able to take you and place the body parts from a terrorist attack all over it and ask you to tell me which part of those kidneys and spleens are Palestinian and which ones are Israeli.

Yet another security expert sitting in Canada pontificating as to how to handle terrorists.

Right.

Here is my favourite comment from you though;

"This conflict isn't a proxy for your bigoted worldview, sorry - you don't get to play other people's lives."

Do you even read what you write? Do you ever stop to think what a hippocrate you sound like? Read back the

last sentence. You think your views on Israel and terrorism do not reflect your bigoted views? Do your comments not play with the lives of Israelis? Um uh um uh.

Oy. Jimmy Swaggart?

Edited by Rue
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Rue, I can see someone hit a nerve here.

The actual disputes over land on the West Bank are not international disputes but domestic ones.

I guess Gaza is in the same boat?? When the former state of Palestine was broken up to create Israel, this now becomes an international dispute, because it involves two or more countries. We all have heard of the illegal settlements Israel is building in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. So in order to get around the international dispute, they are categorized as non-nations. Which strikes me as odd since Gaza and West Bank have their own government and military. But not a recognized one by international standards because they are consideres non nations.

But the UN mandate was to break up the Caliphate to create Israel after WWII. Glad the Caliphate had a say in it. This was already an international dispute before Israel was even created.

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