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Anthrax suspect commits suicide


Guest American Woman

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I'm glad you think the over 1 million civilian deaths in Iraq is laughing matter.

And the fact your constitution is in tatters after Patriot Act I

Just wait for Patriot Act II

I think that it is suspicious that it was an American in the American Army attacking America with high grade anthrax(one of the top researchers). I also find it suspicious that he would directly link the anthrax letters with 9/11 and portray himself as a Muslim. And what about the traces of anthrax that were found and unreported until much later? Does that not suggest that some anthrax had to have been opened/transported? And I don't think it's that unreasonable to make that speculative leap given he was a high ranking official in the military, it coincided with mobilizing the publics support to war against "islamofascism", and the base at which the contamination occurred was also the same location that investigated the incident.

With your broad focus of imagination enlighten me as to why you perceive Ivin's had the need to frame Muslims and link the anthrax attacks to 9/11?

I didn't make that connection up, its in the letters, it was used by ABC in which they said it was produced by Iraq and contributed to the invasion.

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I'm glad you think the over 1 million civilian deaths in Iraq is laughing matter.

Al Qaeda sure thinks so!

And the fact your constitution is in tatters after Patriot Act I

Just wait for Patriot Act II

So sad....I think I will leave....maybe move to.....Cleveland! :lol:

I think that it is suspicious that it was an American in the American Army attacking America with high grade anthrax(one of the top researchers). I also find it suspicious that he would directly link the anthrax letters with 9/11 and portray himself as a Muslim. And what about the traces of anthrax that were found and unreported until much later? Does that not suggest that some anthrax had to have been opened/transported?

In the "American Army"? No wonder you think everything is so suspicious. You need to do more homework and at least demonstrate some understanding about how we roll down here with defense contractors and research scientists. Your allegations only suggest another good bad fairy tale.

And I don't think it's that unreasonable to make that speculative leap given he was a high ranking official in the military, it coincided with mobilizing the publics support to war against "islamofascism", and the base at which the contamination occurred was also the same location that investigated the incident.

See above.

With your broad focus of imagination enlighten me as to why you perceive Ivin's had the need to frame Muslims and link the anthrax attacks to 9/11?

Plausible alibi? Just a guess.

I didn't make that connection up, its in the letters, it was used by ABC in which they said it was produced by Iraq and contributed to the invasion.

No, we pretty much were kicking Iraq's ass since 1991....with or without Ivin's anthrax.

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Obsidian

In what possible scenario could the anthrax scare not be a conspiracy then?

I mean, if the FBI found that the anthrax came from another country, would you have thought that reasonable and that there was no conspiracy? or rather would have you been here telling us it was a coverup?

Please be honest.

Originaly there was thoughts that Al-Queda had something to do with the anthraxed mail. The center at FT Detrick was also on the list. I really find it odd that they can have both Al-Queda (reasonable intellegence showed that it was) and US army scientists as suspects in this case. The Al-Queda move to me is a distraction, because in the end , there is more proof to say that it was a US Army scientist.

What if they investigated and after years they admitted that they still didn't know where the anthrax came from? Wouldn't that be evidence of a coverup?

Well, if they can't find Bin Laden, then chances are they won't ever find out the real source of the anthrax.

Wouldn't an investigation pointing TO a US defence department employee be the LEAST desireable to the conspirators in the US government?

Yes indeed.

I mean, don't be offended when I ask what scenario would be possible for you to NOT think that there was a 'conpiracy' here?

I'll make the argument of the US's track record when it comes to giving out information. Since the run up to the Iraq invasion, there has been much propaganda(if you will) that went sour after the facts have been revealed. WMDs, no WMDs. The goal was to oust Saddam and get at the oil in Iraq. Nothing more. But all we heard is 'freedom'.

The lies were clear, but worded in a way that the average person can't really tell what is going on. Also say a few words to make it sound like Iraq had something to do with 9/11, and you have surefire support for whatever you want to do. With a population that is already hurt/sad/angry, you can take advantage of those ignorant people and say that A is B. Smart people will figure it out and say .. wait .. but all your evidence shows A is actually A. Then you get called a tin foil hat guy.

People do not want to beleive that governments of their respected countries do not engage in illegal activity. They hope their country adhears to 'International Law'. But in many cases, those laws are broken, time and time again.

So it makes sense to me that governments no only play against other countries, but it's own citizens.

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So basically you distrust government so therefore everything they do is a conspiracy?

And you have not a shread of proof to support any of your conspiracy's that isn't easily explained with a much more plausible solution.

Seems intellectually lazy to me.

But whatever floats your boat.

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So basically you distrust government so therefore everything they do is a conspiracy?

And you have not a shread of proof to support any of your conspiracy's that isn't easily explained with a much more plausible solution.

Seems intellectually lazy to me.

But whatever floats your boat.

I don't distrust everything the government does, but to go to the other end and take every word the government says at face value and you are in trouble as well. Scrutinize the government. It works for you, remember?

There are criminals in the government, plain and simple. Some of these criminals will work together for a goal. That is the crux of a conspiracy.

Some of those plausible solutions are not only plausible, but happening right now. Many took the WMDs that the US was talking about at face value, only to discover later that most of the intelligence was handpicked and packaged in a certain way. This is a conspiracy against the Amercian population.

Hell, when the CIA was doing tests on the American citizens in the 60's 50's and people talked about it, they were considered tin foil hat wearin guys. Most knew the CIA was plausibly doing these actions, and now we know for a fact that the CIA took part in some very strange experiments. Not only on American citizens, but their own military. MKULTRA for example, was used unkowingly on the troops in Vietnam. The CIA is probably still doing experiments, but this information will not be declassified for another 20 to 30 years after the current crisis has passed.

Now if the CIA took part in these experiments, you MUST have higher ups signing off on this stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA

Although the CIA insists that MK-ULTRA-type experiments have been abandoned, 14-year CIA veteran Victor Marchetti has stated in various interviews that the CIA routinely conducts disinformation campaigns and that CIA mind control research continued. In a 1977 interview, Marchetti specifically called the CIA claim that MK-ULTRA was abandoned a 'cover story.'.[6][7]

So you can also have a conspiracy to cover another conspiracy. Lies to cover lies. IF you doubt it is happening, then you are a fool. If you think everything is a conspiracy, then you are also a fool.

Recently, I saw a report on CNN about soldiers who were given a flu vaccine but was never reported on their record. One man is now seriously ill because of the vaccine which did not show up on his record untill after the illness was discovered.

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9/11 conspiracy theories of every version are not plausible or realistic in anyways.

The sheer size required for the conspiracy to proceed is large enough to dismiss out of hand.

Clingly stubbornly to it requires intellectual leaps of faith that shows no real interest in the truth, just a flailing for some facts, anything that will fit a pre-conceived TRVTH about what happened. Alot of psychologists chalk this up to a coping mechanism and say that for some, it is difficult to believe that people can be so inhumane to each other. They can. And to add to it and insist that the anthrax scare that followed soon after 9/11 was also a conspiracy is just more of the same silliness.

The last conspiracy that was discovered that I can remember is the ADSCAM scandal here in Canada.

Do you think the CIA also killed JFK? Do you the the illuminati/skull and bones/knights templars/jews secretly control the world?

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9/11 conspiracy theories of every version are not plausible or realistic in anyways.

Most of the movies out there regarding 9/11 are garbage. I know Loose Change is thrown around quite a bit, and this is the one most people have been exposed to. Loose Change is the worst 9/11 documentary/conspriacy film out there. I have watched about 10 to 15 different ones out there so far.

The sheer size required for the conspiracy to proceed is large enough to dismiss out of hand.

You'd be surprised on how few people it would take to carry this out. Departmentalization takes care of that.

Clingly stubbornly to it requires intellectual leaps of faith that shows no real interest in the truth, just a flailing for some facts, anything that will fit a pre-conceived TRVTH about what happened. Alot of psychologists chalk this up to a coping mechanism and say that for some, it is difficult to believe that people can be so inhumane to each other. They can. And to add to it and insist that the anthrax scare that followed soon after 9/11 was also a conspiracy is just more of the same silliness.

I'd say clinging to the notion it was not a conspiracy might put you in the same category.

The last conspiracy that was discovered that I can remember is the ADSCAM scandal here in Canada.

Do you think the CIA also killed JFK? Do you the the illuminati/skull and bones/knights templars/jews secretly control the world?

ADSCAM was a conspiracy. It took only a few people behind closed doors to accomplish all this. They conspired to steal/launder money. I don't know enough about JFK to make a decision. I really don't care to talk about illuminati or skull and bones ect ... whenever those are brought up, ... tinfoil... I prefer to stay away from talking about them. I don't believe they actually exist.

To tell you the truth, the reason I started doubting 9/11 because of Loose Change. Once looking into it further, there is better information out there. Once I started that, I realized that Loose Change was grasping at many straws, but yet this is the movie that garnered so much attention to the 9/11 truth movements. Because Loose Change is so horribly done, it makes most think we are the tinfoil hat crowd. It simply is a horrible documentary.

Let me find a few of the others I think are better and list them. Some of them are long, but worth it.

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You do realize that sometimes conspiracy theories are later proven correct, right?

Therefore every half baked notion thought up by every hysterical neurotic nut should be taken seriously? Is that the argument being posited for this one?

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Therefore every half baked notion thought up by every hysterical neurotic nut should be taken seriously? Is that the argument being posited for this one?

Like the notion of WMDs in Iraq?? That sure was taken seriously. (Eventhough that was never the goal), and look at the results. Some hysterical nut job took that seriously and sent the troops over.

And of course you should not take everything seriously, because they are not conspiracy theories untill they are FULLY baked.

In watching the news over the weekend, on several channels, there was plenty of talk about how many holes there were in the official story. The lawyer for Mr. Ivins is challenging most of it.

Let me ask you this. If you know that a person is mentally unstable (Ivins was beleived to have mental issues) why would you let him even get close to the Anthrax, let alone have him as a scientists where he has almost unlimited access to the material.

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Guest American Woman

I've also wondered why the government would give a mentally unstable person unlimited access to anthrax. Furthermore, they thought they had their man before, then ended up paying Steven Hatfill $5.8 million dollars for wrongly accusing him. If they can be that wrong once, they could be that wrong twice. It's like you said, there are a lot of holes in the official story. Too many unanswered questions.

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I've also wondered why the government would give a mentally unstable person unlimited access to anthrax. Furthermore, they thought they had their man before, then ended up paying Steven Hatfill $5.8 million dollars for wrongly accusing him. If they can be that wrong once, they could be that wrong twice. It's like you said, there are a lot of holes in the official story. Too many unanswered questions.

Why is it when people find obvious holes in the official story they are considered "tinfoil hat nutjobs"?

For Steven Hatfill, they never even arrested him. He was always considered a person of interest, but never arrested for the anthrax mails. Not to mention he was never charged. So, the FBI and CIA had nothing they could use against Hatfill.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/05/19/hatfill/index.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A...anguage=printer

The FBI was tailing him for some time. No one found anything on him. He sued, got lots of cash.

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Why is it when people find obvious holes in the official story they are considered "tinfoil hat nutjobs"?

...and why is it that when government can't possibly have the perfect story it is considered a conspiracy?

For Steven Hatfill, they never even arrested him. He was always considered a person of interest, but never arrested for the anthrax mails. Not to mention he was never charged. So, the FBI and CIA had nothing they could use against Hatfill.

Another conspiracy....not charging a man because of insufficient evidence....on my!

The FBI was tailing him for some time. No one found anything on him. He sued, got lots of cash.

So did Maher Arar.

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I'm glad you think the over 1 million civilian deaths in Iraq is laughing matter.

Siure you didn't mean a billion? I realize the older toasters have problems with big numbers....

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...and why is it that when government can't possibly have the perfect story it is considered a conspiracy?

No story is perfect. But again, when obvious holes are discovered, why is it then a tinfoil hat thing, when it is obvious and right in front of your face?

Another conspiracy....not charging a man because of insufficient evidence....on my!

So, would you put a mentaly unstable person in a facility where he has access to the deadly anthrax? I mean, you already put one (or two) in the White House. SO I guess the answer is yes.

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IF there was a billion Iraqi's you might be right. Somehow I don't think the toaster has anything on you.

Oh so your toaster tells you there have been one million dead too? Sure you don't mean a trillion? Maybe there are 6 trillion iraqis building a pipeline and giving their oil to the US and it's a gov't conspiracy telling you there are less....

I don't eat toast, I use a conspiration device....

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Oh so your toaster tells you there have been one million dead too? Sure you don't mean a trillion? Maybe there are 6 trillion iraqis building a pipeline and giving their oil to the US and it's a gov't conspiracy telling you there are less....

I don't eat toast, I use a conspiration device....

I like toast. Kraft Extra Creamy peanut butter is the best really.

If you like being disingenuous (aka a smart ass) then keep going. One million Iraqi dead is an estimated number of Iraqi civilian deaths. Are you sure it is not a billion, a trillion? Durrrr. Many know that the population of Iraq is much less than the US. There are not a trillion Americans, hell there are not even a billion. The only two countries with a billion people are China and India. DURRRRRRR.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/11/world/mi...casualties.html

They estimate over 600000 civilian deaths. This was published in October 11, 2006.

A couple years have passed since then. That number is larger I assume.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issue...0616burying.htm

The numbers are ominous, since in the 1991 Persian Gulf war, 3,500 civilians died in the fighting, and in the months after, 111,000 Iraqis died from the destruction of the nation's health care and transportation infrastructure, according to Beth Osborne Daponte, a professor at Carnegie Mellon University.

That was in 1991, when Iraq has some kind of military to fight back with. So the million deaths are either a direct result of collateral damage and failed support infrastructures (water electricity, food). Even now you have the US asking the Iraqi government to pitch in the oil profit money. This tells me that the reconstruction of Iraq is not going very well.

It might be a high estimate with the 1 million, but when you factor in unintended civilian deaths from military strikes, people dying because of lack of food, water, roof over the head. You can easily reach this number.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5425a1.htm

Smoking kills half a million Americans every year. Is that a bullshit number as well?

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I like toast. Kraft Extra Creamy peanut butter is the best really.

If you like being disingenuous (aka a smart ass) then keep going. One million Iraqi dead is an estimated number of Iraqi civilian deaths.

A couple years have passed since then. That number**** is larger I assume.

Smoking kills half a million Americans every year. Is that a bullshit number as well?

One million is not an estimation, that is a wild guess.

There is an accurate count, it is not based on wishful thinking....

“We don’t do body counts”

General Tommy Franks

Iraq Body Count

Documented civilian deaths from violence

86,609 – 94,490

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Smoking kills half a million Americans every year. Is that a bullshit number as well?

An a lot of Iraqis smoke too....and you smoke more when you are under stress....ergo, all the smoking deaths should be attributed the the war....death toll estamate now in the gazillions....

***Toaster guesstimate

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Guest American Woman
Why is it when people find obvious holes in the official story they are considered "tinfoil hat nutjobs"?

Even the article I cited referred to his arrest as "the sudden naming of scientist Bruce E. Ivins as the top — and perhaps only — suspect in the anthrax attacks marks the latest bizarre twist in a case that has confounded the FBI for nearly seven years."

"The latest bizarre twist" seems an appropriate description to me. But no one better question anything these days or they are a conspiracy theorist nut ball. So anyone who questioned Hatfill being a suspect had to have been a conspiracy theorist nut job, too-- who turned out to be right.

Seems to me that when people don't have any answers to questions that are raised, and they can't just keep quiet, they have to accuse the person doing the questioning of being a conspiracy theorist nut job. Such an intelligent rebuttal is difficult to argue, eh? :rolleyes:

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Even the article I cited referred to his arrest as "the sudden naming of scientist Bruce E. Ivins as the top — and perhaps only — suspect in the anthrax attacks marks the latest bizarre twist in a case that has confounded the FBI for nearly seven years."

"The latest bizarre twist" seems an appropriate description to me. But no one better question anything these days or they are a conspiracy theorist nut ball. So anyone who questioned Hatfill being a suspect had to have been a conspiracy theorist nut job, too-- who turned out to be right.

Seems to me that when people don't have any answers to questions that are raised, and they can't just keep quiet, they have to accuse the person doing the questioning of being a conspiracy theorist nut job. Such an intelligent rebuttal is difficult to argue, eh? :rolleyes:

Well actually, the conspiracy theories offered in this very thread were providing answers.

Obsidian said it was a cover up. He/she was not asking questions, he said that the American government conspired to poison Americans to up the terror so as to make sure support was high enough for the Iraq war.

Anyone who did not agree was a sheeple or some other such thing.

What were you reading?

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